AlanC9 wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
And none of my Sheps live. Even the good destroy ones eventually die of thirst from being trapped in the Citadel without anyone helping them. What a way to go.
Well, if you want to headcanon that, it's your right.
Nothing in game contradicts it either.
Did you even read the comment? How would you be greatly rewarded from the choice were talking about, were talking about everyone dying and the next cycle winning, but with it shown in cutscenes. How the **** is that some huge reward? That's just what we should have received in Refuse instead of Shep looking like some dude just stole his ice cream then a fade to black.HYR 2.0 wrote...
Baa Baa wrote...
Once again, I agree with you 100 percentRyzaki wrote...
HYR 2.0 wrote...
Applepie_Svk wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
Oh there's a giant middle finger. But no it's not because Shep lost. But rather that he went down like a chump, there's a quick fade to black and via twitter canon we learn the next cycle derped and went along with starbrat anyway despite being told the crucible didn't work.
That was the middle finger.
dis...
The fade-to-black is a mercy, unless you want me to believe you'd feel less offended by the presentation if they made you witness the horrific death of your character and everyone else in the galaxy. Somehow, I don't buy it.
And since when have we believed things Mike Gamble says on twitter that we don't want to believe? Why start?
Actually I would've preferred it to be bittersweet. yes you show the cycle being reaped but you also show the next cycle winning...on their terms. THAT would've made it a worthy ending. What we got was a middle finger. (We also should see the Geth dying in destroy and Shep reunited with the crew if he/she's alive.) I have no problem with consequences I just want payoff. Refuse is currently all consequences with no payoff.
Let me get this straight: people expect to be rewarded for making a decision that they were warned against taking?
Sorry fans, this is cut-and-dried.
See: Morinth, sex with (Mass Effect 2).
Taboo-XX wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
And who are you to tell someone what their honor is? To some honor is stoning a raped woman, to others it's protecting the weak, to others not lying, others serving a country. You can't tell my Shepard he lost his honor. Maybe your version of honor but his was perfectly intact. So no my renedouche lost nothing in his war. His honor bade him to protect those he could and cast off those he couldn't as well as defeating his enemy no matter the cost. He did that. Saying he lost his honor is wrong. His honor is perfectly intact. He saved the majority of the human race and got rid of the Reapers. That's what he set out to do, that's what his honor bade him.
Your Shep's honor is most likely different sure doesn't mean mine lost his.
You just brought this into the "rape" territory. Any traversing here is going to end in nasty debates.
We'll simply have to agree to disagree.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 septembre 2012 - 09:46 .
Mcfly616 wrote...
what's your point? They have Reaper upgrades. Destroy will affect themBill Casey wrote...
An entire race is a hell of a lot of collateral damage...
Around one billion Geth platforms and more in the servers...
You seem surprised the you may lose a race or two.....or that you lost 1billion in order to save 20 billion.
Why though? Why does this surprise you when it has been drilled into our heads from the get go that "hey, we're not going to be able to save everyone. It might come down to ruthless calculus".....?
AlanC9 wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
Honestly though Alan if you're life's on the line would you waste resources trying to build the Crucible (which you have no idea if it'll even BACKFIRE or not. The thing could kill you along with the Reapers and you have no way of guessing this) or would you build something that's worked constantly ever cycle (to kill Reapers and just Reapers other than the usual friendly fire) but no cycle had enough of because they had no true forewarning?
With some more time to study it, they probably figure out what the Catalyst does. Hell, maybe Liara herself figured it out in the decades she lived before the Reapers killed her, although that's unlikely since she doesn't have access to the Citadel anymore.
The important question is which project you can get away with before the Reapers ring down the curtain on your cycle. Building gigantic dreadnought fleets, or the Crucible? Big as it is, the Crucible is still cheaper, quicker, and easier to hide.
iakus wrote...
AlanC9 wrote...
Yep. Taboo-XX and you apparently don't agree on what's fun. When I play RPGs, I think it's fun to have my character make tough decisionsand live with the consequencestoo.
In Arrival, my Shepard tried to warn the colony. He told Hackett if he could have saved them he would have. In ME3 he even apologized to a dying batarian for what happened at Bahak.
That's good stuff. That's living with the consequences.
ME3's endings, where does Shepard live with the consequences? Heck, Shepard doesn't even live in most endings.
Where does Shepard have a final conversation and apology with EDI? Where does he try to warn the geth?
Where is Shepard's explanation to Hackett for creating a new Catalyst to control the Reapers? What does he tell the crew?
Where's the reasoning behind forced Synthesis of the galaxy? Shepard doesn't have to go through life with glowing green eyes and an "understanding" of all life. Nor face those who never asked for this.
These may be tough (I'd call them "insane") decisions, but Shepard doesn't have to deal with the consequences.
Ryzaki wrote...
I doubt it. They'd have to start modifiying the Citadel since the Crucible was just a giant battery.
Then they'd have 2 years tops to study it because once they start messing with the Citadel the Reapers will bumrush them. (and this is assuming the Reapers didn't wise up and fix the relay into darkspace. In which case they'd have a few days at best).
Modifié par AlanC9, 12 septembre 2012 - 09:50 .
For truth to be what it is, it won't matter how long or short your lifespan. That's the nice thing about truth...Mcfly616 wrote...
given the Catalyst has been around many millions of years longer than you or I, I'm thinking he's more attuned to what will happen. But you're free to think you know something you couldnt possibly understand(given how short our lifespans are)
And I think Taboo, was referring to the fact that each choice logically includes a sacrifice. He's not referring to the catalysts logic, or saying that you need to believe that logic. (That's the way I took it anyway)
Besides, when it comes to the Catalysts logic "your belief is not required"
a realist is not the same thing as a pessimist. And just because I'm not trying to rationalize the decision with "oh there's a Geth data stash" does not mean I'm a pessimist. And I never tried to justify anything. While you see the decision as 'Bioware is forcing me to commit genocide in order to win',Sauruz wrote...
But you're being just as realistic/pessimistic as I am. The only difference is that you're making up excuses to justify your decision. A true optimist would say something like "The Geth could be recreated" or "There must be some kind of Geth data stashed somewhere that can be salvaged". Saying "The Geth were already damned" is just cynical.Mcfly616 wrote...
I didn't "damn" the Geth. I'm sorry if you prefer to see things that way. Life must be miserable when you always look at things in a negative light. The Geth were damned the minute they were given Reaper upgrades. My mission is to destroy the Reapers. Destroy purges Reaper tech and as a result it also destroys the Geth. I didn't give them the upgrades. It's an unfortunate circumstance and nothing moreSauruz wrote...
You can classify everything as "collateral damage". Choosing between Destroy and Refuse basically boils down to whether you want to damn the Geth or let the galaxy go through an extreme population bottleneck. The Protheans managed to get their race into the next cycle. And we are much better prepared, which Javik admits himself.Mcfly616 wrote...
the Geth and EDI are simply collateral damage. Choosing destroy, effects all Reaper tech. I'm gonna go ahead and say it makes perfect sense that it would affect EDI and the Geth too(seeing as how they are upgraded with Reaper tech and all)
Yet, some people are just a "glass half empty" and choose to see it as a monstrous genocide lol.
Modifié par Mcfly616, 12 septembre 2012 - 09:54 .
that's the point, my friendBill Casey wrote...
Mcfly616 wrote...
what's your point? They have Reaper upgrades. Destroy will affect themBill Casey wrote...
An entire race is a hell of a lot of collateral damage...
Around one billion Geth platforms and more in the servers...
You seem surprised the you may lose a race or two.....or that you lost 1billion in order to save 20 billion.
Why though? Why does this surprise you when it has been drilled into our heads from the get go that "hey, we're not going to be able to save everyone. It might come down to ruthless calculus".....?
It doesn't surprise me...
It weighs heavily on me...
AlanC9 wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
I doubt it. They'd have to start modifiying the Citadel since the Crucible was just a giant battery.
Assuming it's been modified. If docking the first Crucible really did change the Catalyst, as he says and as his actions bear out, he won't have done this.Then they'd have 2 years tops to study it because once they start messing with the Citadel the Reapers will bumrush them. (and this is assuming the Reapers didn't wise up and fix the relay into darkspace. In which case they'd have a few days at best).
That's an argument against getting away with building a dreadnought fleet too. Now, I can see how Shepard's idiocy in Refuse might doom all future cycles too, but that isn't what the game shows us.
Ryzaki wrote...
AlanC9 wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
And none of my Sheps live. Even the good destroy ones eventually die of thirst from being trapped in the Citadel without anyone helping them. What a way to go.
Well, if you want to headcanon that, it's your right.
Yup. Nothing in game contradicts it either.
I can cope with sacrifice. Individuals die every moment. That's a part of life. I can't allow myself to take away the future of an entire race.Mcfly616 wrote...
what's your point? They have Reaper upgrades. Destroy will affect themBill Casey wrote...
An entire race is a hell of a lot of collateral damage...
Around one billion Geth platforms and more in the servers...
You seem surprised the you may lose a race or two.....or that you lost 1billion in order to save 20 billion.
Why though? Why does this surprise you when it has been drilled into our heads from the get go that "hey, we're not going to be able to save everyone. It might come down to ruthless calculus".....?
You are deluded. You are talking as if Destroy is the only choice that ends the Reaper threat. It was an active choice of you despite there being at least two other options and you are fully responsible for the consequences.because I know I never committed genocide. Have fun with that
Modifié par Wayning_Star, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:06 .
iakus wrote...
AlanC9 wrote...
Yep. Taboo-XX and you apparently don't agree on what's fun. When I play RPGs, I think it's fun to have my character make tough decisions and live with the consequences too.
In Arrival, my Shepard tried to warn the colony. He told Hackett if he could have saved them he would have. In ME3 he even apologized to a dying batarian for what happened at Bahak.
That's good stuff. That's living with the consequences.
ME3's endings, where does Shepard live with the consequences? Heck, Shepard doesn't even live in most endings.
Where does Shepard have a final conversation and apology with EDI? Where does he try to warn the geth?
Where is Shepard's explanation to Hackett for creating a new Catalyst to control the Reapers? What does he tell the crew?
Where's the reasoning behind forced Synthesis of the galaxy? Shepard doesn't have to go through life with glowing green eyes and an "understanding" of all life. Nor face those who never asked for this.
These may be tough (I'd call them "insane") decisions, but Shepard doesn't have to deal with the consequences.
Who says he lives?Taboo-XX wrote...
And my Shepard does live. He has to live with the choice he makes. But there will be good times ahead as well as bad.
That's what life is.
drayfish wrote...
I agree with this sentiment wholly - but not your conclusion. Why we fight wars is crucial. We don't do it just to keep breathing, we do it because our freedoms and autonomy are threatened. We do it to preserve our beliefs. Societies are bound by the respect for life; children learn from the example (and mistakes) of the past.
And that is why, truly, I find the Stargazer scene one of the most hideous additions to the game: because what it implies is that Shepard's descision to violate the universe (whatever she chose) has now been passed down into mythology as a noble act - one that should be cherished and learned from. The Shepard saved us all, by doing something utterly amoral.
If the civilisations of the future are born out of a belief that the imposition of a singular will upon all life is a good thing - indeed the only way for our beliefs to prosper - what does that say about the value of that life?
HYR 2.0 wrote...
drayfish wrote...
I agree with this sentiment wholly - but not your conclusion. Why we fight wars is crucial. We don't do it just to keep breathing, we do it because our freedoms and autonomy are threatened. We do it to preserve our beliefs. Societies are bound by the respect for life; children learn from the example (and mistakes) of the past.
And that is why, truly, I find the Stargazer scene one of the most hideous additions to the game: because what it implies is that Shepard's descision to violate the universe (whatever she chose) has now been passed down into mythology as a noble act - one that should be cherished and learned from. The Shepard saved us all, by doing something utterly amoral.
If the civilisations of the future are born out of a belief that the imposition of a singular will upon all life is a good thing - indeed the only way for our beliefs to prosper - what does that say about the value of that life?
The US allied with a man worse than Hitler to fight the Axis powers. Then again, we're here now. The N@zi party is not (not on that level, anyway). Later, we stood up against Stalin, and we have gotten better with our principles on race.
That's all it comes down to, in the end. If we want to preserve our beliefs, we have to actually get there in the end by winning the war. Your actions in the war don't define society forever.
People can think what they may of Shepard's actions to win the war, but at least they are alive to do so. Meanwhile, they will almost surely come to a consensus opinion on the Reapers having been in the wrong for cycles of genocide, which serves a nice purpose going forward.
OTOH, if the Reapers win, those who go on to serve them will say that *you* were wrong. Like Dr. Kenson concluding people are foolish to fight the Reapers since they let life continue (indoctrinated, but the propoganda is made possible by Refuse!Shep's choke in the 11th hour).
Baa Baa wrote...
Did you even read the comment? How would you be greatly rewarded from the choice were talking about, were talking about everyone dying and the next cycle winning, but with it shown in cutscenes. How the **** is that some huge reward? That's just what we should have received in Refuse instead of Shep looking like some dude just stole his ice cream then a fade to black.
Yate wrote...
THIS THREAD IS NOT TO **** ABOUT THE GAME. THERE ARE OTHER THREADS FOR THAT. THERE'S BEEN ENOUGH HATRED FLYING AROUND THE INTERNET AND I DON'T WANT ANY OF THAT HERE.
@ BioWare:
Look, you guys screwed up. Happens to the best of us. And it's OK. Extended Cut was awesome. There are always going to be people who don't like it, but at least now the series has a proper ending. Thank you.
The community gave you a lot of sh*t, some of it was deserved, but a lot wasn't. I think most of us realize that, and most of us don't hate you. Not really. We just want to see Shepard and friends get the best possible send-off. What we do, we do out of genuine love.
Of course, there are those who have sworn of BioWare games forever. I get that it's hard to see fans turn on you. But that doesn't excuse Refusal.
Let's get the obvious out of the way first. Refusal is not an ending. It's an insult. It's a big "F you" to the players. It was supposed to give the player a way out, a way to avoid stepping through plot hoops they didn't want. Except that choice had never been offered before. Shepard never refused to save the galaxy before. In fact, Refusal is one thing that ANY Shepard wouldn't logically do. Hackett and everyone is depending on the crucible being activated, Shepard wouldn't let him down, wouldn't give up everything fought for just to make a point.
Look, I get the decision to make it impossible to defeat the Reapers without the crucible. I agree with it, in fact. Anything else would've made the Reapers look too weak and/or stupid. But that's no reason to include Refusal. It's painfully obvious that everyone's hopes are on the crucible, and without it we lose. We get it. We don't need a fake ending to drive the point home.
There is no adequate story or gameplay reason to include Refusal. So what is it doing there?
Simple. It's BioWare telling their fans where to get off. It's not part of Shepard's story, or the Mass Effect universe. It's a direct message from BioWare corp. to you, the player. And the message is "F you. If you don't want our ending, you lose".
We get it. Some fans went too far. But that's not an excuse. This is beyond petty and immature. BioWare, this isn't the way to handle things. You don't wreck your magnum opus just to get back at people. The pressure for a different ending was done out of love for Mass Effect and the knowledge that you guys could have done a better job. Instead of just accepting you made a mistake and moving on, you chose to directly insult the people who love your creation.
If you don't want to change the endings, that's fine. But please, TALK TO US LIKE ADULTS. Explain why you made these endings, try and share the way you see it with us. I believe that you did your best to make a beautiful, meaningful ending for this series. We just want the same thing, and maybe if you'd open up this wall of hurtful silence you've been projecting ever since release the people here could see the endings the way you do.
Please, patch out Refusal. It spoils an otherwise beautiful piece of work. If you believe your endings are strong, then stick by your decision and don't insult us by giving a fake option.
Modifié par Jawsomebob, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:19 .
No, I want a Mass Effect like version whether the result is the same or not. Shepard wouldn't just stand there.HYR 2.0 wrote...
Baa Baa wrote...
Did you even read the comment? How would you be greatly rewarded from the choice were talking about, were talking about everyone dying and the next cycle winning, but with it shown in cutscenes. How the **** is that some huge reward? That's just what we should have received in Refuse instead of Shep looking like some dude just stole his ice cream then a fade to black.
So you want a glorified version of the same thing.
Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
Who says he lives?Taboo-XX wrote...
And my Shepard does live. He has to live with the choice he makes. But there will be good times ahead as well as bad.
That's what life is.
I Got this far.Yate wrote...
Extended Cut was awesome.
Modifié par Epique Phael767, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:19 .
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