153 réponses à ce sujet

[SentinelShepParagon]

 So, I don't know if there is already a thread about this, but I just realized that the Leviathan DLC pretty much kills IT.

In this DLC, the Catalyst is portrayed as a real thing that the Leviathans made, and its motives are presented as its actual motives in reality. It is not some made up hoax that is a last ditch effort to indoctrinate Shepard. It is an actually thing made by actual beings with actual motives that it was programmed to carry out by its actual creators. This seems to pretty overwhelmingly imply that the encounter with the Catalyst at the end of the game is, in fact, real. He exists, just like the Leviathan said he does, and his motives are the same as the Leviathan says they are. 

The only way to get around this would be to suggest that the whole Leviathan encounter was a dream, but come on. That would be such a HUGE stretch that it is almost laughable. Maybe you could say that the Reapers just used what the Leviathan said in their indoctrination attempt of Shepard, but that seems to be unlikely since this DLC works so hard to give background to the Catalyst character. I doubt this would be the case if the end was just a dream sequence. It would really be a waste of time. I guess you could also say that it was the Leviathans seeking to Indoctrinate Shepard all along, and this is where it starts, but again, another big stretch.

If IT wasn't dead already, there is little hope of it being alive now.

Modifié par SentinelShepParagon, 13 septembre 2012 - 07:17 .

[Red Dust]

OR...Or. Shepard never left the Leviathans, they kept him on their planet as a thrall and everything else from that point is a hallucination.

I'm calling it Leviathan Theory, and I'll need to have some banners made. Preferably with a hypnotic cuttlefish GIF.

[Ithurael]

Oh god no...

I have seen them discussing this.

Here is a probable response:
Harbinger was able to read your mind and see the information that the Leviathans told you and thus posed as the 'Intelligence' in order to further indoctrinate you

[MB957]

I was beginning to think it was the leviathins all along, and there are no reapers. the levis have IT'd the whole galaxy!

and it is just a sick little game they are playing with their followers...making them build crucibles, which is really just a big levi ice cream maker!

they needed someone to fix it, since it was broken in the last cycle, and they only had one flavor for 50k years. now..they get 3 flavors!!! yay!!

[WarmechaM2]

SentinelShepParagon wrote...

 So, I don't know if there is already a thread about this, but I just realized that the Leviathan DLC pretty much kills IT.

In this DLC, the Catalyst is portrayed as a real thing that the Leviathans made, and its motives are presented as its actual motives in reality. It is not some made up hoax that is a last ditch effort to indoctrinate Shepard. It is an actually thing made by actual beings with actual motives that it was programmed to carry out by its actual creators. This seems to pretty overwhelmingly imply that the encounter with the Catalyst at the end of the game is, in fact, real. He exists, just like the Leviathan said he does, and his motives are the same as the Leviathan says they are. 

The only way to get around this would be to suggest that the whole Leviathan encounter was a dream, but come on. That would be such a HUGE stretch that it is almost laughable. Maybe you could say that the Reapers just used what the Leviathan said in their indoctrination attempt of Shepard, but that seems to be unlikely since this DLC works so hard to give background to the Catalyst character. I doubt this would be the case if the end was just a dream sequence. It would really be a waste of time. I guess you could also say that it was the Leviathans seeking to Indoctrinate Shepard all along, and this is where it starts, but again, another big stretch.

If IT wasn't dead already, there is little hope of it being alive now.

Oh my, such insight from such an "individual".. 

There as been many before this. In before threa lock. 

And if it does kill it then please do go in depth about how there is evidence in the leviathan dlc that complelty debunks every single point raised by the indoctraination theory. 

[SentinelShepParagon]

MB957 wrote...

I was beginning to think it was the leviathins all along, and there are no reapers. the levis have IT'd the whole galaxy!

and it is just a sick little game they are playing with their followers...making them build crucibles, which is really just a big levi ice cream maker!

they needed someone to fix it, since it was broken in the last cycle, and they only had one flavor for 50k years. now..they get 3 flavors!!! yay!!

Strawberry, blueberry, and lime? Those are lame ice cream flavors.

[MB957]

SentinelShepParagon wrote...

MB957 wrote...

I was beginning to think it was the leviathins all along, and there are no reapers. the levis have IT'd the whole galaxy!

and it is just a sick little game they are playing with their followers...making them build crucibles, which is really just a big levi ice cream maker!

they needed someone to fix it, since it was broken in the last cycle, and they only had one flavor for 50k years. now..they get 3 flavors!!! yay!!

Strawberry, blueberry, and lime? Those are lame ice cream flavors.

well...you could always just refuse!!

[SentinelShepParagon]

WarmechaM2 wrote...

SentinelShepParagon wrote...

 So, I don't know if there is already a thread about this, but I just realized that the Leviathan DLC pretty much kills IT.

In this DLC, the Catalyst is portrayed as a real thing that the Leviathans made, and its motives are presented as its actual motives in reality. It is not some made up hoax that is a last ditch effort to indoctrinate Shepard. It is an actually thing made by actual beings with actual motives that it was programmed to carry out by its actual creators. This seems to pretty overwhelmingly imply that the encounter with the Catalyst at the end of the game is, in fact, real. He exists, just like the Leviathan said he does, and his motives are the same as the Leviathan says they are. 

The only way to get around this would be to suggest that the whole Leviathan encounter was a dream, but come on. That would be such a HUGE stretch that it is almost laughable. Maybe you could say that the Reapers just used what the Leviathan said in their indoctrination attempt of Shepard, but that seems to be unlikely since this DLC works so hard to give background to the Catalyst character. I doubt this would be the case if the end was just a dream sequence. It would really be a waste of time. I guess you could also say that it was the Leviathans seeking to Indoctrinate Shepard all along, and this is where it starts, but again, another big stretch.

If IT wasn't dead already, there is little hope of it being alive now.

Oh my, such insight from such an "individual".. 

There as been many before this. In before threa lock. 

And if it does kill it then please do go in depth about how there is evidence in the leviathan dlc that complelty debunks every single point raised by the indoctraination theory. 

I didn't see any other threads about it; thats why I posted one. If I missed one and am just copying what it already said, then oh well, but I am certainly not copying anything intentionally. 

[SentinelShepParagon]

MB957 wrote...

SentinelShepParagon wrote...

MB957 wrote...

I was beginning to think it was the leviathins all along, and there are no reapers. the levis have IT'd the whole galaxy!

and it is just a sick little game they are playing with their followers...making them build crucibles, which is really just a big levi ice cream maker!

they needed someone to fix it, since it was broken in the last cycle, and they only had one flavor for 50k years. now..they get 3 flavors!!! yay!!

Strawberry, blueberry, and lime? Those are lame ice cream flavors.

well...you could always just refuse!!

Only if refuse is chocolate.

[MB957]

SentinelShepParagon wrote...

MB957 wrote...

SentinelShepParagon wrote...

MB957 wrote...

I was beginning to think it was the leviathins all along, and there are no reapers. the levis have IT'd the whole galaxy!

and it is just a sick little game they are playing with their followers...making them build crucibles, which is really just a big levi ice cream maker!

they needed someone to fix it, since it was broken in the last cycle, and they only had one flavor for 50k years. now..they get 3 flavors!!! yay!!

Strawberry, blueberry, and lime? Those are lame ice cream flavors.

well...you could always just refuse!!

Only if refuse is chocolate.

lol

oh..its chocolate alright...

[fchopin]

Red Dust wrote...

OR...Or. Shepard never left the Leviathans, they kept him on their planet as a thrall and everything else from that point is a hallucination.

I'm calling it Leviathan Theory, and I'll need to have some banners made. Preferably with a hypnotic cuttlefish GIF.

 The only problem with the theory is that the Leviathan is a DLC and not all people will play it in their game.

[D.Sharrah]

Why is the assumption with IT that "the endings are not real"? I believe IT, but have always thought of it as a mix of reality and hallucination. The hallucination part is the indoctrination attempt where the Reapers are trying to get Shep to make a choice favorable to them. The reality part, the choice and its consequence. Leviathan does not change that.

[Red Dust]

fchopin wrote...

Red Dust wrote...

OR...Or. Shepard never left the Leviathans, they kept him on their planet as a thrall and everything else from that point is a hallucination.

I'm calling it Leviathan Theory, and I'll need to have some banners made. Preferably with a hypnotic cuttlefish GIF.

 The only problem with the theory is that the Leviathan is a DLC and not all people will play it in their game.

Simply because the Leviathan removed the memory of their encounter for their Shepard's mind. That's how we roll in Leviathan theory. That's how we roll.

[SentinelShepParagon]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Why is the assumption with IT that "the endings are not real"? I believe IT, but have always thought of it as a mix of reality and hallucination. The hallucination part is the indoctrination attempt where the Reapers are trying to get Shep to make a choice favorable to them. The reality part, the choice and its consequence. Leviathan does not change that.

That is an interesting perspective, but that is really not the main IT viewpoint. The majority of the "official" IT is that the ending was a hallucination/dream/not reality. That is what I was saying is disproved. 

Your perspective is certainly plausible, but it is really impossible to falsify or verify, since we are not sure which parts are real and which parts are indoctrination.

[Ithurael]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Why is the assumption with IT that "the endings are not real"? I believe IT, but have always thought of it as a mix of reality and hallucination. The hallucination part is the indoctrination attempt where the Reapers are trying to get Shep to make a choice favorable to them. The reality part, the choice and its consequence. Leviathan does not change that.

I think the OP is talking about the IT Dream theory (being that the endings only happened in sheps head and he is still back on earth). The IT Con (or waking nightmare) theory is more applicable and very plausible. TTG will debate with you till the end of time about it lol.

IT Dream won't happen - we know this. but as for IT Con/waking nightmare it could be plausible.

Anyone who still believes that the endings never really happened though and we will still get a dlc to show what happens when shep 'wakes up' to finish the fight...is just living in denial.

It won't happen in ME4 (no more shepard) and it wont happen with post ending DLC. IT is plausible so long as there is no more to be had after you shoot the tube.

[Cheesesack]

IT has been dead for a long time. It's a shame; I was a staunch supporter of it in the beginning, but since EC and Leviathan, there is nothing more Bioware can do to kill it short of blatantly stating 'IT is false'. At this point, it just requires such a suspension of disbelief and glossing over of stuff in the game that it actually makes the current, rubbish endings look sensible. People are welcome to headcanon what they want, but that's all it will ever be.

[SentinelShepParagon]

Btw, I am NOT an IT-er at all (although I do find it interesting). Just so that you know where I am coming from.

Modifié par SentinelShepParagon, 13 septembre 2012 - 01:54 .

[CyberMiguel]

I think IT-con still works, as it basically says the AI tries to indoctrinate you to pick "teh reapers choice" and not the "correct" one.

[SentinelShepParagon]

CyberMiguel wrote...

I think IT-con still works, as it basically says the AI tries to indoctrinate you to pick "teh reapers choice" and not the "correct" one.

It is certainly plausible but really irrelevant. Whether or not the Reapers were trying to indoctrinate you to pick a certain choice doesn't matter because you still pick one and have to deal the with consequences regardless of whether they were "making" you pick it or not. Who "made" you pick it is doesn't matter as far as I am concerned, unless they were to come out with post-ending DLC (which they wont) or unless the "Reaper" ending had a really dark and evil epilogue sequence.

Modifié par SentinelShepParagon, 13 septembre 2012 - 01:58 .

[3DandBeyond]

Ok, I'm not saying that IT is my favorite thing of all time or anything, but why is it always an us vs. them thing in every discussion? I'm not saying that's what the OP's doing, but IT always has been a really well thought out theory and just as good as anything else-in many ways it was always far better than anything we got. It just was widely criticized for not having an ending-the game was released without one if IT was true. Well, funny thing here. No matter what the game was released without a real ending and for me, the ending is still non-existent. I may not have ever fully embraced IT, but it has merits-it still has merits.

Does the Leviathan ever say the kid is the catalyst and that he is the "intelligence"? I don't recall him saying that. But, also consider this. Leviathan comes before the ending. I know that IT adherents often have different ideas as to where indoctrination takes place so several things could occur here.

If indoctrination occurred before ME3 (and believe me, it does make some sense), the kid in the vent makes more sense-he really does not make sense now. Shepard in detention and all that crap at the beginning makes more sense, since it really doesn't make sense now. And so on-crucible is a childlike, dream device. Does it make sense right now? Not to me. It's a weapon, no it isn't. Well, by all means let's just make this thing that could annihilate the galaxy since we don't know what it does.

Ok, then Leviathan-main point. If IT-it could all be a ploy to explain away the reapers and since it's main reason for being in the game is to provide reasons as to why the kid/reapers are doing what they are doing, it totally fits with IT. What is indoctrination used for? Well, obviously it's used to get the person to do what the reapers want them to do. How does the appearance of the Leviathan change all that? Many people see it as reinforcing that. Many people see Leviathan as helping make a case for synthesis. Well, what does it seem the kid wants? Synthesis.

So, if the reapers want synthesis and indoctrinated Shepard, what would they work to get Shepard to do?

And why didn't they use TIM? He was there already. Wouldn't it have been really funny if TIM was not indoctrinated at all, but that Shepard was?

I'm going along here with the assertion that the kid wants one of the choices made, first off. Any one of them will work, but they aren't all his "perfect" choice. If synthesis is, then nothing in Leviathan nor the EC smashes the idea of IT. He could have indoctrinated all of them-TIM, Anderson, and Shepard.

Consider this too. TIM cannot control the reapers, because the kid says they control him already. I hate control, but this does imply that indoctrination is being used to keep TIM from controlling the reapers. It's not the preferred choice. Both TIM and Anderson were on the citadel first. Anderson is apparently also under their control perhaps and he wants to destroy them-so, Shepard is forced to shoot him. The only chance they have for synthesis is Shepard.

Again, I don't totally love IT, but it's not garbage at all and nothing in the game post-EC and post-Leviathan smashes the theory at all. In fact, I think it all does the exact opposite. Make a choice and just look at how sweet the slides are-that doesn't seem realistic to me.

[saber00005]

That's interesting you say that the IT is dead. I thought after playing the new pack, it made it stronger.

[fchopin]

Red Dust wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Red Dust wrote...

OR...Or. Shepard never left the Leviathans, they kept him on their planet as a thrall and everything else from that point is a hallucination.

I'm calling it Leviathan Theory, and I'll need to have some banners made. Preferably with a hypnotic cuttlefish GIF.

 The only problem with the theory is that the Leviathan is a DLC and not all people will play it in their game.

Simply because the Leviathan removed the memory of their encounter for their Shepard's mind. That's how we roll in Leviathan theory. That's how we roll.

So they paid for it but Leviathans removed the memory so that means they could sue Bioware for not getting their money’s worth don’t you think?

[LeandroBraz]

No need for it. ME3 kills Indoctrination Theory..

[epicalus]

okay hi everyone .
i played the leviathan dlc right afther i watched the whole indoctrination documentary .
i was curious about the dlc and i'm glad i was .
as an answer to the title.
No it doesn't .
but it also doesn't support it either .
basically the lev dlc walks that same fine line between yes and no to indoc theory.
but there are signs to look for .

the only thing i could find in the lev dlc is that it gives the starchild validity .
simply said : yes there is a synthetic entity behind the reapers.
then there is the synthesis thing
and thats about all it does to put IT into question.

but look at it closer .
from the very first cutscene you witness ... indoctrination .
play the first mission and you find indoctrination .
the rest of the dlc expands upon organic indoctrination (leviathans race's indoctrination)
example would be the artifacts .
leviathan also explains that the reapers perfected indoctrination . keep that in mind as it comes back later.
lets also look at the whole detective way of how the dlc goes.
find clue here for this and clue there for that.
could that be a hint from bioware , telling us to use our detective side to find the truth ?

as i go on i'll be talking more about the meeting with leviathan.

the first thing it does is try to indoctrinate sheppard.
example is the dark room with the ground that looks like water.
you'll also notice that sheppard starts to bleed from her nose .
later from her ears and eyes .
but for a split second you also see sheppard in the atlas with blood on his/her face that is an exact match to the way his/her face looks afther hit by the beam.
lazy reused texture or whatever ? possibly . or maybe its a clue
why was sheppard bleeding at all at that point ?
from movies as examples i can only say that its becausse something is changing fisically to his/her brain/nervoussystem.
isn't that part of indoctrination ?
or is it becausse of the immens pressure from being under water? maybe but i noticed that the interior pressure of the atlas was fine the whole time .

now lets look at the dark room itself ?
what is it and where is it ?
since sheppard is there at the same time as sheppard is in the atlas .
then i can only assume that its in sheppard's mind.
wich is a clear sign of indoctrination .
have i proven this ? no it is what i believe .
so if leviathan can create a room in sheppard's mind and put sheppard in there with indoctrination.
and this is where i come back to the 'reapers have perfected indoctrination'
would it not be plausable that the reapers can infact recreate a bigger area , with more details ?
if so , would it be so far fetched to say that reapers can actually create an alternate reality within the mind of the person they are trying to indoctrinate ?

and yes i know that its weak , but lets do it anyway .
lets say the reapers can read and implements pieces of a person's memory into that indoctrination attempt , to use truth's and add in a few lies , just to hide the indoctrination attempt ?
not to mention the reapers are right there when sheppard meets leviathan , well at least on the planet .
so the reapers know that sheppard made contact or would at least assume that sheppard made contact .
so it woulden't be far fetched to say that the reapers know that sheppard knows about there creation .

the whole synthesis part i'm not gonna touch , becausse in my case it speaks for itself .

This is how i see the dlc .
did i prove anything ? i doubt i proved anything whatsoever .
but i did point out some interesting things.
analyse them for yourself .
or dismiss it outright.
i spoke my opinion and thats all that matters to me .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Leviathan doesn't kill IT. IT is still alive. In the same sense that "Man didn't land on the moon Theory" is still alive.

However, Leviathan forces a complete restructuring of IT and it's core points. Pre-Leviathan IT and Post-Leviathan IT are two completely different things.

And that's the biggest blow to IT. All this time, ITists were insisting that IT is the only logical explanation yet now there is completely new form of IT. Weak.