32 réponses à ce sujet

[StElmo]

One major criticism I have of Mass Effect 3 is it's largly decreased player agency - there was less sense of control and interaction and the player takes a back seat as a result.

I think Dragon Age 3 has got to do the complete opposite, and, if anything, increase player agency:

 - Never allow the player character to speak without dialogue choices.
 - Never shoehorn plotpoints that conflict with player choice / roleplaying.

I hope that the DA team are focusing on this for DA3, as it is crucial to the praise BioWare games have recieved in the past.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I think David Gaider has said that they wouldn't do auto dialog to the extent ME 3 had because Shepard is a more fixed character than the DA team like to have.

[fchopin]

Shinian2 wrote...

I think David Gaider has said that they wouldn't do auto dialog to the extent ME 3 had because Shepard is a more fixed character than the DA team like to have.

That is not really what he said, but if you want to take it that way it’s up to you.

[MichaelStuart]

I never real saw auto dialog as a loss of control.
Still the more control the player has over there character the better.

[Uccio]

If it happens ala ME3 then it´s one more reason not to buy the game.

[fchopin]

MichaelStuart wrote...

I never real saw auto dialog as a loss of control.
Still the more control the player has over there character the better.

If you play a set character then you don’t really lose control because the writers can stay within the character dynamics but if it’s a player character controlled then there is no way you can use auto dialogue without breaking some of the player character control.

[MichaelStuart]

fchopin wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I never real saw auto dialog as a loss of control.
Still the more control the player has over there character the better.

If you play a set character then you don’t really lose control because the writers can stay within the character dynamics but if it’s a player character controlled then there is no way you can use auto dialogue without breaking some of the player character control.

I Agree, but when a character says the logical contuination of what I started, I see it has no loss.
But I can understand if people would disagree with that.

[fchopin]

MichaelStuart wrote...

fchopin wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I never real saw auto dialog as a loss of control.
Still the more control the player has over there character the better.

If you play a set character then you don’t really lose control because the writers can stay within the character dynamics but if it’s a player character controlled then there is no way you can use auto dialogue without breaking some of the player character control.

I Agree, but when a character says the logical contuination of what I started, I see it has no loss.
But I can understand if people would disagree with that.

Yes but the people don’t want to play a set character like Geralt or Shepard, they want to create their own character so there is no way Bioware can use auto dialogue without breaking the players character.I dont mind as i play both kinds.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

fchopin wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

I think David Gaider has said that they wouldn't do auto dialog to the extent ME 3 had because Shepard is a more fixed character than the DA team like to have.

That is not really what he said, but if you want to take it that way it’s up to you.

What did he say?

[fchopin]

Shinian2 wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

I think David Gaider has said that they wouldn't do auto dialog to the extent ME 3 had because Shepard is a more fixed character than the DA team like to have.

That is not really what he said, but if you want to take it that way it’s up to you.

What did he say?

From what i remember he said that he did not think they would use auto dialogue to the extent that ME3 did, thinking and knowing have two different meanings.

[MichaelStuart]

fchopin wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

fchopin wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I never real saw auto dialog as a loss of control.
Still the more control the player has over there character the better.

If you play a set character then you don’t really lose control because the writers can stay within the character dynamics but if it’s a player character controlled then there is no way you can use auto dialogue without breaking some of the player character control.

I Agree, but when a character says the logical contuination of what I started, I see it has no loss.
But I can understand if people would disagree with that.

Yes but the people don’t want to play a set character like Geralt or Shepard, they want to create their own character so there is no way Bioware can use auto dialogue without breaking the players character.I dont mind as i play both kinds.

I can understand people not wanting to play a set character.
But I have never really understood how shepard can be thought of as a set character when I can change almost everything about him/her?
I suppose it just comes down to opinion.

[fchopin]

MichaelStuart wrote...

I can understand people not wanting to play a set character.
But I have never really understood how shepard can be thought of as a set character when I can change almost everything about him/her?
I suppose it just comes down to opinion.

In ME1 you could change Shepard but not in ME3, in ME3 he or she became a set character very similar to Geralt.

[Cultist]

Shinian2 wrote...

I think David Gaider has said that they wouldn't do auto dialog to the extent ME 3 had because Shepard is a more fixed character than the DA team like to have.

Source

David Gaider wrote...
I've talked about this before-- the amount of "auto-dialogue" (if that's what you want to call it) is unlikely to change much from DA2.
We tend to run with it once the player has made a choice of tone, and avoid the PC expressing opinions without direct input (so any comments are usually intro text or "tell me more" type lines). In fact, there will probably be less need even for those lines, due to things I shan't yet discuss.

Modifié par Cultist, 13 septembre 2012 - 04:02 .

[wright1978]

StElmo wrote...

One major criticism I have of Mass Effect 3 is it's largly decreased player agency - there was less sense of control and interaction and the player takes a back seat as a result.

I think Dragon Age 3 has got to do the complete opposite, and, if anything, increase player agency:

 - Never allow the player character to speak without dialogue choices.
 - Never shoehorn plotpoints that conflict with player choice / roleplaying.

I hope that the DA team are focusing on this for DA3, as it is crucial to the praise BioWare games have recieved in the past.

Agree completely. The butchering of the previous elements of player characterisation of the protaganist in ME3 was horrid. Really hope that DA3 makes player agency a priority and that any auto-dialogue is non-characterising stuff and that ratehr than cinematics ruling the roost, player agency trumps flowing cinematics where flowing cinematics would define characterisation.

[MichaelStuart]

fchopin wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I can understand people not wanting to play a set character.
But I have never really understood how shepard can be thought of as a set character when I can change almost everything about him/her?
I suppose it just comes down to opinion.

In ME1 you could change Shepard but not in ME3, in ME3 he or she became a set character very similar to Geralt.

Still can't say I agree.
In ME3 I can change Shepard appearance, his/her attitude, even if couldn't control what Shepard said, I could still control the direction of conversions.
Also with Geralt, can he really called a set character when he has no personalty? or is it just his lack of personlty meant to be a character trait.

Note:I admit I have only played threw the first half of the Witcher, so my assessment is likely wrong.   

[fchopin]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Still can't say I agree.
In ME3 I can change Shepard appearance, his/her attitude, even if couldn't control what Shepard said, I could still control the direction of conversions.
Also with Geralt, can he really called a set character when he has no personalty? or is it just his lack of personlty meant to be a character trait.

Note:I admit I have only played threw the first half of the Witcher, so my assessment is likely wrong.   

Geralt not only has a personality but probably has one of the best personalities from all the games i played. If Bioware could create a personality like Geralt they would have a sure winner.
 
Changing face does not make a character have personality it takes a lot more.

[MichaelStuart]

fchopin wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

Still can't say I agree.
In ME3 I can change Shepard appearance, his/her attitude, even if couldn't control what Shepard said, I could still control the direction of conversions.
Also with Geralt, can he really called a set character when he has no personalty? or is it just his lack of personlty meant to be a character trait.

Note:I admit I have only played threw the first half of the Witcher, so my assessment is likely wrong.   

Geralt not only has a personality but probably has one of the best personalities from all the games i played. If Bioware could create a personality like Geralt they would have a sure winner.
 
Changing face does not make a character have personality it takes a lot more.

Fair enough,but I must ask.
Does any character really have a personality if I can choose what they say?

Modifié par MichaelStuart, 13 septembre 2012 - 05:23 .

[Darth Death]

Cultist wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

I think David Gaider has said that they wouldn't do auto dialog to the extent ME 3 had because Shepard is a more fixed character than the DA team like to have.

Source

David Gaider wrote...
I've talked about this before-- the amount of "auto-dialogue" (if that's what you want to call it) is unlikely to change much from DA2.
We tend to run with it once the player has made a choice of tone, and avoid the PC expressing opinions without direct input (so any comments are usually intro text or "tell me more" type lines). In fact, there will probably be less need even for those lines, due to things I shan't yet discuss.

As much as I hate auto-dialogue, I think it's more forgiving in a DA game than ME. In ME/ME2, the player got to choose what Shep's tone could be like, but in ME3 that wasn't the case. The player had to sit & watch Shep say/do things outside what gamers expected their already established character they've created from the past two previous installments would say/do. Since DA isn't a trilogy, with every protagonist being brand new, auto-dialogue is a little bit more tolerable having it exist initially when the game starts. We don't know what to expect from the protagonist & never invested any sort of bonds in him/her yet. With that said, NO AUTO-DIALOGUE thank you.   

Modifié par Darth Death, 13 septembre 2012 - 05:43 .

[Maria Caliban]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Does any character really have a personality if I can choose what they say?

Yes.

[CuriousArtemis]

StElmo wrote...

 - Never allow the player character to speak without dialogue choices.
 - Never shoehorn plotpoints that conflict with player choice / roleplaying.

Like so many things posted to these forums, this is just your opinion (an opinion shared by many, but still). I happen to love auto-dialogue and I'm not even sure what "plot points that conflict with player choice" are. Maybe I wish Hawke had had a chance to stop/kill Tallis, so he should have been able to chase after her ... and if BW wanted to, they could have let her get away. I wouldn't have minded that. But stuff like that doesn't kill the game for me. 

[Wozearly]

MichaelStuart wrote...

I Agree, but when a character says the logical contuination of what I started, I see it has no loss.
But I can understand if people would disagree with that.

I agree...but unfortunately that kind of auto-progression in dialogue has an unnerving tendency to lead to an illogical continuation of what I started. Or have me going "Wait, what?" because I misjudged the tone of voice the character would say it in, and what I thought would be a mild rebuke comes out as a highly aggresive rant.

Not always, by any stretch. But more than once is annoying.

[fchopin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

Does any character really have a personality if I can choose what they say?

Yes.

Sorry for the delay but my answer is the same as Marias.

[eroeru]

Nothing to add but "yes".

[StElmo]

thanks for all the +1s guys

[Kidd]

MichaelStuart wrote...

I Agree, but when a character says the logical contuination of what I started, I see it has no loss.
But I can understand if people would disagree with that.

Agreed, which is why I'm not worried about auto-dialogue in DA3 since it never bothered me in DA2. David Gaider seems to be of the right idea where your character may sometimes say a short line that doesn't showcase any opinion, but just to further the scene. I'm okay with that. As long as my character doesn't start telling people about how my companion is a blood mage in front of somebody with ties to the templars without my input, I'm game (I'm looking at you, ME3 ).

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:56 .