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#1
MyChemicalBromance

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Full disclosure: I assume something along these lines has been posted here before, but I’ve been absent for awhile. I plan to go into relatively extensive detail, so hopefully you’ll still gain something even if this has already come up.
Relevant Codex/Fiction Entries:
Desperate Measures
Retribution:The Experiment
Cosmic Sorcery
One of the most perplexing and controversial aspects of the Mass Effect 3 ending is the Crucible firing, specifically the manner in which it functions. The fact that something which appears (in the asset descriptions and design) to be an energy weapon (or at least designed to generate large amounts of energy) can somehow differentiate it’s targets after firing is somewhat confusing and unique in the Mass Effect universe (let alone the fact that it’s functions range from vaporization to augmentation, and these seemingly disparate functions depend on the state of the device).
 Through the extended conversations with the Catalyst AI we learn that the Crucible itself is little more than a power source. For theories on how the Crucible generates this energy and what it has to do with dark energy and the reconstruction of the Mass Relays, check this thread. What this reveals to us is that the functions we observe (destroy low/high ems, control, synthesis) are largely or entirely functions of the Citadel, not the Crucible. This means two things:
 
1) The Vendetta AI was likely incorrect when he postulated that the Citadel was incorporated into the design at a later point (why design a power source with no function?), or that the original designers of the Crucible had no intent to enact destroy, control, or synthesis.
This area is unclear, as both the Protheans and our cycle were able to gleam enough information from the blueprints to surmise that controlling the Reapers via the Crucible was possible (TIM in our cycle, and the indoctrinated Protheans in the last). However, both groups operated in cycles that took place after the Citadel was incorporated into the design. The Catalyst has the most definitive/revealing word in this area when it states that the Crucible is little more than a power source.
Putting all the information together, I would guess that the original Crucible was an impressive but crude energy weapon (it’s design being the only notable thing about it, again, check this thread). When the designers looked for a way to use the weapon on a galactic scale, they turned to the Citadel, and only then did the designers begin to understand that control and destroy were possible.
 
2) Destroy, Control, and Synthesis are largely if not entirely the product of Reaper technology. This is consistent with the above theory.
Despite this new information, we still have very little information about how Destroy, Control, and Synthesis actually worked. Why are these functions so disparate? Why is the specific function so dependent on the state of the Crucible if the Crucible is simply a power source? I believe the answer to these questions and many others lies in the extended depiction of Synthesis.
 
The Little Big Picture
In Mass Effect: Retribution, it was specifically stated by The Illusive Man that the husk conversion was facilitated by “Nanites” which communicated with the Reapers via quantum entanglement. While no exact size was given, Nanites, nanomachines, or nanobots are robots whose components can be easily measured at the Nano-scale (10^-9 meters). We currently have entire machines in the 0.1 micrometer to 1.0 micrometer range (100 nanometers to 1000 nanometers), with the smallest component (a switch) measuring 1.5 nanometers. Reaper technology could be (and is demonstrably) much more advanced.
(micrometers will be referred to as µm from now on, and nanometers will be referred to as nm)
Why is this relevant? “A new, DNA.”
 Posted Image
As you can see, the objects that approach the DNA are incredibly small. Individually, the inner spheres look small enough to be measured on the femto-scale (10^-15 meters). This is the scale that the nuclei of atoms are measured on. When we consider that these objects then augment the DNA cooperatively, it becomes apparent that the Reapers have developed a technology that is unbelievably advanced. I find it hard to believe that manufacturing such technology could be possible without the mass effect, and as such attribute its existence to the Reaper’s utter mastery of mass effect technology. In some ways, I think Synthesis is more impressive than the Mass Relays. The answer to our questions does depend on the Mass Relays however.

lmxar wrote...

Especially when the OP called the atoms in the model "inner spheres."

I was referring to the inner spheres of the "components" in the synthesis picture. It's what the line is pointing to on the picture.

Distribution

In Synthesis, it is apparent that the firing of the Crucible (along with the amplification of the Mass Relays) spreads these machines throughout the galaxy. They spread significantly faster than the speed of light, even when they are simply moving from a relay explosion (instead of relay to relay), for this reason, it is safe to assume that they are operating within a mass effect field. They differentiate between organic/synthetic life and inert matter, only augmenting the former. This differentiation is similar to how destroy differentiates between organic and synthetic (and inert matter), and how control differentiates between Reapers and synthetic/organic/inert matter. This is the basis of my theory.
 
I suggest that the energy pulse the Crucible fires is comprised of self-replicating “femtites,” no matter what decision is made. These machines can communicate instantly with the Citadel and/or the Catalyst, allowing them to identify targets and act with discretion. The femtites are essentially riding a biotic charge throughout the galaxy, electing to leave the mass effect field by the same means that ships leave mass effect fields.*
*Short Version: It would seem to me that Mass Effect fields allow what are essentially  Alcubierre drives to be built, with the nature of mass effect field generation (a current through eezo, which can be shut off) being the reason ships in mass effect are able to “leave” the warp-bubble. At least this appears to be how the Tantalus drive functions. Mass-Energy Conservation appears to be violated, as emphasized below.
 
 
This theory is consistent with what we see in the endings.
Synthesis
Posted Image
-explained above-
Control High EMS
Posted Image
Femtites only target the Reapers and possibly husks (not really necessary if you control the Reapers).

Control Low EMS
Posted Image
Femtites only target the Reapers and husks, but some collision damage (explained below) and collateral targeting of indoctrinated individuals may take place.
Destroy High EMS
Posted Image
Femtites identify synthetic targets and destroy them through collision damage (explained below) or other means.
Destroy Low EMS
Posted Image
Femtites attempt to target synthetics but power is so limited that collision damage (explained below) wrecks havoc across the galaxy.
 
Collision Damage
With powerful enough mass-lowering fields, affected objects can move through other objects without collision (Space curves "around" the object). This is why biotic charges can phase through solid objects, and why ships in FTL travel don’t have to worry about minor collisions. As was said before, the femtites would be under the affect of this field until they found a target (which they would find via the same scanners that the reapers implemented in Mass Effect drives to prevent collisions). If there was not enough energy to maintain this field (the result of a damaged or incomplete crucible perhaps), the femtites would drop into normal space while traveling faster than the speed of light. As per the ME1 Codex, this would potentially translate into Cherenkov radiation. Given the fact that the mass effect completely divorces the relationship between apparent size and mass, it’s impossible to know how massive the femtites really are, though they can’t be very massive if they don’t inhibit those they augment. Assuming it has the same mass as a helium atom, here are some calculations.
[The mass of a helium atom is 6.645 x 10^-27kg (0.000000000000000000000000006645kg)]
 Posted Image
These numbers are broad estimates. As emphasized by the 50k labels, the isometric image of the galaxy makes absolute position difficult to determine.
 
So femtites at the edge of the blast would have traversed 2,500 light years in about 3.5 seconds. That means they are moving at 6,757,664,623,272,000,000,000m/s (6.76x10^21m/s), which is obviously impossible unless they are under the effect of a mass-lowering field (That’s more than 2,254,114,285,714,285% the speed of light).
 
The next step is a little difficult to determine. Conventional wisdom would hold that a particle moving faster than the speed of light would have infinite mass and energy, but the mass effect negates this. For this reason, I’ll simply use classical mechanics to determine the kinetic energy, since the mass effect essentially raises the speed of light (though not really). This of course assumes that the femtites aren’t moving at the new/equivalent relativistic speeds, but no mention of such a phenomenon is ever given in the codex (an object approaching the relativistic speeds within a mass effect field).
 
KE=0.5mv^2
KE=(0.0000000000000000000000000033225kg)(4.5666031160621901683985984x10^43m/s^2)
KE=151,702,555,515,585,957.394201438848kJ
KE= 152 EJ  (152x10^18 Joules)
For reference, Tsar Bomba “only” released 240 PJ (240x10^15 Joules)

 

geceka wrote...

Great post, OP. Well, maybe apart from the calculation, which is more ordinal than cardinal, as the formula you've used does not take relativistic effects into account, and even more so, we don't even know (as you say) anything about physics involving mass-effect altered frames of reference.


I debated over whether to take relativity into account. The thing is, I don't think the games account for it within Mass Effect fields. Even if I did, I'd wind up with complex energy, which would be just as meaningless as the number I got. Since objects can leave mass effect fields "while" traveling at FTL (the cherenkov radiation entry) without destroying the universe, I figured either equally outlandish concept would suffice.
 
This estimate assumes (among many other things…) that the femtite fell completely out of the mass effect field. A femtite that only experienced a weakening of the field instead of complete failure would impart less apocalyptic levels of energy (which would be why the entire galaxy didn’t detonate). Still, it clears some things up.
 Posted Image
 
Conclusions
For those who aren’t aware, the Mass Defect isn’t just an all too easy play on this series’ title, but is actually a natural phenomenon in which mass is converted to energy when atoms bond. It’s described by Einstein’s famous E=mc^2. One thing that was never really clarified throughout the series is the effect mass effect fields have on energy. It is stated that they lower mass, but it is unclear what happens to the energy of the system. As we can see from the calculations above, a lot of energy is hiding somewhere.
To be honest, this actually makes me appreciate the Reapers more. Once Mass Effect fields get thrown into the picture, the galaxy becomes a much more dangerous place. Without the Reaper’s safety features, what happened on Taetrus would be commonplace, and even larger catastrophe’s would be just as easy to inflict. Galactic civilization would be impossible, and this is backed up by the Leviathan’s statements about things in the past. We’re so quick to eschew the Catalyst’s concepts of “order”, but this pursuit of order was the only reason we were able to enjoy the galaxy for the time that we had (have, depending on the ending and your interpretation). I won’t bother going philosophical in this thread, but I will say that this makes you think differently about the relationship between the Reapers and organics.

Modifié par MyChemicalBromance, 21 septembre 2012 - 01:59 .

  • teh DRUMPf!! et CosmicGnosis aiment ceci

#2
mumba

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I seriously have to know. How much time did you waste on this? Or did you copy and paste?

Modifié par Mumba1511, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:06 .


#3
Baa Baa

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Will read in an hour or two....
holy **** this long, nice work

#4
Bill Casey

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Posted Image

Dr. Jelize, the asari scientist found on the research station in the Silean Nebula, was working on a paper that argued nanocircuitry could solve complex behavioral problems in commercial VIs. The doctor's theoretical work seems to be supported by data in the Crucible's blueprints. She now heads the department building the weapon's circuit boards.

Slightly more positive implications for Control...
As for Synthesis... implications unpleasant...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:14 .


#5
jstme

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Thats fine technobabble.
Tell me though, how those "augmenting femtites" can not kill billions of different organisms they are now "augmenting" by attempting to integrate into an unknown and immensly complex and (more important) - vastly different among different species form different planets with different microbiology - cellular mechanics?

Trying to augment laptop by pouring coffee all over it sounds smarter.

#6
Epique Phael767

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Mumba1511 wrote...

I seriously have to know. How much time did you waste on this? Or did you copy and paste?



#7
MyChemicalBromance

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Mumba1511 wrote...

I seriously have to know. How much time did you waste on this?

Probably significantly less time than you've "wasted" in the Liara thread :P

About two hours.

#8
David7204

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God Dammit...

#9
MyChemicalBromance

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jstme wrote...

Thats fine technobabble.
Tell me though, how those "augmenting femtites" can not kill billions of different organisms they are now "augmenting" by attempting to integrate into an unknown and immensly complex and (more important) - vastly different among different species form different planets with different microbiology - cellular mechanics?

Trying to augment laptop by pouring coffee all over it sounds smarter.


We'd have to know what it is they're doing to answer that. We're only given a philosophical justification for their presence, not their physical function.

And the word "kill" becomes a philosophical issue in this case as well. Did the nanites in the husks "kill" their hosts? The bodies are still largely intact, and they don't appear to require synthetic parts to move. Truth be told if the Reapers can make a husk with nanites, synthesis isn't that far of a jump.

#10
Dessalines

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Basically, your theory is base on how nanites were used to make living or dead organisms into servants of the renegade Daleks in Season 7 of Dr. Who. :)

#11
MyChemicalBromance

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Dessalines wrote...

Basically, your theory is base on how nanites were used to make living or dead organisms into servants of the renegade Daleks in Season 7 of Dr. Who. :)


Well, that's actually the explanation given for husks. (I've never seen Dr. Who, so I'm not sure if you're joking or not)

#12
MyChemicalBromance

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David7204 wrote...

God Dammit...

?

#13
inversevideo

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MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

Basically, your theory is base on how nanites were used to make living or dead organisms into servants of the renegade Daleks in Season 7 of Dr. Who. :)


Well, that's actually the explanation given for husks. (I've never seen Dr. Who, so I'm not sure if you're joking or not)



Why Synthesis breaks the plot

#14
TheCrazyHobo

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Well sir, while I appreciate the work you have done into this, I do have some questions:

In the EC, we find that the Crucible is nothing more than a gigantic Eezo-powered battery. My question regarding this is it now also gigantic nanite factory as well? Instead of mass to energy, are you not proposing energy to mass conversion?

#15
Dendio1

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Great post OP
  • DeathScepter aime ceci

#16
Guest_Sion1138_*

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The thing is though, that you shouldn't have to go through this kind of effort to make sense of the story. Especially since there is no way in hell the person who conceived it thought about it in this way.

Also, the kind of thing that would master this technology would practically be omnipotent. The Reapers do not give that impression. With the ability to manipulate individual atoms on such an enormous scale, you could craft reality.

It makes sense but it doesn't make any sense.

#17
Mcfly616

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Cool

#18
MyChemicalBromance

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inversevideo wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

Basically, your theory is base on how nanites were used to make living or dead organisms into servants of the renegade Daleks in Season 7 of Dr. Who. :)


Well, that's actually the explanation given for husks. (I've never seen Dr. Who, so I'm not sure if you're joking or not)



Why Synthesis breaks the plot

Problems with your argument.

Assumes Synthesis was always the stated goal of the Catalyst.
Ignores the Reaper's stated goal of preserving organic life.
Ignores the fact that "husks" are indicative of IV-minus civilization.
Ignores the fact that Mass Relays are indicative of VI-minus civilization (or possibly omega).

By your argument, the plot is also broken by Mass Relays.

#19
MyChemicalBromance

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TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Well sir, while I appreciate the work you have done into this, I do have some questions:

In the EC, we find that the Crucible is nothing more than a gigantic Eezo-powered battery. My question regarding this is it now also gigantic nanite factory as well? Instead of mass to energy, are you not proposing energy to mass conversion?

Sorry if I wasn't clear on this.

The Catalyst states that the Crucible is a power source, so no, I am not proposing that the crucible builds the femtites. Instead, I'm proposing that the Citadel builds/posesses them, and the Crucible supplies the energy needed to distribute them. As far as how the Crucible generates this massive amount of energy, I believe it's similar to how I think the Mass Relays work (assembling eezo from "background" dark enery). There's a link to that tread by the bolded portion.

edit: My mistake, that's a different thread. Here's the one I was talking about.

Modifié par MyChemicalBromance, 13 septembre 2012 - 10:45 .


#20
inversevideo

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MyChemicalBromance wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

Basically, your theory is base on how nanites were used to make living or dead organisms into servants of the renegade Daleks in Season 7 of Dr. Who. :)


Well, that's actually the explanation given for husks. (I've never seen Dr. Who, so I'm not sure if you're joking or not)



Why Synthesis breaks the plot

Problems with your argument.

Assumes Synthesis was always the stated goal of the Catalyst.
Ignores the Reaper's stated goal of preserving organic life.
Ignores the fact that "husks" are indicative of IV-minus civilization.
Ignores the fact that Mass Relays are indicative of VI-minus civilization (or possibly omega).

By your argument, the plot is also broken by Mass Relays.


No.  the only argument I make in that thread is that it would take a type IV or TypeIV-minus civilization to possess the level of technology required to enact synthesis.  

We know that Starkid is not a product, of such a Civilization, because his creators, Leviathan, are hiding at the bottom of a very deep chasm, on some backwater world.

If Starkid evolved to the point where he mastered the level of technology, afforded to a TypeIV or TypeIV-minus civilization, he would have the power of creation. There would be no need for Reapers or harvesting.
Starkid would enact synthesis and never even have to reveal himself. 

If the Crucible made it possible, for Starkid to enact Synthesis, then the Crucible would need to be the product of a TypeIV or TypeIV-minus civilization, and Starkid would have to be at that level as well, to understand the technology.  Which seems to be inconsistent, as if Starkid were at that level, then it would not need the crucible.

If the Crucible were the thing that made synthesis possible then it would have had to have been the product of a typeIV or TypeIV-minus civilization, and it is baffling why such a civilization would give the plans for such a device to amoeba, at least that is what we would be to them.

In any event, if Starkid has the power of creation, then why enact cycles of reaping?

Modifié par inversevideo, 13 septembre 2012 - 10:47 .


#21
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MyChemicalBromance wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

Basically, your theory is base on how nanites were used to make living or dead organisms into servants of the renegade Daleks in Season 7 of Dr. Who. :)


Well, that's actually the explanation given for husks. (I've never seen Dr. Who, so I'm not sure if you're joking or not)



Why Synthesis breaks the plot

Problems with your argument.

Assumes Synthesis was always the stated goal of the Catalyst.
Ignores the Reaper's stated goal of preserving organic life.
Ignores the fact that "husks" are indicative of IV-minus civilization.
Ignores the fact that Mass Relays are indicative of VI-minus civilization (or possibly omega).

By your argument, the plot is also broken by Mass Relays.


Again, you shouldn't need to do calculations to make sense of a damn story. 

But for the sake of argument...

If they can manipulate individual nuclei, for pete's sake, why do they need to harvest organics, turn them into goo? Why do they exist in the form of massive squid that walk around and shoot things with lasers? It's completely senseless.

A civilization on this level would have no god damn problems with robots, or anything for that matter and certainly wouldn't behave in the manner they do. Such a civilization is something so far beyond us that it's absolutely ridiculous for them to even interact with us in any way.

And no, synthesis and the Mass Relays are not the same in that one is introduced in the first scene of the first game and the other in the last few minutes of the entire trilogy.

Modifié par Sion1138, 13 septembre 2012 - 10:51 .


#22
MyChemicalBromance

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inversevideo wrote...

In any event, if Starkid has the power of creation, then why enact cycles of reaping?


If a being had ultimate power why would they do anything? A being with all knowledge or power over everything would be above concepts like reason or logic.

Just because you can control a substantial portion of the universe doesn't mean you are all powerful either. We are Gods to ants, but that doesn't make us all powerful. Your scales don't define godhood; you just infer it.

The Catalyst clearly follows a form of logic and reason, and thus isn't the god you're making him out to be.

Modifié par MyChemicalBromance, 13 septembre 2012 - 10:55 .


#23
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MyChemicalBromance wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

In any event, if Starkid has the power of creation, then why enact cycles of reaping?


If a being had ultimate power why would they do anything? A being with all knowledge or power over everything would be above concepts like reason or logic.

Just because you can control a substantial portion of the universe doesn't mean you are all powerful either. We are Gods to ants, but that doesn't make us all powerful. Your scales don't define godhood; you just infer it.

The Catalyst clearly follows a form of logic and reason, and thus isn't the god you're making him out to be.


Practically all powerful. You see, as you have argued yourself, they can manipulate atoms... Atoms. Contemplate for a moment, the possibilites resulting from a mastery of matter at this level.

#24
Eterna

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I am so amazed right now.

#25
inversevideo

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MyChemicalBromance wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

In any event, if Starkid has the power of creation, then why enact cycles of reaping?


If a being had ultimate power why would they do anything? A being with all knowledge or power over everything would be above concepts like reason or logic.

Just because you can control a substantial portion of the universe doesn't mean you are all powerful either. We are Gods to ants, but that doesn't make us all powerful. Your scales don't define godhood; you just infer it.

The Catalyst clearly follows a form of logic and reason, and thus isn't the god you're making him out to be.


What am I making it out to be?  

It has the power of creation, if it has the power to enact synthesis. To us that is pretty near omnipotent.
That it choses to enact the cycles given the power of creation and an arse-load of processing power is baffling.  

Not a conundrum I am interested in solving either. I have no need to make excuses for the thing.

Don't really care if folks choose synthesis either. How someone role-plays their Shep is up to them.
I have been curious how folks reach the decision to choose Synthesis, but for me it is truly curiosity.

Nope, for me, the issue I have is that synthesis just knocks me completely out of the game; as it requires a really large suspension of disbelief.  It also invalidates the whole purpose of the Reapers (hehe 'Don't Fear the Reaper' is streaming on Pandora). If you have the power of creation, why Reap?

Modifié par inversevideo, 13 septembre 2012 - 11:16 .