28 réponses à ce sujet

[eroeru]

 

Maybe we'd need more emphasis on camp-dialogue that needen't be unlocked with items, yet is difficult to acquire. If whilst talking to a character, the others would at some point go to sleep, then there'd be interesting planning of "who to communicate the most to", and the realistic conclusion that you cannot make all companions your true friends due to time constraints (+ people to whom you devout more time will possibly feel more for you).


I took this out of the other thread ("Should there be romance in DA3?"), because it didn't exactly relate with OP's idea.

But I did flesh the concept out a bit more there. If you'd like some more reasoning behind it, take a look.


Thoughts? Ideas?

Modifié par eroeru, 13 septembre 2012 - 06:34 .

[Rylor Tormtor]

I wonder if something like environmental triggers might be a good way to approach it. Say you have a Daelish elf in your party and while exploring a forest you come across the wreck of an aravel. If you aforementioned elf is with you, when you click on the wreck you get a little description of the land ships, halla, and what not from the elf. Then maybe a prompt or something like "Elfy McElf looks pensive, maybe you should ask him about it next time you are in camp/you have a chance". If they are not with you, then there could be a prompt when examining the aravel that "Elfy McElf might know more about these things, you can ask them next time you have a chance."

This has the advantage of gating personal information as well as encouraging different party compositions for something besides battle efficacy. If I remember, Bioware has already taken advantage of the present party member environment activation, but the call back option (talking to companions about things you have seen without them) could have the advantage of letting the PC get to know the other characters (the archer companion you never take because you are an archer and so on).

The problem with this in continuity, Information and discussion would have be parceled out (gated by Act?) so it would not clash with current relationship status (i.e. You and Elfy McElfy are best friends and have been holding hands and whispering sweet nothings in your ear, then all of a sudden he gruffly describes daelish face painting as if you are some crazy shem he has just met.

Needless to say it is a bit of challenge. My only hope is less repetition this time. While you could run out the dialogue options in DAO and get caught in loops one in a while (I am looking at you Sten), for me at least this was preferable to endless repeating phrases from companions like Aveline and Merril (Yes Aveline, we know the guard feels different and it feels like home, now shut your man jaw!).

Modifié par Rylor Tormtor, 13 septembre 2012 - 06:55 .

[Kidd]

The problem with your idea, Rylor, as opposed to the OP's, is that you can simply shuffle party compositions depending on where you're going to get all those scenes. eroeru's idea is far more exclusive, for better and for worse =)

[Maria Caliban]

It would probably be easier if you posted your reasons to this thread instead of just having the link.

Some comments though.

1. The Love Button - A direct response to player complaints in DA:O. People would inadvertently start romances (Aw, Alister is giving me a rose, isn't that nice?) or miss romance suggestions (No, Leliana, I don't want to talk about my hair.) Given they moved to using icons, the heart icon wasn't a bad idea.

What I'd like to see is them further decouple the heart icon from being a guaranteed romance. It simply indicates that your PC is attempting to flirt with or show interest in another character, pops up whenever appropriate, and may or may not mean anything in the long run.

2. Sleepiness - Having written one comment, I find I am tired and instead of continuing or finishing this list, I'm going to head to bed.

[MichaelStuart]

I like the idea of having to choose who you can talk to.

[Wulfram]

I think we get little enough interaction with our companions as it is, without making a big chunk of it inaccessible in a given playthrough.

Modifié par Wulfram, 13 septembre 2012 - 12:26 .

[Rylor Tormtor]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It would probably be easier if you posted your reasons to this thread instead of just having the link.

Some comments though.

1. The Love Button - A direct response to player complaints in DA:O. People would inadvertently start romances (Aw, Alister is giving me a rose, isn't that nice?) or miss romance suggestions (No, Leliana, I don't want to talk about my hair.) Given they moved to using icons, the heart icon wasn't a bad idea.

What I'd like to see is them further decouple the heart icon from being a guaranteed romance. It simply indicates that your PC is attempting to flirt with or show interest in another character, pops up whenever appropriate, and may or may not mean anything in the long run.

2. Sleepiness - Having written one comment, I find I am tired and instead of continuing or finishing this list, I'm going to head to bed.

I think 1 is more due to some people feeling like a certain leather loving elf was a bit too forward, which may have more to do with people's hang ups or not. 

I am of two minds. In a meta-game sense it is advantageous to have the notification, but in many ways I think it reduces the situation to numbers (Finally, one more flirt and I get the Man's Best Friend Achievement! Now where is that dog?!). I like it better when relationships grow out of dialogue though. I mean, you are never forced to do anything unless you are mindlessly picking options for relationship boni. 

[wright1978]

Wulfram wrote...

I think we get little enough interaction with out companions as it is, without making a big chunk of it inaccessible in a given playthrough.

Agree completely blocking off access to interactions is a bad idea.

What i would be in favour of is player actions having an impact on companion affection. Sort of a refinement of DAO concept of characters disaproving of actions in key quests(Alistair disaproving lopping off connor's head/using blood magic even if you don't take him on quest etc). The only issue with DAO approach was ability to buff affection back up too easily.

[Knight of Dane]

I liked how Sten was handled in DA:O if you brought him along he would comment on the world and open up possible dialogue choises for you to trigger whenever you want to.

So If it should only apply to one set of companions maybe they should interact in one time cut scenes and dialogue where they could open up to further clarification on those you bring along?

[eroeru]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It would probably be easier if you posted your reasons to this thread instead of just having the link.

Some comments though.

1. The Love Button - A direct response to player complaints in DA:O. People would inadvertently start romances (Aw, Alister is giving me a rose, isn't that nice?) or miss romance suggestions (No, Leliana, I don't want to talk about my hair.) Given they moved to using icons, the heart icon wasn't a bad idea.

What I'd like to see is them further decouple the heart icon from being a guaranteed romance. It simply indicates that your PC is attempting to flirt with or show interest in another character, pops up whenever appropriate, and may or may not mean anything in the long run.

2. Sleepiness - Having written one comment, I find I am tired and instead of continuing or finishing this list, I'm going to head to bed.

1. Then there should be at least many of these "love buttons" - with one it's far too simplistic and boring. Though I still believe it's a bad mechanic. Reactions to what you say need just be unexpected, in a large degree. It's what makes dialogue work as interactive.

2. 
The merits of the idea were for me that the game felt a bit more natural and decision-heavy (always a good thing, no matter the shallow complaints, people even unknowingly like a natural feeling to virtual reality, and decision/choice-heavy games). The idea would do great things for replayability. Also, I personally would then re-load less to see different dialogue - as reloading would become just too much of a hassle - which is also in my opinion a good thing.

(not saying the idea itself is perfect - I am really doubtful, hence thank you for the discussion and opinions)

Modifié par eroeru, 13 septembre 2012 - 01:09 .

[CuriousArtemis]

About the love button ... I didn't mind it in DA2, and I have to admit, when I played DA:O, I was constantly stressed out about not triggering a romance or missing the proper response to get whomever to express interest in my Warden. So DA2 relieved some of that stress for me.

But maybe the love button was overkill for some people? Maybe just make the flirt lines very obvious.

Another thing I want is the ability to have a shy PC. I like characters like Zevran and Anders who hit on the PC first. But even when Anders makes his confession, Hawke's only available response are 1. horny-yes, 2. surprised-but-horny-yes, and 3. HELL NO FREAK. A fourth and fifth option would have been nice: 4. (shy) Oh, um ... you like me? *smile* and 5. (polite just friends) *embarrassed* I like you, Anders, but not like that ... sorry, mate... *smile*

Anyone who claims to have gotten ninja-romanced is just silly. They are all very obvious, and like I said, the PC has to instigate most of the romances. Even with Zevran you have to chose obvious flirt lines.

The real problem was accidentally missing lines, like Leliana's, that would trigger romance.

[esper]

motomotogirl wrote...

About the love button ... I didn't mind it in DA2, and I have to admit, when I played DA:O, I was constantly stressed out about not triggering a romance or missing the proper response to get whomever to express interest in my Warden. So DA2 relieved some of that stress for me.

But maybe the love button was overkill for some people? Maybe just make the flirt lines very obvious.

Another thing I want is the ability to have a shy PC. I like characters like Zevran and Anders who hit on the PC first. But even when Anders makes his confession, Hawke's only available response are 1. horny-yes, 2. surprised-but-horny-yes, and 3. HELL NO FREAK. A fourth and fifth option would have been nice: 4. (shy) Oh, um ... you like me? *smile* and 5. (polite just friends) *embarrassed* I like you, Anders, but not like that ... sorry, mate... *smile*

Anyone who claims to have gotten ninja-romanced is just silly. They are all very obvious, and like I said, the PC has to instigate most of the romances. Even with Zevran you have to chose obvious flirt lines.

The real problem was accidentally missing lines, like Leliana's, that would trigger romance.

No, she would actively ninja-mance you. There is a two dialogs for her vs. Zevran. In the first your warden can express, something in the direction off. 'It is nothing serious'. Since it is with Zevran, Leliana believes you.

The second dialog, is when both her and Zevrans are in 'serious' love mode. Leliana basically chews you off and doing that she refers to the first conversation.

The conversation basically goes something like this:
Leli: Who could you! You said that it was nothing serious between you and Zevran, but I see the way you look at each other
Warden: (When did I ever say that? )
Warden:..sorry?
  Leliana: You had too choose.
Warden: Sigh... (I am so never talking to Leliana again)

Basically she would jump straigh into serious romance (second conversation stage) without giving any indication off it before hand, hence -mancing.

Modifié par esper, 13 septembre 2012 - 07:41 .

[ReallyRue]

motomotogirl wrote...
Anyone who claims to have gotten ninja-romanced is just silly. They are all very obvious, and like I said, the PC has to instigate most of the romances. Even with Zevran you have to chose obvious flirt lines.

The real problem was accidentally missing lines, like Leliana's, that would trigger romance.

Uh... that's a contradiction. It's 'silly' to have gotten ninja-manced because the flirt lines are 'obvious', yet Leliana's flirt lines about hair are easy to 'miss'? Doesn't that suggest that someone might pick the romantic option in the hair conversation, which I assume is "you like my hair? Oh thank you!" (because none of the lines in that conversations were overtly romantic), and accidentally trigger her romance.

Leliana's the only one I've ever been ninjamanced by. Even after the "I see you as a friend" conversation with her, she was wailing at my Warden for romancing Zevran.

I agree about the opportunity for shy/reserved protagonists though, or just a variety of personality options in general. It would make a lovely change.

Modifié par ReallyRue, 13 septembre 2012 - 07:46 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Oh, sorry guys; I've never romanced Leliana, so I thought people were saying that it was easy to miss triggering her romance ... not the other way around! Wow, that feisty bard xD

[CuriousArtemis]

Logan Cloud wrote...

I got ninjamanced hard by Anders.

I was pretty much backed into a corner where I either had to have sex with him, or tell him to GTFO. Like, those were literally the only two options.

That's what I get for being nice I guess. Anders loooooooves diplomatic Hawke.

He does, but I've played DA2 at least ten times and have never "accidentally" gotten involved with Anders. Don't use flirt icons and he will never, ever show up at Hawke's door.

[Wulfram]

If you were ninja-manced early on, it basically worked - they gave a "hey, do you think you might be interested in me" sort of thing, you said "no", it was maybe sort of awkward but no more than might happen in real life.

Unfortunately DA:O didn't distinguish between "Had a romance" and "Good friends who said something vaguely flirty once" and this caused severe weirdness if you not ninja-manced later on in the game.

And I think one of Leliana's conversations was actually bugged for female characters or something, though I'm not very familiar with bugs related to not wanting to romance Leliana

[eroeru]

motomotogirl wrote...
Wow, that feisty bard xD

That sums up the "issue". People in Thedas are easily lead on, and are very feisty, uncompromising and unforgiving later on (if you perhaps change your mind).

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

1. The Love Button - A direct response to player complaints in DA:O. People would inadvertently start romances (Aw, Alister is giving me a rose, isn't that nice?) or miss romance suggestions (No, Leliana, I don't want to talk about my hair.)

Those complaints, I think, should have been ignored.  DAO's romance dialogue worked extremely well.

Yes, you could miss out on a romance with Leliana by being unable to talk about your hair, but that just means that you and Leliana aren't compatible.  The only thing missing was the chance not to take the hint and hit on her anyway, only to get shot down.

[SerTabris]

motomotogirl wrote...

About the love button ... I didn't mind it in DA2, and I have to admit, when I played DA:O, I was constantly stressed out about not triggering a romance or missing the proper response to get whomever to express interest in my Warden. So DA2 relieved some of that stress for me.

But maybe the love button was overkill for some people? Maybe just make the flirt lines very obvious.

Another thing I want is the ability to have a shy PC. I like characters like Zevran and Anders who hit on the PC first. But even when Anders makes his confession, Hawke's only available response are 1. horny-yes, 2. surprised-but-horny-yes, and 3. HELL NO FREAK. A fourth and fifth option would have been nice: 4. (shy) Oh, um ... you like me? *smile* and 5. (polite just friends) *embarrassed* I like you, Anders, but not like that ... sorry, mate... *smile*

Anyone who claims to have gotten ninja-romanced is just silly. They are all very obvious, and like I said, the PC has to instigate most of the romances. Even with Zevran you have to chose obvious flirt lines.

The real problem was accidentally missing lines, like Leliana's, that would trigger romance.

I also had a problem with Hawke's responses in that conversation. I don't even mind the forced rivalry points as much as being forced to feel that I deserved it.

I'm not so sure about making the flirt lines "obvious", since that's rather subjective. Maybe just an ability to toggle the indicator?

[Sylvius the Mad]

SerTabris wrote...

Maybe just an ability to toggle the indicator?

Turning off the tone icons altogether might even be valuable.

I wonder if I could mod that in...

[eroeru]

Wow. I just now suggested the very same idea in the "Bioware asking fans" thread.

Though some sort of meshing would also be nice to the wheel-madgig.

[PsychoBlonde]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

I wonder if something like environmental triggers might be a good way to approach it. Say you have a Daelish elf in your party and while exploring a forest you come across the wreck of an aravel. If you aforementioned elf is with you, when you click on the wreck you get a little description of the land ships, halla, and what not from the elf. Then maybe a prompt or something like "Elfy McElf looks pensive, maybe you should ask him about it next time you are in camp/you have a chance". If they are not with you, then there could be a prompt when examining the aravel that "Elfy McElf might know more about these things, you can ask them next time you have a chance."

This has the advantage of gating personal information as well as encouraging different party compositions for something besides battle efficacy. If I remember, Bioware has already taken advantage of the present party member environment activation, but the call back option (talking to companions about things you have seen without them) could have the advantage of letting the PC get to know the other characters (the archer companion you never take because you are an archer and so on).

The problem with this in continuity, Information and discussion would have be parceled out (gated by Act?) so it would not clash with current relationship status (i.e. You and Elfy McElfy are best friends and have been holding hands and whispering sweet nothings in your ear, then all of a sudden he gruffly describes daelish face painting as if you are some crazy shem he has just met.

Needless to say it is a bit of challenge. My only hope is less repetition this time. While you could run out the dialogue options in DAO and get caught in loops one in a while (I am looking at you Sten), for me at least this was preferable to endless repeating phrases from companions like Aveline and Merril (Yes Aveline, we know the guard feels different and it feels like home, now shut your man jaw!).

These are all really good points, for instance, they had continuity problems with Sten's triggered dialogs in Origins depending on what order you went to the various areas.

Personally, I don't like arbitrary developer-induced restrictions, such as, if they decided "you can only max out 3 companions regardless of what you do".  If you have to be careful, ****-foot around companions, not take some of them to touchy spots, okay.  If there's a hard limit of "3 companions maxed out cause we want to force you to play again". . . that'd probably ****** me off.

I prefer to be able to access the vast majority of the content regardless of my character build, and just have the WAY in which I can access it change.

[frostajulie]

in this case more is better and less is not more so I do not like the idea of blocking access to more NPC dialogue