153 réponses à ce sujet

[Biotic_Warlock]

OP... don't ever question the indoctrination theory.

Those who back it up are indoctrinated and will troll your thread... as they already have.

There is no indoctrination theory anyway... it's all nonsense.

[TheWill]

im an IT supporter but i never thought to myself that the catalyst/intelligence.. wasnt real... only highly suspicious.. and the simjple fact that its a theory means that untill it is undeniably proven one way or another it can never be anything more than that.. a theory.. and it will continue to live forever.. its beautiful in a way.. its the only living thing in the mass effect universe that will never be harvested ever

[3DandBeyond]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

OP... don't ever question the indoctrination theory.

Those who back it up are indoctrinated and will troll your thread... as they already have.

There is no indoctrination theory anyway... it's all nonsense.

I'm no IT adherent, but they have just as much right to their head canon as some of the real irrational stuff I've seen in these forums.  They also have way more basis.  Let's just examine some things that get said about some choices-Shreaper (reaper control god) remains in contact with friends, has an ongoing after death relationship with Liara and can send people emails to say, "Shepard's alive and well as reaper commander"-content of the email is my interpretation of what's been said.  Synthesis allows you to choose your evolution.  Each individual can decide how much influence it will have in their life.  So really is IT that crazy?

What does IT say?  At some point Shepard is indoctrinated, even to the point where some things that are not real are seen as real (based on what IT is described) or it is just used as deception.  It could happen before ME3 starts.  This does not mean real things don't exist in Shepard's world, but it means that Shepard's understanding of it all could be skewed or it could even be a total hallucination.  Nothing in the game disputes that possibility.  EC didn't change that.  Nor does Leviathan.  Even the presence of the kid does nothing to dispute IT at all.  In fact one of the most compelling things about IT is everything that happens on the citadel and Shepard's reaction or non-reaction to it.

IT isn't my preferred way to go, but it's ridiculous to suggest there is no basis for it or that Leviathan in any way destroys it as a possibility.  No, the game does not show that it is true at the end. 

But, wouldn't it be funny if when all DLC has been released if the very last thing (change in the kid's dialogue in even some minor way) indicates that synthesis is the indoctrinated choice, control is the misguided choice, and destroy is deceptive so Shepard won't choose it, but is a real choice, whereas refuse is the unindoctrinated or indoctrination rejection choice that wakes Shepard up?  I think it would be really funny.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 13 septembre 2012 - 04:17 .

[RaenImrahl]

3DandBeyond wrote...

And this post helps how, exactly?  Feel superior now?

Let's not pick fights, @3D.

[Dendio1]

IT theory was killed by Bioware months ago:

You may notice that in the “Shepard lives” ending, the love interest hesitates to place Shepard’s name on the wall, and instead looks up as though deep in thought. This is meant to suggest that the love interest is not ready to believe Shepard is dead, and the final scene reveals they are correct. As the Normandy lifts off, there is hope that the love interest and Shepard will again be together.

http://social.biowar.../index/12758618

Modifié par Dendio1, 13 septembre 2012 - 03:53 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

^ How does that kill IT?

[DeathScepter]

SentinelShepParagon wrote...

 So, I don't know if there is already a thread about this, but I just realized that the Leviathan DLC pretty much kills IT.

In this DLC, the Catalyst is portrayed as a real thing that the Leviathans made, and its motives are presented as its actual motives in reality. It is not some made up hoax that is a last ditch effort to indoctrinate Shepard. It is an actually thing made by actual beings with actual motives that it was programmed to carry out by its actual creators. This seems to pretty overwhelmingly imply that the encounter with the Catalyst at the end of the game is, in fact, real. He exists, just like the Leviathan said he does, and his motives are the same as the Leviathan says they are. 

The only way to get around this would be to suggest that the whole Leviathan encounter was a dream, but come on. That would be such a HUGE stretch that it is almost laughable. Maybe you could say that the Reapers just used what the Leviathan said in their indoctrination attempt of Shepard, but that seems to be unlikely since this DLC works so hard to give background to the Catalyst character. I doubt this would be the case if the end was just a dream sequence. It would really be a waste of time. I guess you could also say that it was the Leviathans seeking to Indoctrinate Shepard all along, and this is where it starts, but again, another big stretch.

If IT wasn't dead already, there is little hope of it being alive now.

Leviathan DLC proves Indoctrination Theory

[Dendio1]

pirate1802 wrote...

^ How does that kill IT?

IT is based around assumption that the destroy ending revealed shepard waking up from a dream state.
IT reasons that despite Indoctrination having a 100 percent success rate throughout the series, shepard could beat it by telling star kid off, choosing destroy.

The bioware post clarifies that the intended purpose of the breath scene was actually to confirm shepard survived the detonation of the crucible.

[3DandBeyond]

RaenImrahl wrote...

Let's not pick fights, @3D.

Sorry, will edit.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 13 septembre 2012 - 04:18 .

[dreman9999]

Dendio1 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

^ How does that kill IT?

IT is based around assumption that the destroy ending revealed shepard waking up from a dream state.
IT reasons that despite Indoctrination having a 100 percent success rate throughout the series, shepard could beat it by telling star kid off, choosing destroy.

The bioware post clarifies that the intended purpose of the breath scene was actually to confirm shepard survived the detonation of the crucible.

The theory is based on three prospects of the ending. It being a dream, halluciation, or an awarken state reaper influnce.
IT basicly is a theory of Shepards mind being messed with by the reapers.

[SentinelShepParagon]

I hear all of your points and I see them as valid. I am simply sharing my opinion here as well. The way I see it, Leviathan confirms that the Catalyst is real. Also, since BioWare went to such lengths to further support the Catalyst's motives, I think it is safe to say that the encounter with the Catalyst did actually happen. So, IMHO, the idea that the ending was a hallucination and that Shepard is still in London after being knocked out by Harby's beam is dead.

The waking nightmare deal is still a possibility, but that is really irrelevant as far as I am concerned because the ending still happens. The "old IT" claims that it didn't happen at all, that is what I was disputing.

Modifié par SentinelShepParagon, 13 septembre 2012 - 04:29 .

[DeathScepter]

OLD IT is valid. Catalyst was never in doubt. Being on the Citadel and having Anderson and T.I.M. there is odd to say at least.

[Ithurael]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

^ How does that kill IT?

IT is based around assumption that the destroy ending revealed shepard waking up from a dream state.
IT reasons that despite Indoctrination having a 100 percent success rate throughout the series, shepard could beat it by telling star kid off, choosing destroy.

The bioware post clarifies that the intended purpose of the breath scene was actually to confirm shepard survived the detonation of the crucible.

The theory is based on three prospects of the ending. It being a dream, halluciation, or an awarken state reaper influnce.
IT basicly is a theory of Shepards mind being messed with by the reapers.

You and I both know that the IT the OP was referring to was the IT Dream theory.

IT Con is plausible, but srsly IT Dream would probably still hold a majority vote amongst the supporters. Although, an exact number/poll would be interesting.

Refresh my memory if you can/want isn't the IT Hallucination == IT Dream?

Any IT that end with RGB decisions (meaning those choices really happend) is not only valid but plausible in the lore. However, any IT that has more content after shep wakes up is not the interpretation of bioware. It may be valid, but is not plausible.

[DeathScepter]

Ithurael wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

^ How does that kill IT?

IT is based around assumption that the destroy ending revealed shepard waking up from a dream state.
IT reasons that despite Indoctrination having a 100 percent success rate throughout the series, shepard could beat it by telling star kid off, choosing destroy.

The bioware post clarifies that the intended purpose of the breath scene was actually to confirm shepard survived the detonation of the crucible.

The theory is based on three prospects of the ending. It being a dream, halluciation, or an awarken state reaper influnce.
IT basicly is a theory of Shepards mind being messed with by the reapers.

You and I both know that the IT the OP was referring to was the IT Dream theory.

IT Con is plausible, but srsly IT Dream would probably still hold a majority vote amongst the supporters. Although, an exact number/poll would be interesting.

Refresh my memory if you can/want isn't the IT Hallucination == IT Dream?

Any IT that end with RGB decisions (meaning those choices really happend) is not only valid but plausible in the lore. However, any IT that has more content after shep wakes up is not the interpretation of bioware. It may be valid, but is not plausible.

it is plausible. 

[SentinelShepParagon]

Ithurael wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

^ How does that kill IT?

IT is based around assumption that the destroy ending revealed shepard waking up from a dream state.
IT reasons that despite Indoctrination having a 100 percent success rate throughout the series, shepard could beat it by telling star kid off, choosing destroy.

The bioware post clarifies that the intended purpose of the breath scene was actually to confirm shepard survived the detonation of the crucible.

The theory is based on three prospects of the ending. It being a dream, halluciation, or an awarken state reaper influnce.
IT basicly is a theory of Shepards mind being messed with by the reapers.

You and I both know that the IT the OP was referring to was the IT Dream theory.

IT Con is plausible, but srsly IT Dream would probably still hold a majority vote amongst the supporters. Although, an exact number/poll would be interesting.

Refresh my memory if you can/want isn't the IT Hallucination == IT Dream?

Any IT that end with RGB decisions (meaning those choices really happend) is not only valid but plausible in the lore. However, any IT that has more content after shep wakes up is not the interpretation of bioware. It may be valid, but is not plausible.

You hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what I was getting at.

[SentinelShepParagon]

magnetite wrote...

Leviathan basically proves that the Reapers made you shoot Anderson. Or that they took control of you for a second and shot him. Game files will confirm it.

Bioware did say that there was going to be a scene that you would lose control of Shepard for a second. The scene with Anderson where Shepard shoots him certainly fits.

TIM made you shoot Anderson with his new indoctrination powers. He flat out says this. Sure, the Reapers are controlling TIM, so I guess you could say they indirectly made Shep do it through a third party. But I would blame TIM. However, what does this have to do with whether or not Dream IT is real and how does it relate to Leviathan? I don't see the connection.

[Bill Casey]

Problem?

[Ithurael]

DeathScepter wrote...

it is plausible. 

IT Con/Waking nightmare = yes

IT Dream = no

If you want IT dream to be true you will only get 'Shep wakes up...and then....[black]"

You will have to headcanon everything after the "and then"

I will say that everyone's interpretation is valid, but only some are actually plausible.

[tyrvas]

What about Shep's new power, DOMINATE.

What about the Domination Theory.

[Bill Casey]

Literal theory is implausible...

[DeathScepter]

Ithurael wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

it is plausible. 

IT Con/Waking nightmare = yes

IT Dream = no

If you want IT dream to be true you will only get 'Shep wakes up...and then....[black]"

You will have to headcanon everything after the "and then"

I will say that everyone's interpretation is valid, but only some are actually plausible.

Well IT DREAM is more plausible than the IT CON/Waking Nightmare.

[Ithurael]

Bill Casey wrote...

Literal theory is implausible...

The literal theory works well with the bad writing theory

Don't forget the speculation theory!

Or the Elephant Theory with parts of the Fish Theory

:wizard::wizard:

[Soultaker08]

Bill Casey wrote...



Problem?

show me another way of standing up that fits better to the situation of being knocked off and feeling like "fu*k i can barely stand up"

then i will count this in.

[Ithurael]

DeathScepter wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

it is plausible. 

IT Con/Waking nightmare = yes

IT Dream = no

If you want IT dream to be true you will only get 'Shep wakes up...and then....[black]"

You will have to headcanon everything after the "and then"

I will say that everyone's interpretation is valid, but only some are actually plausible.

Well IT DREAM is more plausible than the IT CON/Waking Nightmare.

How?

Bioware has stated several times there is no more post ending dlc coming

They have stated that ME3 is the end of sheps jouney and story. No shepard in ME4

Merizan even stated that if your version of IT needs more content post breath scene - that is not the interpretation of bioware nor will it be delivered upon as they are done with the endings.

So...shep wake up and then....?

No more post ending DLC
No ME4 with shepard

inb4biowarelies