338 réponses à ce sujet

[Snoopy1955]

Yate wrote...

thearbiter1337 wrote...

I would rather say "**** you" to the Catalyst then pick those 3 endings

And if that were an actual viable option, sure. But it's not, it doesn't fit into the universe or Shepard's character.

It fits into my Shepard's character. Really, if we are talking about options that don't fit into Shep's character, destroy does not fit into Shep's character.

This is a character who has spent the entirety of game three being sad, and tormented by dreams of a child that could not be saved back on earth. A shep who says "Yes, I will kill the geth and EDI to kill you." is not a Shep who is tormented by nightmares of the kid that could not be saved.

The problem is that Shepard is an idealist, or at least mine was.

My Sheppard made choices that saved everything. My Shep didn't kill the Rachnai, because even if they were horrifying space bugs, they were willing to help fight the reapers, and wiping out a species because of what they had done in the past, while curing the genophage after what the Krogan had done in the past and might do in the future wasn't realistic. This leaves my Shep with the options of control and Synthesis.

My shep knows that Synthesis isn't a happy option. My shep has been seeing what The Illusive man has been doing to his troops, and knows that Synthesis could be very much like that. My Shep has also been running around the galaxy telling anyone who would listen that it is the things that make them different that are their greatest strength. It doesn't make sense that he would make everyone the same.

This leaves control. My Shep is opposed to this option because multiple times he has stated that no one is ready to control the power of the Reapers. He has told TIM that they are too dangerous, and has witnessed first hand how dangerous a Reaper can be. Saying "Yes, I want to put my brain in a giant death machine that has already killed millions of people" doesn't sound like something my Shep would be willing to agree to.

Given that my Shep spent the game gathering as many forces for the final battle as possible, the option of looking at the Catalyst and saying "No, I don't like your choices, and I just happen to have brought a whole lot of friends to this fight, so lets see who wins." sounds very much like my Shepard. He has been telling people that the Reapers are not unbeatable, and has been telling people this for longer than the Crucible has been an option, and in fact, longer than people were willing to accept that the Reapers were a genuine threat. Taking up any of the choices before him is accepting that victory can't be achieved without sacrificing his ideals and beliefs.

Based on what my Shepard would do, I have to chose Refusal, because my Shepard believes in his friends, and in the combined might of the galaxy.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Baa Baa wrote...

Did you even read the comment? How would you be greatly rewarded from the choice were talking about, were talking about everyone dying and the next cycle winning, but with it shown in cutscenes. How the **** is that some huge reward? That's just what we should have received in Refuse instead of Shep looking like some dude just stole his ice cream then a fade to black.

So you want a glorified version of the same thing.

No, I want a Mass Effect like version whether the result is the same or not. Shepard wouldn't just stand there.

He probably bleeds out while stuck in the catalyst's chamber. Even if the Catalyst is nice enough to let him go back, he's doing worse than Tela Vasir in LotSB.

[Wayning_Star]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Baa Baa wrote...

Did you even read the comment? How would you be greatly rewarded from the choice were talking about, were talking about everyone dying and the next cycle winning, but with it shown in cutscenes. How the **** is that some huge reward? That's just what we should have received in Refuse instead of Shep looking like some dude just stole his ice cream then a fade to black.

So you want a glorified version of the same thing.

No, I want a Mass Effect like version whether the result is the same or not. Shepard wouldn't just stand there.

well, it's not too glamorous to get turned inside out and liquidated with nanobots... Fade to black pretty much covers the idea of it..without gore'n stuff.

But I understand why you'd want to see the story as written, it's just kind of gory.

[Wayning_Star]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Baa Baa wrote...

Did you even read the comment? How would you be greatly rewarded from the choice were talking about, were talking about everyone dying and the next cycle winning, but with it shown in cutscenes. How the **** is that some huge reward? That's just what we should have received in Refuse instead of Shep looking like some dude just stole his ice cream then a fade to black.

So you want a glorified version of the same thing.

No, I want a Mass Effect like version whether the result is the same or not. Shepard wouldn't just stand there.

He probably bleeds out while stuck in the catalyst's chamber. Even if the Catalyst is nice enough to let him go back, he's doing worse than Tela Vasir in LotSB.

really tho, I don't think Sheps up there 'in the flesh' anyways. The beam would of done him in, physically. It's all just a big brain party up there, all symbolism...But his 'last breath' down below would be just that..and some nasty abomination would come and snatch up his DNA and ectrolisis for safe keeping till the next cycle.. won by picking a correct choice..or something.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Baa Baa wrote...

Did you even read the comment? How would you be greatly rewarded from the choice were talking about, were talking about everyone dying and the next cycle winning, but with it shown in cutscenes. How the **** is that some huge reward? That's just what we should have received in Refuse instead of Shep looking like some dude just stole his ice cream then a fade to black.

So you want a glorified version of the same thing.

No, I want a Mass Effect like version whether the result is the same or not. Shepard wouldn't just stand there.

well, it's not too glamorous to get turned inside out and liquidated with nanobots... Fade to black pretty much covers the idea of it..without gore'n stuff.

But I understand why you'd want to see the story as written, it's just kind of gory.

Or an united Galaxy fighting to the end, however you want to perceive it, it's up to you.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Baa Baa wrote...

Did you even read the comment? How would you be greatly rewarded from the choice were talking about, were talking about everyone dying and the next cycle winning, but with it shown in cutscenes. How the **** is that some huge reward? That's just what we should have received in Refuse instead of Shep looking like some dude just stole his ice cream then a fade to black.

So you want a glorified version of the same thing.

No, I want a Mass Effect like version whether the result is the same or not. Shepard wouldn't just stand there.

He probably bleeds out while stuck in the catalyst's chamber. Even if the Catalyst is nice enough to let him go back, he's doing worse than Tela Vasir in LotSB.

Yeah, but he manages to survive in Destroy.....
Anyway he would do something contact hackett, make plans to try to survive till the next cycle, minimize Reaper numbers, etc.

[Mcfly616]

Sauruz wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

An entire race is a hell of a lot of collateral damage...
Around one billion Geth platforms and more in the servers...

what's your point? They have Reaper upgrades. Destroy will affect them

You seem surprised the you may lose a race or two.....or that you lost 1billion in order to save 20 billion.

Why though? Why does this surprise you when it has been drilled into our heads from the get go that "hey, we're not going to be able to save everyone. It might come down to ruthless calculus".....?

I can cope with sacrifice. Individuals die every moment. That's a part of life. I can't allow myself to take away the future of an entire race.
Because that's what happens. The Geth have a future that could possibly lead them anywhere. If you take Destroy it's simply gone. All potential, all what-ifs... just gone. And that they chose to upgrade themselves with Reaper technology doesn't change anything at all about that fact. You could argue that their might be manipulated by that, but you can't say that for certain. Not with a certainty that would allow you to damn their race.

because I know I never committed genocide. Have fun with that

You are deluded. You are talking as if Destroy is the only choice that ends the Reaper threat. It was an active choice of you despite there being at least two other options and you are fully responsible for the consequences.
Have fun with that.

Deluded? No....you are. For thinking that your point of view is the only one. My mission, since ME1 was to destroy the Reapers. I always complete my mission. I'm not going to second guess my beliefs at the very last minute, sorry. I didn't design the crucible. And the people that did design it, didn't direct its energy at the Geth. The Crucibles energy is directed at Reaper technology. The Geth have Reaper upgrades now unfortunately. And thats all it is: an unfortunate circumstance

[CronoDragoon]

Mcfly616 wrote...

And the people that did design it, didn't direct its energy at the Geth. The Crucibles energy is directed at Reaper technology. The Geth have Reaper upgrades now unfortunately. And thats all it is: an unfortunate circumstance

This is merely speculation. The Catalyst never says that it targets all Reaper tech, it says that it targets all synthetics. It's more plausible based on this description that the original function of the Crucible way back when was in fact to destroy all synthetics.

Your point still stands that Shepard didn't decide to target all synthetics instead of just the Reapers.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:27 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

And the people that did design it, didn't direct its energy at the Geth. The Crucibles energy is directed at Reaper technology. The Geth have Reaper upgrades now unfortunately. And thats all it is: an unfortunate circumstance

This is merely speculation. The Catalyst never says that it targets all Reaper tech, it says that it targets all synthetics. It's more plausible based on this description that the original function of the Crucible way back when was in fact to destroy all synthetics.

Your point still stands that Shepard didn't decide to target all synthetics instead of just the Reapers.

Damnit why do people keep bring up points I want to bring up? I can't jump in I keep getting ninja'd

[Mcfly616]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

And the people that did design it, didn't direct its energy at the Geth. The Crucibles energy is directed at Reaper technology. The Geth have Reaper upgrades now unfortunately. And thats all it is: an unfortunate circumstance

This is merely speculation. The Catalyst never says that it targets all Reaper tech, it says that it targets all synthetics. It's more plausible based on this description that the original function of the Crucible way back when was in fact to destroy all synthetics.

Your point still stands that Shepard didn't decide to target all synthetics instead of just the Reapers.

True. That's simply my perspective. Granted, this is one of those things that was left up to interpretation. And honestly I like some things to be left that way. Including the origins of the Crucible.

[M Hedonist]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Deluded? No....you are. For thinking that your point of view is the only one. My mission, since ME1 was to destroy the Reapers. I always complete my mission. I'm not going to second guess my beliefs at the very last minute, sorry. I didn't design the crucible. And the people that did design it, didn't direct its energy at the Geth. The Crucibles energy is directed at Reaper technology. The Geth have Reaper upgrades now unfortunately. And thats all it is: an unfortunate circumstance

I'm not saying my point of view is the only right one. Your Shepard killed a race. You can talk around the fact as much as you want, but that's what happened, ultimately. I'm just saying if you truly want to support your views you'd have to accept responsibility.

Modifié par Sauruz, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:34 .

[Bill Casey]

Refuse is the second best choice...
It's the only pickable ending besides Destroy...

[Wayning_Star]

Snoopy1955 wrote...

Yate wrote...

thearbiter1337 wrote...

I would rather say "**** you" to the Catalyst then pick those 3 endings

And if that were an actual viable option, sure. But it's not, it doesn't fit into the universe or Shepard's character.

It fits into my Shepard's character. Really, if we are talking about options that don't fit into Shep's character, destroy does not fit into Shep's character.

This is a character who has spent the entirety of game three being sad, and tormented by dreams of a child that could not be saved back on earth. A shep who says "Yes, I will kill the geth and EDI to kill you." is not a Shep who is tormented by nightmares of the kid that could not be saved.

The problem is that Shepard is an idealist, or at least mine was.

My Sheppard made choices that saved everything. My Shep didn't kill the Rachnai, because even if they were horrifying space bugs, they were willing to help fight the reapers, and wiping out a species because of what they had done in the past, while curing the genophage after what the Krogan had done in the past and might do in the future wasn't realistic. This leaves my Shep with the options of control and Synthesis.

My shep knows that Synthesis isn't a happy option. My shep has been seeing what The Illusive man has been doing to his troops, and knows that Synthesis could be very much like that. My Shep has also been running around the galaxy telling anyone who would listen that it is the things that make them different that are their greatest strength. It doesn't make sense that he would make everyone the same.

This leaves control. My Shep is opposed to this option because multiple times he has stated that no one is ready to control the power of the Reapers. He has told TIM that they are too dangerous, and has witnessed first hand how dangerous a Reaper can be. Saying "Yes, I want to put my brain in a giant death machine that has already killed millions of people" doesn't sound like something my Shep would be willing to agree to.

Given that my Shep spent the game gathering as many forces for the final battle as possible, the option of looking at the Catalyst and saying "No, I don't like your choices, and I just happen to have brought a whole lot of friends to this fight, so lets see who wins." sounds very much like my Shepard. He has been telling people that the Reapers are not unbeatable, and has been telling people this for longer than the Crucible has been an option, and in fact, longer than people were willing to accept that the Reapers were a genuine threat. Taking up any of the choices before him is accepting that victory can't be achieved without sacrificing his ideals and beliefs.

Based on what my Shepard would do, I have to chose Refusal, because my Shepard believes in his friends, and in the combined might of the galaxy.

I'm more of the opinion and Idealistic Shepard would go for synthesis,as it's the only real concrete way of stopping the cycle. Drastic cure for drastic circumstances. Eveything in the MEU points to the fact that synthetics are born from organics need for them, even the catalyst was produced from that. The Leviathan needed an intelligence, to fathom it's problems with synthetics competition with it's/their thrall races, who ended up engineering complex systems, that eventually became life,and battled with their creators.

Synthetic Catalyst took out it's organic creators, after using their thrall races and absorbing their technology. Tehcnology/catalyst, 'evolved', in the machine sense. It kept doing that every 50k years to find an answer to the riddle of why synthesis is enevitable. It could not...or hadn't yet.

Shep would choose from the perspective of his friends, less than he would choose from the perspective of the MEU, and his apparent orders to end the reaper threat. Refuse tends to undermine that consideration. All consideration of the immediate situation with the catalyst and new data about it's creators, tends to reinforce the image that technology is the problem, and organics dependence on that technology. Now the complication of technologies dependence on organics, leave room for the idea that organics ARE technology... can no more live without it than their proper breathing gas.. Organics are already synthesised.. they just don't know it..yet.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

And the people that did design it, didn't direct its energy at the Geth. The Crucibles energy is directed at Reaper technology. The Geth have Reaper upgrades now unfortunately. And thats all it is: an unfortunate circumstance

This is merely speculation. The Catalyst never says that it targets all Reaper tech, it says that it targets all synthetics. It's more plausible based on this description that the original function of the Crucible way back when was in fact to destroy all synthetics.

Your point still stands that Shepard didn't decide to target all synthetics instead of just the Reapers.

Given the Control electrodues do only target Reapers (for some reson)  maybe he should have shot those instead...

[Wayning_Star]

Greylycantrope wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

And the people that did design it, didn't direct its energy at the Geth. The Crucibles energy is directed at Reaper technology. The Geth have Reaper upgrades now unfortunately. And thats all it is: an unfortunate circumstance

This is merely speculation. The Catalyst never says that it targets all Reaper tech, it says that it targets all synthetics. It's more plausible based on this description that the original function of the Crucible way back when was in fact to destroy all synthetics.

Your point still stands that Shepard didn't decide to target all synthetics instead of just the Reapers.

Damnit why do people keep bring up points I want to bring up? I can't jump in I keep getting ninja'd

destroy targets all synthetics, life or not. If they're reapertech or not, if sentient, they're reaper tech, in the MEU, so all synthetics are targeted by the red beam of NO technology. Otherwise, it wouldn't change anything in the MEU, and probably not destroy "enough".

[CronoDragoon]

Mcfly616 wrote...
True. That's simply my perspective. Granted, this is one of those things that was left up to interpretation. And honestly I like some things to be left that way. Including the origins of the Crucible.

Honestly, the only thing missing in this game is a solution to the geth/EDI destruction. Since it seems unlikely at this point that they'll retcon it, I am fine with them coming up with a damn good reason for the Crucible being built that way. Such as the original organics who constructed it being AI-hating and wanting to erase all synthetics. This is of course assuming the Crucible is responsible for the way it disperses its energy, which is a dubious claim at best and not at all supported by in-game evidence.

Still, I just want a better reason than "they needed to balance out the endings."

[Wayning_Star]

iakus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

And the people that did design it, didn't direct its energy at the Geth. The Crucibles energy is directed at Reaper technology. The Geth have Reaper upgrades now unfortunately. And thats all it is: an unfortunate circumstance

This is merely speculation. The Catalyst never says that it targets all Reaper tech, it says that it targets all synthetics. It's more plausible based on this description that the original function of the Crucible way back when was in fact to destroy all synthetics.

Your point still stands that Shepard didn't decide to target all synthetics instead of just the Reapers.

Given the Control electrodues do only target Reapers (for some reson)  maybe he should have shot those instead...

It wouldn't matter really, they're all symbolic. Shooting them would have no effect. All it does to the catalyst is make it mad and invokes refuse. Sheps on the ground deciding, in any event.

[iorveth1271]

I think in terms of what the EC promised to deliver, it was a good addition to the endings and made me personally feel a lot better than the depressing... "thing" that was the vanilla ending. It's far from perfect and making sense, but it's gone to the point of "Meh, I can live with it" and a bit of handwaiving for me.

What I absolutely disagree with is Refusal being bs. I personally actually saw it as the most ideal ending for a Paragon Shepard who put emphasis on the ideals of freedom of choice and harmony despite variety. Instead of accepting the so-called "choices" the Catalyst literally offers you (basically meaning the Reapers allow you to win, which makes this an illusion of a victory), you actually choose to end this war on your own terms, even if this means total annihilation. And we do not know if Bioware might at some point add so many war assets so that conventional victory would be possible or not, but they gave you the option to try it conventionally. And if it doesn't work, Liara's recorded message could well be discovered early enough by the next cycle to allow for sufficient preparations in order to thwart the Reaper onslaught the next time around.

I wouldn't put too much thinking into the "SO BE IT!" part of Casper there. I personally did not see it too much as a big FU by Bioware, I just giggled at it instead, I don't care about it really. Instead of accepting the shallow illusion of choice, I made the choice on how to end this war. After all, that's what Shepard was entrusted with in the first place so it's his responsibility and his right to make this kind of decision. Being annihilated doesn't outright mean you've lost if another cycle can still make it. And I'd prefer another cycle having a much better chance at this war in a conventional way than us playing god with toys we do not even fully comprehend in their functionality.

Nope, thanks.

[Wayning_Star]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
True. That's simply my perspective. Granted, this is one of those things that was left up to interpretation. And honestly I like some things to be left that way. Including the origins of the Crucible.

Honestly, the only thing missing in this game is a solution to the geth/EDI destruction. Since it seems unlikely at this point that they'll retcon it, I am fine with them coming up with a damn good reason for the Crucible being built that way. Such as the original organics who constructed it being AI-hating and wanting to erase all synthetics. This is of course assuming the Crucible is responsible for the way it disperses its energy, which is a dubious claim at best and not at all supported by in-game evidence.

Still, I just want a better reason than "they needed to balance out the endings."

Destroy just takes away the technology that cannot be controlled by other choices. Geth and Edi are technology, apex for sure, but just that, if you pick destroy, that's all they are to the picker. Smart tin cans.

[M Hedonist]

Personally, I'm convinced the "So be it" is a direct reference to the "So be it, Jedi" the Emperor gives to Luke in Return of the Jedi after Luke refuses to kill Vader.

[Wayning_Star]

iorveth1271 wrote...

I think in terms of what the EC promised to deliver, it was a good addition to the endings and made me personally feel a lot better than the depressing... "thing" that was the vanilla ending. It's far from perfect and making sense, but it's gone to the point of "Meh, I can live with it" and a bit of handwaiving for me.

What I absolutely disagree with is Refusal being bs. I personally actually saw it as the most ideal ending for a Paragon Shepard who put emphasis on the ideals of freedom of choice and harmony despite variety. Instead of accepting the so-called "choices" the Catalyst literally offers you (basically meaning the Reapers allow you to win, which makes this an illusion of a victory), you actually choose to end this war on your own terms, even if this means total annihilation. And we do not know if Bioware might at some point add so many war assets so that conventional victory would be possible or not, but they gave you the option to try it conventionally. And if it doesn't work, Liara's recorded message could well be discovered early enough by the next cycle to allow for sufficient preparations in order to thwart the Reaper onslaught the next time around.

I wouldn't put too much thinking into the "SO BE IT!" part of Casper there. I personally did not see it too much as a big FU by Bioware, I just giggled at it instead, I don't care about it really. Instead of accepting the shallow illusion of choice, I made the choice on how to end this war. After all, that's what Shepard was entrusted with in the first place so it's his responsibility and his right to make this kind of decision. Being annihilated doesn't outright mean you've lost if another cycle can still make it. And I'd prefer another cycle having a much better chance at this war in a conventional way than us playing god with toys we do not even fully comprehend in their functionality.

Nope, thanks.

I've considered refuse as a metagamed ending choice. Disassociated with the core of ME. I don't know why they decided to include it with EC. I never considered it..ever. I'd turn off the game and never play it again before choosing refuse... but that's just me, I guess.

[Wayning_Star]

Sauruz wrote...

Personally, I'm convinced the "So be it" is a direct reference to the "So be it, Jedi" the Emperor gives to Luke in Return of the Jedi after Luke refuses to kill Vader.

could be, but it's probably just to tune in that the catalyst IS the head reaper...once unshackled from the crucibled citadel.

[Ryzaki]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And none of my Sheps live. Even the good destroy ones eventually die of thirst from being trapped in the Citadel without anyone helping them. What a way to go.

Well, if you want to headcanon that, it's your right.

Yup. Nothing in game contradicts it either.

Two days after destroy...
Random Worker1: "OH, GOD!!! Look at this place!! We're going to have to flush the whole underside of the Citadel tower with fresh spring water!!"
Random Worker2: "Yep. Good thing we're here at Earth! Already on the way... Oh, here it comes, now..."
*pan up to shep's chest*
Shep: "*gasp!!*"
*TOOOWAAAAASHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!*

This gave me a good laugh. Thank you.

[Festilence]

In response to the OP, you want Bioware and EA to take up time and money to patch something so that it removes an optional Ending and adds nothing?

[Bill Casey]

Sauruz wrote...

Personally, I'm convinced the "So be it" is a direct reference to the "So be it, Jedi" the Emperor gives to Luke in Return of the Jedi after Luke refuses to kill Vader.

Yes, but the true battle in ROTJ is a battle for the soul of Darth Vader, which begins as soon as Luke is escorted to his father. Luke fights with words and actions that finally convinced Vader to literally overthrow the Emperor...

The true power of the light side of the force comes through. And it's not flippy video game bull**** from the prequels. It's the idealism and purity contrasted with the Emperor's pure malice that convinces Vader to switch sides...

The Mass Effect universe has become far more cynical...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:59 .