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The ideal RPG isn't like a movie, it's like tabletop D&D


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#1
batlin

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Cinematics shouldn't take precedence over the player's options. Developer-controlled pacing shouldn't take precedence over the player's control of the pacing. A video game could probably never provide the freedom a tabletop game can, but that doesn't mean it's pointless to try.

If a game is supposed to be more like an action movie and less like an RPG, make a game like Uncharted where every second is a scripted event and where no player input ultimately matters aside from failure or success. Don't make an "RPG" that gives us few options and an uncompelling plot just so it will feel like a movie.


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MOD Edit: I don't want to outright remove Batlin's words, but a comment to those new to this thread that this discussion is NOT about the specifics of "what makes an RPG" and said posts will be deleted/edited to prevent the discussion from derailing along those lines.

Modifié par batlin, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:40 .


#2
wright1978

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Agree completely player characterisation should be the priority and cinematics should work around this, not the other way round.

#3
Fast Jimmy

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Agreed, completely.

If I am roleplaying a blank slate character, I need to be able to control the reactions, thoughts and emotions of my character. Even if it is a game like the Witcher, which is a set protagonist, I know enough about the character and their background to get a feeling for how he would act. With a more movie-like, cinematic game that, at the same time, gives me no background on the character NOR does it let me play my character as I'd ideally see fit, then it fails for me in almost every regard.

#4
Guest_sjpelkessjpeler_*

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Everything Fast Jimmy said and want to add that cinematics can be a good thing in a game if it explains things that could not be known to the player and are explained in that fashion. But the PC must not be present in them because that would demise my immersion in the game.

#5
bEVEsthda

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Of course an ideal RPG is nothing at all like a movie. Absolutely not. Movies or interactive movies fail on so many planes to amount to a cRPG.

Surprisingly perhaps for some, but I do not agree an ideal RPG is like a tabletop D&D either.

Here's what i think: Tabletop are maybe closer to the ideal RPG than many so called "RPG"s released recently. But a computer allows so much more, than replicating the paradigms and rules of P&P. And despite that it hasn't really been explored much (except perhaps by Bethesda), it's still what an "ideal" cRPG is waiting for.

Now and then I try to write some stuff about this. But almost no one seem to understand what I'm about. Which in my mind proves that a lot of you have gone rather rigid in your heads when it comes to RPGs.

In my mind, the important things are not the inventions of P&P games, like classes, levels, XP, dungeon crawling, combat rules, loot etc.
The important thing is what the creators of tabletop RPGs tried to have their game do! They then settled for their way of doing it because it was a possible way, with only dice and pen and paper.

First thing to realize is that their goal was to accomplish some kind of simulation. A link to realism was important. And more than just important, in fact the entire point of it all - was the emergent narrative! And just as fundamental was that the character is the players character, and is only voiced by the player!

Another thing that is important is that the combat is only played out in context of the characters properties. There should be no thing like "action"-RPG.

That the character grows is important both as a realistic consequence, but also so as to make it possible for the character to tackle harder tasks. This relationship is normally lacking in recent RPGs. Instead we have an artificial balancing mechanism, which ensures that all action is the same, throughout the game, regardless of player strength, regardless what target the character tackles at whatever level of experience. In modern cRPGs, leveling up is just a traditional formality. It no longer serves any purpose. (as in guiding the players choices).

I could go on for almost ever, but unless some catches on, what's the point?
And why, oh why, do we always fight all combat to the death of everybody? Why does everybody fight with undiminished strength until the very moment of death? These paradigms don't come from RPGs, even BG was somewhat more sophisticated. They come from archaic console romps like scrolling shooters and platformers. Apparently that's all current game designers think an RPG should be,.. between movies. Posted Image

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 12 septembre 2012 - 08:43 .


#6
batlin

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bEVEsthda wrote...

Of course an ideal RPG is nothing at all like a movie. Absolutely not. Movies or interactive movies fail on so many planes to amount to a cRPG.

Surprisingly perhaps for some, but I do not agree an ideal RPG is like a tabletop D&D either.

Here's what i think: Tabletop are maybe closer to the ideal RPG than many so called "RPG"s released recently. But a computer allows so much more, than replicating the paradigms and rules of P&P. And despite that it hasn't really been explored much (except perhaps by Bethesda), it's still what an "ideal" cRPG is waiting for.


To clarify, I never meant it's more ideal to dice mechanics to determine scores as opposed to the computer calculating the factors itself. I'm speaking only on the freedom and variety that tabletop RPGs allow. Not that the video game mechanics must be derived from them.

Modifié par batlin, 12 septembre 2012 - 08:53 .


#7
bEVEsthda

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batlin wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Of course an ideal RPG is nothing at all like a movie. Absolutely not. Movies or interactive movies fail on so many planes to amount to a cRPG.

Surprisingly perhaps for some, but I do not agree an ideal RPG is like a tabletop D&D either.

Here's what i think: Tabletop are maybe closer to the ideal RPG than many so called "RPG"s released recently. But a computer allows so much more, than replicating the paradigms and rules of P&P. And despite that it hasn't really been explored much (except perhaps by Bethesda), it's still what an "ideal" cRPG is waiting for.


To clarify, I never meant it's more ideal to dice mechanics to determine scores as opposed to the computer calculating the factors itself. I'm speaking only on the freedom and variety that tabletop RPGs allow. Not that the video game mechanics must be derived from them.


Absolutely! I've never doubted you.
But I wanted to try to take the question in this direction with my post.

#8
MichaelStuart

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Agree, that a RPG showed not be a movie.
I want to have control of my character all the time, not watch then do stuff by themselves.

Disagree, that it should play like a tabletop game.
I can not stand the gameplay of tabletop games. Rolling dice is just as bad as watching a movie.

#9
Fast Jimmy

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^

It should be clarified that when people say the PnP experience, they mean the experience as a good, experienced DM does it. In that type of situation, a good DM gives the most freedom in the story and knows how to minimize unnecessary rolls.

Mike, from every post I've seen you make about PnP, it's made me think you don't have a lot of experience with them, or the last DM you had was a sixteen year old who ha never tried their hand at it before. A truly excellent DM is equal parts rules master and storyteller.

#10
cJohnOne

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It doesn't have to be all one way or the other. I can enjoy more of a movie but prefer the ability to role play. Most of us probably like D&D but all games don't have to be like that.

#11
Emzamination

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I pray to the maker for the day when my entitelist brethren will wake up and realize this is 2012, not 1975.

#12
Blastback

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

It should be clarified that when people say the PnP experience, they mean the experience as a good, experienced DM does it. In that type of situation, a good DM gives the most freedom in the story and knows how to minimize unnecessary rolls.

Mike, from every post I've seen you make about PnP, it's made me think you don't have a lot of experience with them, or the last DM you had was a sixteen year old who ha never tried their hand at it before. A truly excellent DM is equal parts rules master and storyteller.

Yes.

#13
MichaelStuart

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

It should be clarified that when people say the PnP experience, they mean the experience as a good, experienced DM does it. In that type of situation, a good DM gives the most freedom in the story and knows how to minimize unnecessary rolls.

Mike, from every post I've seen you make about PnP, it's made me think you don't have a lot of experience with them, or the last DM you had was a sixteen year old who ha never tried their hand at it before. A truly excellent DM is equal parts rules master and storyteller.


I admit to having little first hand experience with PnP games.
Just be clear tho, I did not have a bad experience.
I just do not like when success/failure is determind by rolling dice. Thats all.

#14
bEVEsthda

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Emzamination wrote...

I pray to the maker for the day when my entitelist brethren will wake up and realize this is 2012, not 1975.


And because it's 2012, we should only play games with simplistic gameplay modeled after the very first videogames? Donkey Kong etc?

If you don't understand my point: I reject your argument, because there is often not any evolution in videogame gameplay. There's devolution. And I would say DA2 is a prime example of it. The idea that DA2 and similar represents any kind of "modern" in terms of advancing the state, is not well thought through.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 12 septembre 2012 - 09:36 .


#15
Emzamination

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bEVEsthda wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I pray to the maker for the day when my entitelist brethren will wake up and realize this is 2012, not 1975.


And because it's 2012, we should only play games with simplistic gameplay modeled after the very first videogames? Donkey Kong etc?

If you don't understand my point: I reject your argument, because there is often not any evolution in videogame gameplay. There's devolution. And I would say DA2 is a prime example of it. The idea that DA2 and similar represents any kind of "modern" in terms of advancing the state, is not well thought through.


O really? Please don't stop there, give me your supporting arguments as to why you thought Da2 degenerated.

#16
bEVEsthda

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Emzamination wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I pray to the maker for the day when my entitelist brethren will wake up and realize this is 2012, not 1975.


And because it's 2012, we should only play games with simplistic gameplay modeled after the very first videogames? Donkey Kong etc?

If you don't understand my point: I reject your argument, because there is often not any evolution in videogame gameplay. There's devolution. And I would say DA2 is a prime example of it. The idea that DA2 and similar represents any kind of "modern" in terms of advancing the state, is not well thought through.


O really? Please don't stop there, give me your supporting arguments as to why you thought Da2 degenerated.


Gameplay-wise, DA2 is just another console romp, the exact same way they have been since the stone age of videogaming. There is nothing sophisticated going on. The only thing that has changed is the presentation and definition.

#17
Emzamination

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bEVEsthda wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I pray to the maker for the day when my entitelist brethren will wake up and realize this is 2012, not 1975.


And because it's 2012, we should only play games with simplistic gameplay modeled after the very first videogames? Donkey Kong etc?

If you don't understand my point: I reject your argument, because there is often not any evolution in videogame gameplay. There's devolution. And I would say DA2 is a prime example of it. The idea that DA2 and similar represents any kind of "modern" in terms of advancing the state, is not well thought through.


O really? Please don't stop there, give me your supporting arguments as to why you thought Da2 degenerated.


Gameplay-wise, DA2 is just another console romp, the exact same way they have been since the stone age of videogaming. There is nothing sophisticated going on. The only thing that has changed is the presentation and definition.


That's not a supporting argument, it's a vague generalization formulated on personal preference.A game does not need to become increasingly more complex and tatical to reach evoloution.Again I ask for your supporting arguments, the aspects of the rpg genre that you feel Da2 is lacking.

Modifié par Emzamination, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:01 .


#18
gangly369

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Oh god, why did you start a thread like this? This is just going to end up devolving into a pointless squabble over what an 'RPG' is and how no one can agree on what constitutes a good one from a bad one, namely because everyone seems to have a different definition on what an RPG actually is.

#19
Wozearly

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[quote]Emzamination wrote...

I pray to the maker for the day when my entitelist brethren will wake up and realize this is 2012, not 1975.[/quote]

Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone an entitleist. And the underlying point is actually a reasonable one. ;)

[quote]MichaelStuart wrote...

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

I admit to having little first hand experience with PnP games.
Just be clear tho, I did not have a bad experience.
I just do not like when success/failure is determind by rolling dice. Thats all.

[/quote]

One of the unwritten rules for a DM is that a lot of little success/failures (I try to sneak, I stub my toe and now the guards are on us) are determined by dice rolls, but the crucial successes/failures are not - unless a crucial failure would be very handy to the plot.

Characters playing to their strengths and clearly within their limits shouldn't have to roll for the slim chance of potential failure all the time, unless you have a highly sadistic DM. And DMs often let people get 'lucky' with the occasional risky endeavour, despite what the dice might say. ;)

However, I agree with you in disliking excessive randomness in very linear path RPGs, where its a case of "You must defeat this encounter, or you can't progress. No, there's nothing else you can go and do instead", because in those situations the randomness is just an additional potential barrier that adds no real value to the player.

Random elements are far more valuable in open world settings, where the player has greater freedom to play to their strengths and, if need be, abandon an encounter where they're outmatched rather than have to repeatedly reload and try again...and again...and again...and again.

#20
batlin

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Emzamination wrote...

I pray to the maker for the day when my entitelist brethren will wake up and realize this is 2012, not 1975.


Are you implying that concepts like "freedom" and "choice" in video games is old news?

Modifié par batlin, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:12 .


#21
Emzamination

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Wozearly wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I pray to the maker for the day when my entitelist brethren will wake up and realize this is 2012, not 1975.


Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone an entitleist. And the underlying point is actually a reasonable one. ;)


What do we disagree on?

#22
Emzamination

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batlin wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I pray to the maker for the day when my entitelist brethren will wake up and realize this is 2012, not 1975.


Are you implying that concepts like "freedom" and "choice" in video games is old news?


Freedom and choice based on what perimeters?

#23
Allan Schumacher

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Straight up telling other people that their perspective of what an RPG should be about is wrong (and essentially, that's what you're doing here) never ends well.

In general I have no problems if people talk about what it is they like about the genre and what types of games and mechanics within the genre that they feel are good and bad.

For the record, I like a lot of RPGs with cinematics, and don't feel they take away from the game. I also do not feel that cinematics and player agency are mutually exclusive. Player agency and an increased focused on in game character skills are among things I highly value in RPGs. This doesn't mean I feel that being forced to do something at a point in the game or allowing varying degrees of player skill take away from whether or not a game is an RPG.


Let it be known that this thread is already on thin ice if people can't be civil and respect that other people have different things they like about RPGs.

#24
thats1evildude

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In my mind, the only true RPGs have Chocobos. Chocobo racing, chocobo breeding, chocobo flying … everything must relate to chocobos.

Planescape: Torment, The Witcher, Baldur's Gate, Dragon's Age … all great games let down by their lack of Chocobo-related content.

D&D has no chocobos, but I homebrewed my own rulebook for chocobo mounts and PCs. One of the players at my weekly tabletop RPG game once protested the constant focus on chocobos in my campaign. "Can't we play as something else than Chocobos?" he moaned. I pushed a button on my chair and dropped him into a fire pit. The air was filled with the stench of burned flesh and screams of pain.

Chocobos are SRS BZNS. Chocobos 4 Life. Chocobos or GTFO, Bioware.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:32 .


#25
batlin

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Emzamination wrote...

Freedom and choice based on what perimeters?


Based on the amount of variables within the plot. based on the amount of outcomes derived from the player's choices. Based on the amount of dialogue options and character interactions. In each of these ways DA2 delivered less than DA:O did. That is my reason for saying it's not as good of an RPG.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Straight up telling other people that their perspective of what an RPG should be about is wrong (and essentially, that's what you're doing here) never ends well.

In general I have no problems if people talk about what it is they like about the genre and what types of games and mechanics within the genre that they feel are good and bad.

For the record, I like a lot of RPGs with cinematics, and don't feel they take away from the game. I also do not feel that cinematics and player agency are mutually exclusive. Player agency and an increased focused on in game character skills are among things I highly value in RPGs. This doesn't mean I feel that being forced to do something at a point in the game or allowing varying degrees of player skill take away from whether or not a game is an RPG.


Let it be known that this thread is already on thin ice if people can't be civil and respect that other people have different things they like about RPGs.


Firstly, the definition of an "RPG" is there in the name. If you have less choice and less freedom, you also have less ability to roleplay. This isn't a matter of opinion, this is how the RPG genre is.

Second, I have no problems with cinematic RPGs and have not once in this thread said cinematics in of itself is bad. My only concern is when the elements that make an RPG an RPG are hindered in the name of making a game more cinematic. It's completely truee that player agency and cinematics are not mutually exclusive, but that doesn't mean one cannot encompass the other.

Imagine, if you will, that you're playing a tabletop RPG, and you decide that you must follow an informant because you believe he may have lied to you and you want to see who he reports to. Unfortunately, the DM says you can't do that. You ask him why, and he says it's because it would be so much cooler if you went along with it as if you didn't think the informant was lying.

See what I mean?

Modifié par batlin, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:28 .