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The ideal RPG isn't like a movie, it's like tabletop D&D


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#101
bEVEsthda

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Straight up telling other people that their perspective of what an RPG should be about is wrong (and essentially, that's what you're doing here) never ends well.

In general I have no problems if people talk about what it is they like about the genre and what types of games and mechanics within the genre that they feel are good and bad.

<snip>...

Let it be known that this thread is already on thin ice if people can't be civil and respect that other people have different things they like about RPGs.


So why do you think "RPG" is still a label of a "genre" then?

#102
Darth Death

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Renmiri1 wrote...

I prefer DA2 to DAO, please don't get the impression that all of us here want another DAO clone for DA3.

Don't worry, BioWare feels the exact same way too. The only people who will suffer are those loving Origins.

#103
philippe willaume

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Well, you could try to work from the DA:O base rather just scrapping it and going for Mass Effect, but with less player control.

(At least Mass Effect gave you some control over your speech)


IMO adding a dialogue wheel is adding to the DA:O base, is it not? (Behind the scenes the engine treats conversations virtually the same in both games, with DA2 having improvements in the ease of rapid scene development and other little tweaks that we saw).

As an anecdote, the most frequent "complaint" (and they all said it was a minor one) with DAO amongst my friends was why we regressed in terms of how we presented the player in conversations. There ARE people that felt the lack of VO and dialogue wheel (especially among console players) was a let down in the game.

So is adding the wheel truly a "scrapping" of the (IMO already heavily cinematic) system of DAO?

Not does not

It could even be argued that due to colloquialism it is an
improvement.

sometime in DA:0 I ended up reloading  because the way the line was taken was not
the way I meant it.

so the dialogue wheel whilst it does not give you and exact control
of what you say it give you control of what you mean.

So for me it is an improvement. it is not what I would have
said or even picked up in a DA:0 lines choice but it convey my intention wells.
I E it is the end result i wanted to achieve.

 

However that it no necessarily a counter argument to what
you are replying to.

For some people the wheel come to represent the epitomy of
all evils and from their stand point it is not wrong.

 

Technically it is just a mean to present dialogues options just
like the lines in DA.

but in DA:0 you had much more dialogue choices (or the impression
of thereof)

Really the opposite stand to one I present as mine as the beginning
is just as valid

 

the wheel took away the ability to say thing without knowing
how it was going to be taken, if you add the follow up conversion that can't interrupt
and the tone of the acting voice that may not match what the player envisioned,
It is quite easy to see where people who did not like the wheel comes from

Phil

#104
KENNY4753

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That's why I loved DA:O. It was a great tactical RPG that reminded me of D&D

#105
bEVEsthda

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Emzamination wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I pray to the maker for the day when my entitelist brethren will wake up and realize this is 2012, not 1975.


And because it's 2012, we should only play games with simplistic gameplay modeled after the very first videogames? Donkey Kong etc?

If you don't understand my point: I reject your argument, because there is often not any evolution in videogame gameplay. There's devolution. And I would say DA2 is a prime example of it. The idea that DA2 and similar represents any kind of "modern" in terms of advancing the state, is not well thought through.


O really? Please don't stop there, give me your supporting arguments as to why you thought Da2 degenerated.


Gameplay-wise, DA2 is just another console romp, the exact same way they have been since the stone age of videogaming. There is nothing sophisticated going on. The only thing that has changed is the presentation and definition.


That's not a supporting argument, it's a vague generalization formulated on personal preference.A game does not need to become increasingly more complex and tatical to reach evoloution.Again I ask for your supporting arguments, the aspects of the rpg genre that you feel Da2 is lacking.


Why do you ask that? Haven't that question been discussed thousands of times already in these forums?
DA2 do lack aspects of "RPG" genre. But that was never a point of mine. My point was that the gameplay in DA2 is utterly unevolved. And by that I wasn't even talking about the RPG aspect (which IMO doesn't exist, except for pure presentation only, voiced dialog to listen to and movies to watch).

I said I reject the assumption in your post. Which appears to be that 2012 is a natural reason for games being in a certain way? And what way would that be? What is it you perceive?
Now: - I,  see the stale combat. Always the same. To the death of every foe, which comes very suddenly as the healthbar is empty. Big Bosses to dodge and whittle down. Glowing rewards to pick up. It's not even genre specific. What's "RPG" about it? And what's the difference between 1975 and 2012 with that?

Who are the "entitelist brethren"?
Now I can imagine that you only saw and responded to the title of the thread. But why not read a few posts first? There weren't many of them.

#106
Lord_Valandil

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Renmiri1 wrote...

I prefer DA2 to DAO, please don't get the impression that all of us here want another DAO clone for DA3.


So we better have a DA2 clone, right?
I'd wish for a game that satisfied both parts of the audience, but that seems unlikely.

Modifié par Lord_Valandil, 13 septembre 2012 - 10:49 .


#107
KENNY4753

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Lord_Valandil wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

I prefer DA2 to DAO, please don't get the impression that all of us here want another DAO clone for DA3.


So we better have a DA2 clone, right?
"I prefer this to that, so screw you guys who like DA:O."
Anyway, don't you worry. It seems that Bioware is going to continue following the path already established in DA2.

A nice mix of the 2 is preferred.

#108
Face of Evil

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I liked both DAO or DA2, but I'm not going to pretend that both games didn't make mistakes. I think there's a healthy middle ground here taking the best from both games.

#109
ianvillan

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Face of Evil wrote...

I liked both DAO or DA2, but I'm not going to pretend that both games didn't make mistakes. I think there's a healthy middle ground here taking the best from both games.



But from Biowares view they already took the best of Origins and put it in DA2, and so far they seem to be confident about putting lots of DA2 features in the next game but can't find a single thing from Origins to put in.

#110
Darth Death

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Face of Evil wrote...

I liked both DAO or DA2, but I'm not going to pretend that both games didn't make mistakes. I think there's a healthy middle ground here taking the best from both games.

And how would that look like? You can't incorporate awesome button with tactical combat, that would be even worse. It's the refinement of either one or the other. 

#111
Face of Evil

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Darth Death wrote...

And how would that look like? You can't incorporate awesome button with tactical combat, that would be even worse. It's the refinement of either one or the other. 


God, the "awesome button" joke is so tired. It's the standard issue complaint for morons and trolls who have nothing better to say, so they spout off a line they've seen a thousand times before on the forums. Who even said that? Do you know without looking that up? Or are you just parroting that line without knowing the context? That is the very definition of a poser repeating jokes that his other funnier, cooler friend said first.

As I said in another thread, I don't get what was so "tactical" about DAO's combat, unless "slow" equates to "tactical." For all that I hear about people planning ahead for battles, here was my strategy 90% of the time on Hard or Nightmare difficulty:
1) See enemies
2) Wade into combat
3) Stab baddies until they fell over

The best parts of DAO were the varied environments and enemies; the firm in-game goals; the party camp system; the ability to at least improve your companion's armor beyond buying upgrades at the shop; and picking from more than one PC background. (I don't need six, but three would be nice.)

Add all those things to DA2 plus a few more romance scenes, deduct the parachuting baddies and some of the sillier combat moves (Isabela's tumbling comes to mind), and IMO you'd have the most perfect Dragon Age game possible.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 septembre 2012 - 11:51 .


#112
Darth Death

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Face of Evil wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

And how would that look like? You can't incorporate awesome button with tactical combat, that would be even worse. It's the refinement of either one or the other. 


God, the "awesome button" joke is so tired. It's the standard issue complaint for morons and trolls who have nothing better to say, so they spout off a line they've seen a thousand times before on the forums. Who even said that? Do you know without looking that up? Or are you just parroting that line without knowing the context? That is the very definition of a poser repeating jokes that his other funnier, cooler friend said first.

As I said in another thread, I don't get what was so "tactical" about DAO's combat, unless "slow" equates to "tactical." For all that I hear about people planning ahead for battles, here was my strategy 90% of the time on Hard or Nightmare difficulty:
1) See enemies
2) Wade into combat
3) Stab baddies until they fell over

The best parts of DAO were the varied environments and enemies; the firm in-game goals; the party camp system; the ability to at least improve your companion's armor beyond buying upgrades at the shop; and picking from more than one PC background. (I don't need six, but three would be nice.)

Add all those things to DA2 plus a few more romance scenes, deduct the parachuting baddies and some of the sillier combat moves (Isabela's tumbling comes to mind), and IMO you'd have the most perfect Dragon Age game possible.

I've asked a question & you rewarded me with nonsense accompanied with petty insults & false assumptions. If you don't know how to reply properly, then maybe you should take a break from the forums, instead of blessing me with a ridiculous rant. If you can't handle a simple sentence, then maybe you're not meant to be here.  

#113
PaulSX

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I think people should get over this. Everything in DAO was also scripted; There is NO actual "Free Choices" in that game either. I sorry to say that but that is how it is being designed. All bioware games since kotor are just simple "choose your adventure" games. if you rather like a simulation type game, Bethesda is your home or even Sims games are better choices.

#114
Nomen Mendax

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suntzuxi wrote...

I think people should get over this. Everything in DAO was also scripted; There is NO actual "Free Choices" in that game either. I sorry to say that but that is how it is being designed. All bioware games since kotor are just simple "choose your adventure" games. if you rather like a simulation type game, Bethesda is your home or even Sims games are better choices.

Good lord, you've enlightened me, until your post I assumed that my choices somehow made the software re-write itself! </sarcasm>

#115
PaulSX

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Nomen Mendax wrote...

suntzuxi wrote...

I think people should get over this. Everything in DAO was also scripted; There is NO actual "Free Choices" in that game either. I sorry to say that but that is how it is being designed. All bioware games since kotor are just simple "choose your adventure" games. if you rather like a simulation type game, Bethesda is your home or even Sims games are better choices.

Good lord, you've enlightened me, until your post I assumed that my choices somehow made the software re-write itself! </sarcasm>


No, I did not mean that. But OP said Dragon Age should not be like Uncharted games in which all the events are scripted. This statement is not applicable. Because every modern BioWare game since kotor was heavily scripted just like uncharted games. I think op is looking for games with simulated world but I do not think BioWare would do any game like that and they do not have experience to build such games.

#116
Yrkoon

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Ok, since it's been said twice on this very page, I'm gonna go ahead and focus on it. 

People keep saying they want some "middle ground" between DA2 and DA:O.  But I suspect that you guys really haven't thought this through, because such a notion doesn't make sense.  The vast majority of the two games' features are mutually exclusive  and  a "middle ground" can't be negotiated  (see: voiced vs. silent protagonist.  And for that matter, art styles).  Or maybe you have thought this through .  If so, then by all means,    Please describe  this so-called  "middle ground" you want.

As for me, screw the middle ground.  There's nothing in DA2 that  I'd want in the next Dragon age. 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:29 .


#117
batlin

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Emzamination wrote...

I've beaten Da2 numerous times and I've never had to wait whole acts to talk to anyone I recruited so I'm going to need more clarification on the point you're trying to make.


Unless you didn't bother with any of the romance plots, you're lying. It is not possible to follow up on a romance plot unless you wait until the plot says you can.

Ok lets view this from a 1st playthrough prespective

*snip*

End game, well we all know what happened there.


You think that because it's not clear what Anders' specific plan was that it's not possible to figure out that his intentions with the chantry was malicious? I've only played DA2 the entire way through once and I refused to help Anders because it's pretty obvious that he wasn't planning anything good, and if you didn't get that hint you'd have to be pretty dense.

What are we presented with exactly? The effects of hawkes actions were suppose to be portrayed in the canceled expansion.


A game's narrative should not need an expansion in order to be complete. That's why it's called an "expansion" on the complete game.

#118
batlin

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

So we should just stop there?  When you say "median" it seems evident that in the end it was still a compromise.  Is a system that shows you nothing superior than a fully cinematic system that actually lets you do everything that you want to do?  Should we not strive for the latter simply because it's difficult to accomplish?


No, you shouldn't strive for the latter because unless your resources are infinite it means you have to skimp elsewhere in order to compensate for the focus on cinematics. Again, cinematics are not a bad thing, but when the player's freedom must suffer that greatly in order to make a more cinematic game, it's not ideal.

I think the engine chosen very much impacts the type of game delivered, especially when it involves significant changes in the type of presentation.


Is the Lycium engine responsible for how DA2 looks overall? Because if so I'd have to disagree, DA2 looks horrible compared to DA:O. Colors are washed-out and character models look plastic.

But, again, that's beside the point. The issue at hand is how plot branching and the writing was handled, and to m knowledge neither of those are limited by the engine,

#119
Nomen Mendax

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suntzuxi wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...

suntzuxi wrote...

I think people should get over this. Everything in DAO was also scripted; There is NO actual "Free Choices" in that game either. I sorry to say that but that is how it is being designed. All bioware games since kotor are just simple "choose your adventure" games. if you rather like a simulation type game, Bethesda is your home or even Sims games are better choices.

Good lord, you've enlightened me, until your post I assumed that my choices somehow made the software re-write itself! </sarcasm>


No, I did not mean that. But OP said Dragon Age should not be like Uncharted games in which all the events are scripted. This statement is not applicable. Because every modern BioWare game since kotor was heavily scripted just like uncharted games. I think op is looking for games with simulated world but I do not think BioWare would do any game like that and they do not have experience to build such games.

Fair enough, in which case I retract my sarcasm.  But I think you are exaggerating somewhat, there is choice in the DA games, and while I think they could make more choice I know I'm not looking for something like Skyrim -- I like Bioware's characters and writing, but want them to introduce more choice.  I believe they can do this while still keeping (roughly) the same style as their other games.

#120
Emzamination

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batlin wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I've beaten Da2 numerous times and I've never had to wait whole acts to talk to anyone I recruited so I'm going to need more clarification on the point you're trying to make.


Unless you didn't bother with any of the romance plots, you're lying. It is not possible to follow up on a romance plot unless you wait until the plot says you can.


Nope. In DA:O you can talk to companions immediately after
relevant events about them. In DA2, oftentimes you have to wait years in-game before you can bring something up.



O really? please point out in your post above where you specified romance plots because I'm not seeing it.And even when talking about companion romances your still wrong, there is romantic dialogue for every romancable companion in every act, even 1.Give me a romance companion from any act and I'll give you a romance scene.There's alot you could've missed only playing through one time, expert.



You think that because it's not clear what Anders' specific plan was that it's not possible to figure out that his intentions with the chantry was malicious? I've only played DA2 the entire way through once and I refused to help Anders because it's pretty obvious that he wasn't planning anything good, and if you didn't get that hint you'd have to be pretty dense.


Such as how you can do nothing to prevent a certain person from
committing a certain crime
even though it's plainly obvious he's an
unhinged murderer.


Stop wandering and stay focused batlin, our discussion is over the bombing specifically, not any malicious intent, as highlighted and under lined in your quoted post above.

  A game's narrative should not need an expansion in order to be complete. That's why it's called an "expansion" on the complete game.


The narrative wasn't complete tho, the game ended on a cliff hanger with hawke's disappearance and an effort to find him.It has been stated many times by the Developers that hawke's story will be brought to an end in Da3, just not in a playable fashion.So again I stand by my statement that we don't know what the repercussions of his/her final actions will be.
 
Do try to make as much an attempt to keep up with our dialogue as you do to deliver that belligerent tone.

Modifié par Emzamination, 14 septembre 2012 - 05:10 .


#121
Allan Schumacher

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No, you shouldn't strive for the latter because unless your resources are infinite it means you have to skimp elsewhere in order to compensate for the focus on cinematics. Again, cinematics are not a bad thing, but when the player's freedom must suffer that greatly in order to make a more cinematic game, it's not ideal.


You don't require infinite resources to improve workflows and to create a cinematic experience that is cheaper than it is now, and more versatile. What you need is iteration. We are constantly adding support to allow the CinDes team to create better cinematics at a more efficient rate that allows them to do more things.

You may not realize it, but a line of thinking like this prevents innovation. It'd prevent the Infinity Engine from being developed. Heck, it'd literally prevent CRPGs from even being created, because a CRPG inherently restricts player freedom. You can only do in a game what is deterministically available in the source code.

There's a reason why the "true RPGers" appended a 'C' before RPG computer games back in the day. They weren't "real" RPG experiences, but we'll make sure to qualify that by saying they are "CRPGs" just so that no one gets entirely confused and mistakes them for actual RPGs.


Is the Lycium engine responsible for how DA2 looks overall? Because if so I'd have to disagree, DA2 looks horrible compared to DA:O. Colors are washed-out and character models look plastic.

But, again, that's beside the point. The issue at hand is how plot branching and the writing was handled, and to m knowledge neither of those are limited by the engine,


What you are capable of allowing the player to do in a game is intrinsically enabled by the engine (it may be important to note that an engine is much more than the graphics you see on the screen). You don't even see attack animations in older games, but I would be suspect if people didn't appreciate the full prerendered backgrounds and sprite animations that existed in Baldur's Gate and the Infinity Engine, especially if the alternative was a text based adventure.

It probably also serves to note that, it is now more expensive to create 2D sprite animations, and that cost shoots up manipulatively the more variation you allow for the player character. Why? Because 3D animation tools are more versatile and iteration has allowed the development processes to become much faster and significantly easier than they were in the past. This development came as a result of iteration on the workflows. 3D art wasn't always cheaper than 2D stuff.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 septembre 2012 - 05:18 .


#122
Allan Schumacher

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O really? please point out in your post above where you specified romance plots because I'm not seeing it.And even when talking about companion romances your still wrong, there is romantic dialogue for every romancable companion in every act, even 1.Give me a romance companion from any act and I'll give you a romance scene.There's alot you could've missed only playing through one time, expert.


Batlin isn't saying that you can go a whole act without having a romance subplot. If the player were to experience the romance subplot rather early in an Act though, nothing more in the romance subplot will really be reflected throughout the rest of the Act, and indeed until the the next passage of time.


The difference with DAO is that the romance plots were more self contained and not dependent on any particular state of any other plot. If you were to edit Morrigan's reputation with the player to a really high value, a player could effectively go through the entire romance before doing anything else in the game.

In DA2, the events were gated by the progress through the story. Though whether or not this is an actual issue I think is more personal preference. KOTOR was very similar in that progressing through the personal stories of your party members was gated by, if I'm not mistaken, the level of the player.



EDIT:  Of note:

Do try to make as much an attempt to keep up with our dialogue as you do to deliver that belligerent tone.


This is an ironic statement, as I'd consider it somewhat belligerent as well.  It's not necessary for something like this.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 14 septembre 2012 - 05:16 .


#123
jillabender

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Allan Schumacher wrote…

The difference with DAO is that the romance plots were more self contained and not dependent on any particular state of any other plot. If you were to edit Morrigan's reputation with the player to a really high value, a player could effectively go through the entire romance before doing anything else in the game.

In DA2, the events were gated by the progress through the story. Though whether or not this is an actual issue I think is more personal preference.


Very well put. Personally, I prefer the DA:O approach, because being able to decide for myself  when a relationship with a companion character (whether romantic or platonic) progresses to the next level gives me more freedom to define for myself the significance of the relationship to my character and to the overall story arc.

Modifié par jillabender, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:00 .


#124
Emzamination

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Batlin isn't saying that you can go a whole act without having a romance subplot. If the player were to experience the romance subplot rather early in an Act though, nothing more in the romance subplot will really be reflected throughout the rest of the Act, and indeed until the the next passage of time.


The difference with DAO is that the romance plots were more self contained and not dependent on any particular state of any other plot. If you were to edit Morrigan's reputation with the player to a really high value, a player could effectively go through the entire romance before doing anything else in the game.

In DA2, the events were gated by the progress through the story. Though whether or not this is an actual issue I think is more personal preference. KOTOR was very similar in that progressing through the personal stories of your party members was gated by, if I'm not mistaken, the level of the player.



Batlin didn't say anything about romance at all, which is the point I was
trying to make.You do not spontaneously institute a new subject mid
discussion without warning and call me a liar for failing to acknolewdge the unknown variable, it shows a serious lack of forum
etiquette and crassness.

As far as your post goes: You're not really showing me a difference in the two systems.In Dragon age origins (Without cheating) you have to wait until the relationship bar hits a certain point to activate new conversation topics and once those are exhausted, the romance dialogue enters a repeating loop.

In Dragon age 2 you must wait until the Friendship/rivalry bar hits a certain point to activate new conversation and once those topics are exhausted the dialogue enters the same loop, with the only difference being it's not as confrontational.

As far as waiting whole acts for new material goes, that's nothing new, I'll remind you that romances with alistair, morrigan and zevran required certain main story missions to be completed before the romance could be completed, with Alistair and zevran taking the entire game.



Do try to make as much an attempt to keep up with our dialogue as you do to deliver that belligerent tone.


This is an ironic statement, as I'd consider it somewhat belligerent as well.  It's not necessary for something like this.


How so? I'm only being honest. He attempted to change the parameters our discussion to fit his stance and called me dense and a liar while he was at it.

Modifié par Emzamination, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:15 .


#125
Chiramu

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If you want to go back to tabletop games than the ideal RPG for you has all actions in text on the screen.

Games have evolved since then OP. No one who plays video games wants to sit reading about what's happening, if you want to read about what's happening YOU'D READ A DAMN BOOK!

Get with the times OP.