116 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Norrax wrote...

as a biologist i know, synthesis on the DNA level is..........................BULLS**T!!

well yeah, but so are the relays and the mass effect. That's why it's science fiction

But they used science (Hey, if we make something have no mass, it can go FTL!) to do that stuff. Synthesis goes full on fiction.

FTL used a magic space stone to reduce the size of the ship.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
FTL used a magic space stone to reduce the size of the ship.

Oh really?

Anyway, that "magic space stone" was well explained. Eezo can generate a field that effects the mass of objects when exposed to current. This field can then be used to allow the ship to travel at FTL because the energy needed to propel the ship at those speeds becomes infinitely less due to Einstein's equations.

Synthesis is "This thing will do the impossible because we said so."

Difference.

[JShepppp]

Great post. I just have a few things to add:

(1) Regarding the speed of the Crucible beam/nanites/whatever, they travel through the mass relays, so a significant (majority) part of their travel is facilitated through other means. We also don't have the time scale of the explosions, as mass relays apparently offer near-instantaneous travel. Also, comm buoys apparently allow for small direct mass-relay type lines to give instantaneous communication (I think) in canon, so it could be that there are non-relay ways (like you posted in your Omega relay thread) and non-mass-effect-drive ways to achieve those levels of instantaneous travel. Perhaps for something so small as a nanite, they literally can ride waves of the "invisible" mass relay paths as opposed to actually traveling on their own.

(2) The Crucible firing near Earth and near the Charon relay shows that it can be observed, and this means it goes forward at a subluminal velocity. We see this directly on Earth. Thus either what we see on Earth is unviable or what we see on the galaxy map is not true (or is stretched out of proportions).

(3) A possible way to reconcile the above two would be to posit that the Citadel is a very specific relay that can only directly send stuff into dark space, but it cannot "ride the mass relay" wave within the galaxy network - perhaps it was directly isolated for the Reapers' protection. The Citadel intrinsically knows all the relays though (even though normal organics don't), so it could send the beam of nanites to the nearest relay, and then the galaxy-network-mass-relay (Charon Relay) can link it up to ride the "mass relay paths".

Long story short - perhaps the Citadel sends the beam at subluminal velocities because it cannot piggyback on the actual relay network because the Citadel/Dark Space relay is isolated to protect the Reapers (hence Arrival as well). Thus it sends it to the nearest mass relay. The relays operate on "invisible instantaneous paths" and this, not mass effect drives, are what send the Crucible's beam around the galaxy. The entire system gets overloaded - physically with the near-infinite stream of nanites and Type III energy they must send (as opposed to Type II, which is what the relays are made for) and system-wise in the sense that such a massive level of programming and calculation/coordination overloads the network.

Lower EMS taxes the system more because the Crucible's particles are not as "refined" (more variant) and thus we see more relay destruction and of course more overall destruction and collateral damage.

Good read.

[IamDanThaMan]

Great post op. I've ben trying to convince people of this for months. Unfortunately, I realized that it was a futile effort before I put any amount of time into it. The prblem is that so many paleople are so entrenched in their beleif that the ending came out of nowhere and is full of plotholes because they didnt make the connctions to the info in the books that it doesnt matter how much evidence you present them.

[Necrotron]

You say tomato, I say...bourbon and coke.

Modifié par Bathaius, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:28 .

[o Ventus]

dreman9999 wrote...

FTL used a magic space stone to reduce the size of the ship.

A space rock that has properties taken from numerous real life pieces of theoretical physics.

Whereas Synthesis, on the other hand, would be out of place in Harry Potter.

[BerzerkGene]

While i applaud your use of science, knowledge of technology and general intelligence to come up with this, it doesn't really fit with the crucible being a power source and the inexplicable existence of the device(s) that do this...Or starkid.

Now if the Crucible had some other function such as producing the nanites/femites, then the people working on it may have had an indication of what it did. Its stated several times that they have no goddamn clue what they're building actually does.
The device to control the reapers makes some sense being there, essentially being an override command. The tube that destroys all synthetics...does not.
And synthesis is basically invented by Starkid on the fly because you have the crucible and are 'ready' or whatever(doesn't make any sense). If a organic/synthetic hybrid was what was necessary, i doubt that Shepard was the first one.
Control was likely a safety measure of some sort which Leviathan's ancestors were apparently too stupid to use, or they made it way too small or something. The tube should be some kind of power mechanism, which should, in theory, shut down the reapers, not all synthetic life. No explanation is given as to why its all synthetics. Oh, except for "The crucible doesn't discriminate", which is crap because its just a battery.
Synthesis, if it was the ultimate solution, should have been starkid's FIRST plan rather then kill everything sufficiently advanced every 50k Years.

[Ieldra]

Very interesting, OP. Others have already said a lot, so I'll just add two things:

(1) Your conclusion that the functionality for the three main choices rests in the Citadel is premature. Consider:
"The Crucible changed me, created new...possibilities".
That appears to imply that it does something more than convert energy (using this term since energy, strictly spoken, cannot be created). Also, your explanations in the linked post do not necessarily restrict the Crucible to energy conversion.

(2) Your hypothesis of machines on subatomic scales ("femtotech") is certainly within the boundary of scientific explanations used in the ME universe, but if you want a "hard science" explanation, you need to take into account that at very small scales, particles aren't distinct any more. At that level, matter can rather be described as a "soup of point sources and quantum fields". I'm not sure if machines on that scale are physically feasible at all. On the other hand, our knowledge of these things is hardly complete, and in any case quantum theory is a mathematical model. Even physicists admit that they don't truly understand the reality behind it.

Anyway, I like your explanation, especially since it explains a part of Synthesis. Now if you can come up with an explanation how Shepard comes into it we could bury the talk of space magic once and for all. Unfortunately, I don't think we can.

[xbb1024]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...
I suggest that the energy pulse the
Crucible fires is comprised of self-replicating “femtites,” no matter
what decision is made. These machines can communicate instantly with the
Citadel and/or the Catalyst, allowing them to identify targets and act
with discretion. The femtites are essentially riding a biotic charge
throughout the galaxy, electing to leave the mass effect field by the same means that ships leave mass effect fields.*

I haven't thought through the ending choices in anywhere as much detail as you have, and I apologise if what I'm going to write has already been discredited.

For whatever reason, I've always assumed that in the ME universe its possible to convert energy to matter and vice versa. With this enormous assumption, rather then nanites being created at the Catalyst in matter form, they get radiated out as energy and converted to matter at its target, according to 'blueprints' carried by the energy. Each ME relay could amplify the intelligent magic energy to reach further, so that the Crucible dosen't need to originate all the energy.

Where my theory breaks down is how this magic energy would differentiate either a Reaper or organic life, so that it can convert into the nanites.

Some further questions to ponder: if the catalyst has this ability, why bother with harvests at all when all it needs to do is activate a crucible device at the end of each cycle?

Also, why would the energy pulse be even necessary for the control or distroy endings if each Reaper nanite is entangled with the catalyst? Is there some level of autonomy between reapers (which I guess would be necessary to avoid n^(n-1)/2 scale issues)? 

[atheelogos]

where are you guys getting this whole thing about the Crucible creating the nanites? I think the OP said a few times that he thinks the Citadel creates them and the Crucible distributes them.

[Yate]

Neat thread!

[inko1nsiderate]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
FTL used a magic space stone to reduce the size of the ship.

Oh really?

Anyway, that "magic space stone" was well explained. Eezo can generate a field that effects the mass of objects when exposed to current. This field can then be used to allow the ship to travel at FTL because the energy needed to propel the ship at those speeds becomes infinitely less due to Einstein's equations.

Synthesis is "This thing will do the impossible because we said so."

Difference.

Oh.  My. Gauss.  No, no amillion times.  Reducing an object to zero mass makes it only move AT the speed of light. Not faster.  To get FTL speeds in the current scientific framework of relativity you must have a complex mass, this is the idea behind tacyons, but even these particles had significant technical challenges.

You cannot boost a massless particle to a frame that is moving faster than c relative to another frame if Lorentz Invariance is strictly conserved.  This is scientific fact.

Einstein's equation, E=Mc^2 is only true in the rest frame of a massive particle, for massless particles the energy is E=pc. This is the problem with Mass Effect fields.  It basically throws out relativity.  That is why I don't see any reason to bring it up in any sort of speculation in the ME universe.  It isn't clear in anyway on how you reconcile relativity with Mass Effect fields and how this modifies Lorentz transformations, and thus Quantum Field Theory, and how you would go about determing how observables change when going from a Lorentz frame to an FTL frame.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 16 septembre 2012 - 09:56 .

[V-rcingetorix]

Okay, getting beyond my pay grade, but here's my two bits.

Biotics affect mass, that much we know. Assuming the Relays affect mass in the same way an asari would, I can draw some conclusions.

First: a unique element (Element Zero), when ionized, affects the fabric of the universe.

Second: This element either changes the space/time continuum around matter, or converts part of the matter to energy, then reconverts it to mass without damaging the molecular structure.

Judging how Sovereign class Reapers are more easily damaged when they turn (reducing shield power to "reduce mass"), I would assume that the simplist answer would be an alteration of mass, which would either be an alteration of volume or density, or some interaction of the two. This makes sense in light of the First Rule of Thermodynamics (Energy can neither be created nor destroyed), this means that only the form of matter is affected, not its presence.

Element Zero, therefore, affects the composition, or energy surrounding, matter. Change the rules, and suddenly many things are possible.

Some rules are still in effect, however. For example, the speed of light. Sensors still require data fed to them as light approaches, not as events occur hundreds of lightyears away.

Going with the Quantum Particle communicators, one Mass Relay which affects itself (a high energy element) and the matter around it, can affect a lot of area. FTL barriers are ignored when Quantum links are thrown in, and the problem is no longer why the Mass Relays fire to each other, but why the Mass Relays didn't all fire simultaneously.

TLDR version:

A Quantum particle communicator in the Crucible/Catalyst fires off the signal, the signal is fed to the Mass Relays, and each fed a huge amount of energy from the Crucible/Catalyst. Energy turns to matter in the shape it is programmed to have (E=MC^2, as stated by the OP). Therefore, simultaneous signals/programs sent out across the galaxy, from one central location.

The beauty of it is that better upgrades allow refinement of the process, so potentially, this signal would affect only Reapers, and not destroy Shepard/Geth/EDI, depending on your ending choice.


EDIT:
Just want to say how cool it is to see a thread with people analyzing ME3 with seriousness; who knows, maybe this will lead to a thesis paper on FTL potential with antimatter!

Modifié par V-rcingetorix, 17 septembre 2012 - 02:54 .

[MyChemicalBromance]

Reply wave inbound....

Ieldra2 wrote...
Anyway, I like your explanation, especially since it explains a part of Synthesis. Now if you can come up with an explanation how Shepard comes into it we could bury the talk of space magic once and for all. Unfortunately, I don't think we can.

I've struggled with this as well, in particular in the synthesis ending. The only thing I can think of is that it was a kind of "challenge" instigated by the Catalyst itself. "If an organic would end its existance to create synthesis (and thus immortality) for the rest, then that organic/those organics are ready."

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
FTL used a magic space stone to reduce the size of the ship.

Oh really?

Anyway, that "magic space stone" was well explained. Eezo can generate a field that effects the mass of objects when exposed to current. This field can then be used to allow the ship to travel at FTL because the energy needed to propel the ship at those speeds becomes infinitely less due to Einstein's equations.

Synthesis is "This thing will do the impossible because we said so."

Difference.

Oh.  My. Gauss.  No, no amillion times.  Reducing an object to zero mass makes it only move AT the speed of light. Not faster.  To get FTL speeds in the current scientific framework of relativity you must have a complex mass, this is the idea behind tacyons, but even these particles had significant technical challenges.

You cannot boost a massless particle to a frame that is moving faster than c relative to another frame if Lorentz Invariance is strictly conserved.  This is scientific fact.

Einstein's equation, E=Mc^2 is only true in the rest frame of a massive particle, for massless particles the energy is E=pc. This is the problem with Mass Effect fields.  It basically throws out relativity.  That is why I don't see any reason to bring it up in any sort of speculation in the ME universe.  It isn't clear in anyway on how you reconcile relativity with Mass Effect fields and how this modifies Lorentz transformations, and thus Quantum Field Theory, and how you would go about determing how observables change when going from a Lorentz frame to an FTL frame.

Inko is right, and this is part of why I didn't account for relativity in the energy equation.

For relativity

E=(mc^2)/((1-(v/c))^2)^0.5)  (please excuse the horrible format)

You'll notice that if an object with mass is traveling at the speed of light (v=c), then the amount of energy it possesses is undefined (infinite). This is even true for an object with 0 mass, (0/0 is still undefined). When you exceed it, the amount of energy becomes complex (root of a negative number). The only way to reconcile this is for the mass of the object to also be complex (i(c^2))/i=c^2)

Modifié par MyChemicalBromance, 21 septembre 2012 - 01:59 .

[Malanek]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...
 
The Little Big Picture
In Mass Effect: Retribution, it was specifically stated by The Illusive Man that the husk conversion was facilitated by “Nanites” which communicated with the Reapers via quantum entanglement. While no exact size was given, Nanites, nanomachines, or nanobots are robots whose components can be easily measured at the Nano-scale (10^-9 meters). We currently have entire machines in the 0.1 micrometer to 1.0 micrometer range (100 nanometers to 1000 nanometers), with the smallest component (a switch) measuring 1.5 nanometers. Reaper technology could be (and is demonstrably) much more advanced.
(micrometers will be referred to as µm from now on, and nanometers will be referred to as nm)
Why is this relevant? “A new, DNA.”
 
As you can see, the objects that approach the DNA are incredibly small. Individually, the inner spheres look small enough to be measured on the femto-scale (10^-15 meters). This is the scale that the nuclei of atoms are measured on. When we consider that these objects then augment the DNA cooperatively, it becomes apparent that the Reapers have developed a technology that is unbelievably advanced. I find it hard to believe that manufacturing such technology could be possible without the mass effect, and as such attribute its existence to the Reaper’s utter mastery of mass effect technology. In some ways, I think Synthesis is more impressive than the Mass Relays. The answer to our questions does depend on the Mass Relays however.

lmxar wrote...

Especially when the OP called the atoms in the model "inner spheres."

I was referring to the inner spheres of the "components" in the synthesis picture. It's what the line is pointing to on the picture.

Can you explain how synthesis can possibly not violate the law of conservation of mass? That's kind of a well understood and fundamental law of modern (1900+) chemistry.

[Hudathan]

I enjoyed that OP it's a very interesting thing to think about.

With that said, it never fails to amuse me when I read things like 'so and so isn't possible' when discussing a piece of science fiction. Even if we were talking about real life science, the idea that there is more to the universe than we thought possible is essential to the pursuit of science to begin with.

Can you imagine if the entire human race just thought 'well that's not possible' every time a new idea is proposed? We would all still be living in caves while teaching our kids which berries are safe to eat.

[Malanek]

Hudathan wrote...
With that said, it never fails to amuse me when I read things like 'so and so isn't possible' when discussing a piece of science fiction. Even if we were talking about real life science, the idea that there is more to the universe than we thought possible is essential to the pursuit of science to begin with.

Can you imagine if the entire human race just thought 'well that's not possible' every time a new idea is proposed? We would all still be living in caves while teaching our kids which berries are safe to eat.

Err hang on, this thread was created by someone defending the science behind it. When you do so surely you can't start to complain about people challenging what was said?

There is a line where science fiction becomes science fantasy. Mass effect was pretty close to this line for the most part, but the ending, IMO, shifted it well into the science fantasy genre, which was a bit irritating. If you decide to go down the science fantasy path, which is perfectly fine, I don't think you should try and make scientific explanations for anything. ME did quite a few times and the presentation felt more like science fiction.

[Hudathan]

Malanek999 wrote...

Err hang on, this thread was created by someone defending the science behind it. When you do so surely you can't start to complain about people challenging what was said?

There is a line where science fiction becomes science fantasy. Mass effect was pretty close to this line for the most part, but the ending, IMO, shifted it well into the science fantasy genre, which was a bit irritating. If you decide to go down the science fantasy path, which is perfectly fine, I don't think you should try and make scientific explanations for anything. ME did quite a few times and the presentation felt more like science fiction.

The OP never claimed to know the exact science behind it, he simply presented an intriguing look at what it might be which is the best influence science and sci-fi can have on someone. Sci-fi needs room to breathe because the goal is to inspire and enrich our imagination. Limiting how far you can take sci-fi just goes against what sci-fi is in my book, because then we're basically saying that the human mind is only capable of imagining the next step forward but two steps is unacceptable.

[MyChemicalBromance]

Malanek999 wrote...

Can you explain how synthesis can possibly not violate the law of conservation of mass? That's kind of a well understood and fundamental law of modern (1900+) chemistry.

Can you explain how eezo and Mass Effect fields can possibly not violate the law of conservation of mass?

Though you'll have to be more specific for me to attempt any real answer at your question (read: more specific than the OP was), it's not exactly an uncommon thing in the Mass Effect series when energy and matter go missing. If you can explain to me how running a current through a substance releases dark energy in the form of a field, and then how being within that field somehow reduces the an object's mass, we can all stop arguing about this and go look for aliens to screw.

[MyChemicalBromance]

o Ventus wrote...

So instead of "stupid BS", it's "marginally less stupid BS".

I don't mean to be harsh, but godbots are hardly a better narrative resolution than unadulterated space magic.

You're right. There's never been synthetics akin to deities in the Mass Effect narrative before 3. I hang my head in shame.

[NS Wizdum]

Interesting theory. I like it. In science fiction an explanation does not have to cover every minute detail, it just needs to explain enough to make the reader/viewer believe that it could be true. Our problem is that since Bioware failed to do this for us, ME3 has been analyzed so much that you're going to find problems with every theory. Nothing can be perfect.

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

Rofl. Your Technotalk didn't provide a lot of ground support.

You're making calculations based off pictures.
Time has been wasted, or you C&P'd.
Critical Mission Failure.

[Peranor]

 
I'm sure most of you have read about this allready. But space magic theories for real is just to fascinating not to re-post 
http://www.space.com...paceflight.html


E=mc^(OMG)/WTF

[MyChemicalBromance]

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...
You're making calculations based off pictures.

I've already responded to things a long the lines of the rest of your post, but this part stuck out. If you're upset because I derived estimates from pictures for my calculations, you need to have a long think about how astronomy works.

[MyChemicalBromance]

anorling wrote...



 
I'm sure most of you have read about this allready. But space magic theories for real is just to fascinating not to re-post 
http://www.space.com...paceflight.html


E=mc^(OMG)/WTF

That's the same design I linked in the OP.

That article is interesting (it doesn't really give any reason why changing the shape of the ring changes the energy requirements from possibly being more than what's in the galaxy, to what you could get from a non-critical pile of plutonium), but a bigger problem than energy is how you would actually leave the warp bubble.

Unlike mass effect fields, this warp bubble won't go away when you turn the engine off. It will continue indefinitely, and as far as I understand there's no way to fly out of it. Secondly, if you figure that out, you'd also need to figure out how to know where you are. You wouldn't be able to measure anything in front of you, so I guess you'd have to time it (a relativistic nightmere) from launch, aim perfectly, fly blind, and hope your math holds up.

Still, interesting.