153 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

Also I'd like to add that the Reapers want to study Shepard and find out what makes him so unique amongst his species.

Multiple times throughout ME2, Harbinger orders the Collectors to bring Shepard alive or at least intact so they can examine him. Even during Arrival, Shepard was sedated for two days by indoctrinated Reaper slaves, but his mind was left intact, otherwise he wouldn't have blown up the Alpha Relay. He would have let the Reapers go through.

Rewriting his min and Indoctrinating him would cause them to lose out on finding out what makes him tick.

There's also given cases of people who SHOULD be indoctrinated, but aren't. Such as Randall Ezno, a Cerberus operative who was given Reaper tech implants meant to indoctrinate him, but never did. He ended up defecting against Cerberus and going things that are beneficial to Shepard's cause.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:16 .

[Bill Casey]

You do realize that in the ending to mass effect 3, you can let the reapers continue the harvest or outright side with the reapers or with their thrall...

There are people not only doing these things, they are arguing in favor of them...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:21 .

[AllegedVixEo]

Bill Casey wrote...

Are you people ****ting me?
Did you play Leviathan?

Is there some sort of alternate Leviathan DLC that doesn't end with Shepard blacking out and the Leviathan invading his mind with full bodied apparitions constructed from his memories?

I think the difference is that just because Leviathan "gets in Shelard's head" doesn't mean Shepard is indoctrinated.  No one's arguing that Shepard's apparitions while talking to Leviathan are in Shepard's head (I don't think anyone is arguing that at least, it's pretty straight forward in the DLC).  There are different levels to which creatures in the ME universe with the ability to enter your psyche will manipulate your thoughts.  Liara can get in Shepard's head, but doesn't indoctrinate her.  The prothean beacon affects thoughts in Shepard's mind but (presumably) doesn't indoctrinate her.  We know the Leviathan species has the ability to control minds, but they obvious also communicate through entering one's mind. Just because they choose to communicate with Shepard doesn't mean they are also going to indoctrinate her.  They release Shepard because they want her to defeat the Reapers.  An in-brain experience with Leciathan doesn't = indoctrination unless they choose to control Shepard.  But they don't.

[Legion of 1337]

The Twilight God wrote...
The game itself dictates that Synthesis is not what the Reapers really want.

Oh, but see, that isn't true.

Until the Crucible docked, the Catalyst didn't know it could be used to enact Synthesis ("The Crucible changed me, created new...possibilities."). Up until then, all he could assume was that it was a weapon to destroy the Reapers. Once the Catalyst realizes what the Crucible can do, he realizes that Synthesis is now possible and he can fullfil his goal, because according to his own predictions Synthesis will solve all the problems.

[AllegedVixEo]

Bill Casey wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

BUT he doesn't exhibit any signs of indoctrination.

Except for headaches, buzzing and ringing, paranoia, and recurring nightmares...

Coincidentally, most of those are also signs of extreme
stress... Say caused by the threat of being exterminated by hundreds of giant, practically invincible monsters.

[Bill Casey]

And they are signs of indoctrination...
So when Legion1337 said he exhibited no such signs, he was lying...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:34 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Bill Casey wrote...

You do realize that in the ending to mass effect 3, you can let the reapers continue the harvest or outright side with the reapers or with their thrall...

There are people not only doing these things, they are arguing in favor of them...

So I guess you're now saying that the Reapers are indoctrinating the game's players in real life? if so, you've crossed from conspiracy theorist into plain insane.

Refuse isn't "letting" the Reapers do anything. At least not from Shepard's perspective. He believes that they can win without the Crucible. But he's wrong.

Control isn't "siding" with the Reapers. Shepard, for the entire length of the game, believed the Illusive Man was crazy to believe the Reapers could be controlled. And in the end you find out "What do you know, The Illusive Man was right(if you notice, all of his hunches and theories are proven true throughout the series)" and the Catalyst honestly tells you that even though he was right, he was already indoctrinated by them.

Synthesis isn't "siding" with the Reapers either. Leviathan explained that the Catalyst is dictated by his programming and will do the cycle until an ideal solution presents itself. Synthesis is that better idea. Before the crucibe got slapped on his ass, he didn't believe it was possible any more than the skeptics on the forums do.

Also more evidence against IT is the varying reactions from the Catalyst itself.

If you have a low EMS, I mean really low. Starboy is very agitated by your presence and success, and doesn't want to help you at all. "The Crucible changed me. Created new. . . possibilities. But I cant make them happen, and I wont!" And Shepard destroys or controls on his own(depending on what you did with the Collector base)

If you have a moderate to high EMS. He's more welcoming and cooperative. As if he's impressed that organics have shown a level of cooperation and strength that he's never seen throughout thousands of cycles.

[WhiteKnyght]

Bill Casey wrote...

And they are signs of indoctrination...
So when Legion1337 said he exhibited no such signs, he was lying...

Saying that someone is lying when your only "proof" is subjective is childish as hell and diminishes your stance.

Also indoctrination may have those symptoms, but in such cases, they are constant, and accompanied by several other debilitating and more noticable signs.

For Shepard, the nightmares only happen after he experiences something tragic, or when his friends die like Mordin, Eve, or Legion, or Tali. Meaning they are induced by guilt. Not mental conditioning caused by prologued exposure to Reaper electomagnetic fields and ultrasonic noise.

They rarely show him with headaches, and if I could see a cause for those, it'd be all the times throughout the game when he falls, gets blown back by explosions, or gets thrown around and hits his head. By the way, all of those things cause buzzing noises and ringing in the ears. Any head tauma can(my Dad cracked his skull working last year, he's been hearing constant ringing ever since.)

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:45 .

[The Twilight God]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Mass Relays can be repaired.

Based on what evidence? Is Hackett a wizard who can magically conjure up realy repair plans? Nobody has even been able to study them due to the quantum shielding. Sure, eventually they will figure it out now that they overloaded and are inert. But it's not going to happen in a day.

The ME3 codex states, "Mass relays were in fact created by the Reapers using technology far beyond that of other living species." Furthermore, mass relays couldn't be taken apart practically because they are "protected by a quantum shield that renders them nearly impervious to damage by locking their structure in place at the subatomic level." 

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Destroy has Hackett saying the Relays are only severely damaged, not destroyed. And he also goes on to saying that they will rebuild. If the Galaxy's best can build something as large as the Crucible in a short amount of time by working together, they can repair a damaged Mass Relay.

The Crucible had instructions laid out so that anyone could understand it. Everything about relays is theorhetical. They've never even so such as seen the inside of one. But it doesn't matter. Even if they did know how to build them their is still be the obstacle of getting to them.

The Twilight God wrote...

...it doesn't matter how long it takes to figure out mass relay technology. Even if they did know how to fix them there is still the issue of long term self-sufficient FTL flotillas. That will require the construction of liveships, training and the transport of large quantities of materials for repairs (relays are huge). This involves gathering raw materials, capable manpower, establishing surface-to-orbit supply chain, constructing orbital infrastructure (i.e. shipyards), building mobile fuel refinery ships, mobile material processing ships, mobile helium-3 extractor ships and liveships. Basically, coordinating everything necessary for long term self-sustained space travel. And even then they can't travel in a straight line as they will have to zig-zag stopping in systems with planets suitable for drive core discharge and hydrogen skimming.

There is alot of risk in this because they will be traveling through uncharted territory. Times may come where they have to send smaller scout ships ahead because they can't risk taking larger ships to a new system that has no suitable worlds for a larger vessels to discharge. It will be a slow arduous journey. Even at 12 LY per day it will take 22-27 years to cross the galaxy if traversed in a straight line with no stops. Zig-zagging, fuel collection and processing and then the relay repairs themselves. It's gonna take awhile. The codex says centuries. Reaper cores might cut that time in half. Hopefully quarian plants can grow on earth soil or the Turians are going to be fighting the Quarians for food rations. They'll be at Earth for awhile.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Patrick Weekes also said they don't even really need the Mass Relays. 16 lightyears per day is cruising speed, not top speed. Plus they can reverse engineer the Reaper tech to make upgrades(Reapers go more than twice as fast as the normal FTL ship) I'll take the word of an ME writer over a crazy conspiracy theorist any day.

Oh, Weekes and his twitter retconning attempts to fix the mess that was made. Sadly, this wasn't included in the game and has no basis in the lore. So I'm afraid it's just weekes's personal headcanon. I'll stick to in-game facts vs. after the fact bandaids. The codex says FTL trips can take decades or centuries (with the zig-zagging and core discharging mentioned above). The codex states that Reapers travel at approximately 30LY per day. Furthermore it is stated that that is twice our capability. That puts FTL speeds at 15LY per day. And not just cruising speed. In ME1 Ashley says 12 LY is not close enough to get anywhere in an emergency but close enough for regular communications. She goes on to say you'd need a fast packet flight to travel that distance fast so around 15LY per day is the faster speed, not cruising speed. It would take 27 years to cross the galaxy at that speed non-stop in a straight line. Reaper cores could cut that in half, but it's till going to be some long trips.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Control specifically shows the Reapers repairing the mass relays. They can work faster and more efficiently than any combined effort by the Galaxy's races.

And then after they repair the relays, then what? They have to repair the relays at some point. And doing it prior to the end of the conflicts allows them more manpower to fix them. Vs fixing them after taking loses in the battles raging across the galaxy. We lose in Control so it hardly matters if the reapirs fix the relays. We get harvested.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Synthesis frees the Reapers from the Catalyst's control, who help to rebuild the galaxy. Which would include the Mass Relays.

The Reapers are born synthesized (recall EDI's analysis at the Collector Base?). So it stands to reason that Synthesis has no effect on them. It synthesizes their "armor" which is as relevent as Garrus's armor and jokers hat being synthesized. Everyone is indoctrinated in synthesis ending and the harvest will probably occur peacefully. It doesn't matter if the Reapers fix the relays. Even if the reapers were affected then Leviathans can probably dominate everything so I guess that's a silver lining. We can be slaves instead of reapers.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Also saying we have no proof when all your so called "evidence" is subjective, circumstantial, and taken out of context.

So taking it literally at face value (i.e. it's just pictures popping up on screen) is subjective? That's the very definition of objective. You are the one applying addtional subjective meaning to them. And since you are making such bold assertions, the burden of proof is on you.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The biggest fact, if the indoctrination theory were real, there would have been no reason to make the extended cut at all. It would also make Bioware/EA guilty of false advertising again. And being deliberately self destructive is bad for business. So I don't think they would purposely do it twice.

That doesn't even make sense.

The Extended Cut was released because of the fan outrage. It's goal was to pacify fans.

[Bill Casey]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

So I guess you're now saying that the Reapers are indoctrinating the game's players in real life? if so, you've crossed from conspiracy theorist into plain insane.

It is so brilliant...
Bioware has us fighting eachother instead of fighting the reapers...
It's the most genius ending I have seen to anything. ever...
So brilliant...

Refuse isn't "letting" the Reapers do anything. At least not from Shepard's perspective. He believes that they can win without the Crucible. But he's wrong.

And before the Catalyst, Shepard wanted to use that crucible to destroy them...

Control isn't "siding" with the Reapers. Shepard, for the entire length of the game, believed the Illusive Man was crazy to believe the Reapers could be controlled. And in the end you find out "What do you know, The Illusive Man was right(if you notice, all of his hunches and theories are proven true throughout the series)" and the Catalyst honestly tells you that even though he was right, he was already indoctrinated by them.

And Shepard suddenly believes the Illusive Man is right because...

Synthesis isn't "siding" with the Reapers either. Leviathan explained that the Catalyst is dictated by his programming and will do the cycle until an ideal solution presents itself. Synthesis is that better idea. Before the crucibe got slapped on his ass, he didn't believe it was possible any more than the skeptics on the forums do.

Yes. Perfecting everyone. Combining organic and synthetic life into a final evolution. Connecting everyone together. That's totally not a prettier version of what the reapers have been doing...

Also more evidence against IT is the varying reactions from the Catalyst itself.

If you have a low EMS, I mean really low. Starboy is very agitated by your presence and success, and doesn't want to help you at all. "The Crucible changed me. Created new. . . possibilities. But I cant make them happen, and I wont!" And Shepard destroys or controls on his own(depending on what you did with the Collector base)

If you have a moderate to high EMS. He's more welcoming and cooperative. As if he's impressed that organics have shown a level of cooperation and strength that he's never seen throughout thousands of cycles.

And that's the first legitimate point you've brought...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:59 .

[The Twilight God]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

BUT he doesn't exhibit any signs of indoctrination. You must stay in proximity to a Reaper for an extended period to be indoctrinated - most of the Reapers Shepard comes across end up dead. There is insufficient exposure time . There is no reason to suspect he is indoctrinated, and therefore no reason not to take the endings at face value. Other than you don't want to. I mean, that's fine if you don't, but that doesn't make your theory true.

He does. To even trust the Kid IS a sign of indoctrination. Bioware indoctrinated you, the player, so it only makes sense that you don't see the problem. You were duped. It cannot be explained in any other way. By chosing synthesis or control you, the player, have dictated that Shepard is indoctrinated. You went in to kill them and they indoctrinated you into their way of thinking. By choosing synthesis you valid their way of thinking by legitimizing the necessity of sysnthesis to prevent some supposed inevitable war. In control they convince you that control is possible just like they did every other indoctrinated group in every cycle prior. It's all laid out in the game. You want to hold on to your sunshine and butterlfies endings so bad that you refuse to see the plain truth.

Give me one good reason for Shepard to trust the Reapers. And the Kid is the Reapers. He says "we" in relation to them. He claims to be the Osama bin Laden of the Reaper Al-qaeda. So go ahead, give me one good reason for Shepard to trust the Reapers.

"Reaper indoctrination is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, reprogramming the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's suggestions can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations "

Modifié par The Twilight God, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:37 .

[WhiteKnyght]

The Twilight God wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Mass Relays can be repaired.

Based on what evidence? Is Hackett a wizard who can magically conjure up realy repair plans? Nobody has even been able to study them due to the quantum shielding. Sure, eventually they will figure it out now that they overloaded and are inert. But it's not going to happen in a day.

The ME3 codex states, "Mass relays were in fact created by the Reapers using technology far beyond that of other living species." Furthermore, mass relays couldn't be taken apart practically because they are "protected by a quantum shield that renders them nearly impervious to damage by locking their structure in place at the subatomic level." 

The Extended Cut was released because of the fan outrage. It's goal was to pacify fans.

Evidence? The scene showing the relays being rebuilt is a pretty good indication.

The protheans were also able to construct the Conduit(a small Mass Relay) on Illos and the Citadel with the same technology the whole galaxy reverse engineered for their own advancement. That's called "proof of concept." Meaning it can be done.

Mass Effect Revelation also revealed that the Prothean archives on Mars contained a lot of information the mass relays, which was how humans were able to reactivate and use them even when they were practically new to mass effect technology.

Also you just proved my point. Most people who hated the ending wanted a whole new ending. Not many were pacified by Extended Cut. If Indoctrination Theory were real, it'd be the perfect set up for a new ending that would pacify everyone. But they didn't. Instead they spent months on what many so eloquently refer to as "turd polishing" which knocked out quite a few of IT's supports.

Just face it, Indoctrination Theory is your own delusion because you hate Mass Effect's current conclusion and don't want to accept it. As long as you believe in IT, you have hope that something better will be added.

It's denial, nothing more, nothing less.

[Bill Casey]

There's nothing better to be added...
The ending is perfect...

[WhiteKnyght]

Bill Casey wrote...

And that's the first legitimate point you've brought...

No it isn't. It's just the first you cant deny. Since the Catalyst's behavior is arguably a key point.

If Shepard were being indoctrinated, the Catalyst's beavior would be the same every time for the whole deception point.

Also the varying degress of the ending choices is more proof. Depending on EMS, Destroy and Control can range from complete Galactic chaos to minimal damage. If it were in Shepard's mind, you wouldn't get the worse outcomes, it'd always work well.

Synthesis isn't even mentioned unless you have at least 2500 EMS. Anything lower and Starboy doesn't even bring it up(because the Crucible is too damaged for it to be possible.)  If Shep were being indoctrinated, it'd always be available because its the Catalyst's ideal choice.

[The Twilight God]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Except you forget one big thing. Throughout Mass Effect 2, the Reapers are obsessed with getting Shepard for study. Harbinger wanted his body and mind intact because he was an interesting specimen.

Which is the more rational desire on the part of the Reapers?

Shepard's intact mind blowing them to hell?

or

Shepard's indoctrinated mind doing their bidding?

Harbinger let Shepard live. They wanted him on their side.

The beam he fires at Shepard's path is to the left of Shepard (changed in the EC) as not to strike him. Yet he knocks moving aircraft out of the sky with pinpoint accuracy. There are two soldiers running ahead of Shepard who Harbinger blasts away in two pinpoint shots. If Reapers have eyes and it saw the Normandy despite the stealth drive it stands to reason it did not blow it up for fear of Shepard being killed by the explosion. And you think it allowed Shepard to live and carry on without any ulterior motive?

It is obvious that Harbinger wanted Shepard to make it into the Citadel. Harbinger knew TIM was there waiting to use dominate on Shepard. TIM was expected to hold Shepard while they facilitated his indoctrination. TIM failed. And Shepard reached the chamber without being fully indoctrinated. The Reapers' arrogance bites them in the ass again... unless of course they manage to finish the indoctrination of Shepard in the chamber.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The scenes in Leviathan also show that shields can block the indoctrination wave/signal. Hence why Shepard hoped that the piece of Sovereign was shielded and used the shields to sever Leviathan's connection to Ann Bryson. Shepard's armor comes equipped with shields and if you noticed, all the people who become indoctrinated don't. Like Dr Kenson, the Chandana's crew aboard the Derelict Reaper, the Illusive Man, Shiala, and so forth.

Leviathans don't indoctrinate (as far as I recall). They straight up take over. The person being controlled has no memory of what transpired under Leviathan control. And their though patterns aren't altered like Reaper indoctrination. It's possible Harbinger can control since he is a Leviathan reaper. 

You can block the process of Leviathan control, but not Reaper indoctrination. There is a difference.

Note: The DLC contradicts itself. It says the orbs alter the atoms in the brain to establish a QE link. So technically you shouldn't be able to shield it, just shield the link form being established in the first place. The Leviathans already controlled Ann, as seen at the dig sight, so the link was already established. Therefore the shield shouldn't have worked as QE isn't a radio wave. Same thing with the miners on the asteroid. Well, I guess that means Ann was wrong about that?... *shrugs*

Regardless, once a person is indoctrinated by a Reaper there is no way to "cut the link" (unless you have a thorian ) as reaper indoctrination actually changes the persons though patterns to align with the Reapers' goal.

[Bill Casey]

It's conditioning...

Unlockable = good

Just like how they made Control blue...

[The Twilight God]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

BUT he doesn't exhibit any signs of indoctrination.

Except for headaches, buzzing and ringing, paranoia, and recurring nightmares...

It's PTSD.

None of those ever try to change his convictions, make him sympathize with the Reapers, betray his friends, or anything of the sort. 

Control requires you to change your convictions as Shepard was against control 5 minutes earlier.
Synthesis requires you sympathize withthe reapers. It is a validation of their logic.
Refuse requires Shepard to betray the entire galaxy.

[The Twilight God]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Legion of 1337's right. If you read Mass Effect Retribution, you'd know that your opinions changing and being sympathetic towards the Reapers are early signs.

If Shepard were being indoctrinated, he wouldn't be doubting whether or not he can win and save the galaxy, he'd be doubting whether or not he was right to oppose the Reapers at all.(Indoctrinated people generally believe that the Reapers have the right idea about things.)

Like Synthesis? Because it validates the Reaper's actions. To pick synthesis is to say they are right and that synthetics and organics need it to coexist.

Control requires Shepard to think the Reapers have the right idea about policing the galaxy. that they are a necessity.

TIM was indoctrinated and the whle time he still thought the Reapers were the enemy. And yet he still did their dirty work. Just like the player when they pick synthesis, control or refuse. Each one facilitates a Reaper objective.

[The Twilight God]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...
The game itself dictates that Synthesis is not what the Reapers really want.

Oh, but see, that isn't true

Nope. Sorry. You're not getting off that easy. Explain to me exactly where my logic is flawed. It's listed in numerical order for your convenience. Either debunk it or you admit de facto agreement. In a debate you can't just ignore arguments and carry on like you never saw them.

The Twilight God wrote...

1. The Crucible docks, but is not arming.
2. Shepard leaps into the beam and an energetic aura engulfs his surroundings.
3. The Crucible arms itself and fires.
4. It is thus deduced that Shepard's presence within the contraption's energy cocktail was in accordance with the overall contraption's intended purpose.
5. It can thus be further deduced that the beveled synthesis array, and by association the entire contraption, were constructed with the intent of interacting with the Crucible.
6. It has been confirmed in the very opener of the segment that the contraptions at eye level are NOT a part of the Crucible.
7. The contraptions are built into and plugged into the Citadel.
8. If the contraptions were built by the Citadel's organic inhabitants, per the Crucible's schematics, it would be known that the Citadel was a component beforehand. That is not the case.
9. The Citadel is of Reaper construction.
10. Conclusion: the Reapers built the Contraption.
11. If the Reapers built a contraption that interfaces with the Crucible, the Reaper must have some technical details on the Crucible in order to have the understanding of how it works in order to build a device tailored to interfacing with the Crucible.
12. Given all of the above, the Crucible did not create new possibilities. It merely allowed for premeditated functionalities to be actualized.
13. Given the above fact, it is deduced that they must already be aware of the viability of Synthesis prior to the Crucible docking if, in fact, all the Crucible does is provide power [for this option]. As the only limiting factor prior to the Crucible docking is power. Everything else was already built and ready to go.

The question emerges: If the Reapers are familiar with the Crucible design, have built a premeditated means to harness the Crucible's energy and ultimately desire for Synthesis to occur; why would they resist its docking? If it truly is a superior solution, why struggle to prevent it?

The only reason I can fathom is that it is NOT the ideal solution to the Reapers' hypothetical problem or it does not achieve the goals of whatever true (unexplained) objective they may have. It is simply viewed as preferable to the annihilation of the Reapers altogether.

IT-Con is based on facts and logical deduction. The lore, plot, story, narrative, dialog ingame events, etc. are taken into account. You aren't dealing with the circular logic of Dream Theory so you're going to have to bring your A-game.

Legion of 1337 wrote...

Until the Crucible docked, the Catalyst didn't know it could be used to enact Synthesis ("The Crucible changed me, created new...possibilities."). Up until then, all he could assume was that it was a weapon to destroy the Reapers. Once the Catalyst realizes what the Crucible can do, he realizes that Synthesis is now possible and he can fullfil his goal, because according to his own predictions Synthesis will solve all the problems.

"The Kid says so" isn't a valid argument for determining the validity of it's claims. It's circular logic. Like saying the Bible is true because the Bible says so. All evidence dictates that no new possibilities were presented. The contaption you interact with is pre-built and hardwaired into the Citadel. How can the control prongs and synthesis array be "new possibilities" if they were already there before the Crucible docked?

It lied to you. And that isn't the only lie.

You were duped. Get over it.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:06 .

[daecath]

I would agree except for a strange statement in the middle of the talk with him.
Shepard: Tell me about the Reapers.
Leviathan:
Each harvest ends with the birth of a Reaper.
Perfect in its design. Each formed in Harbinger's image. Our image.
Each Reaper has the power to influence organics. Over countless cycles, this ability was refined, perfected, and gave rise to indoctrination.

And that's it. No discussion of tactical abilities, weaknesses, more details on their past. Just two lines about how they're born, and the line highlighting their ability to indoctrinate people. Why? Perhaps it's a subtle hint? A warning of what's to come? Foreshadowing?

IT FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!

[The Twilight God]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Evidence? The scene showing the relays being rebuilt is a pretty good indication.

There is no such scene in Destroy. The Reapers repair the relays in endings were they win. Those endings aren't relevent to Destroy.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The protheans were also able to construct the Conduit(a small Mass Relay) on Illos and the Citadel with the same technology the whole galaxy reverse engineered for their own advancement. That's called "proof of concept." Meaning it can be done.

Don't strawman me. I never said it couldn't be done.

Last I checked the protheans are a dead species. And the only known remaining member isn't a scientist. Doesn't matter what the protheans discovered. All that matters is our cycle does not know how they work and have never unlocked the secrets. But, yes, it can be done. But it will take time. As I sais before - and you chose to ignore - they can eventually figure it out, but it won't happen overnight. and even once they figure it out (which could take decades) they have to FTL to reach relay to repair it. There is no escaping the fact that the galaxy will be cut off for the foreseable future.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Mass Effect Revelation also revealed that the Prothean archives on Mars contained a lot of information the mass relays, which was how humans were able to reactivate and use them even when they were practically new to mass effect technology.

The Mars archives told of their existence and how to push the start button. That's a big difference from telling us how to make them. Instructions of how to turn on and operate a computer doesn't give me the knowledge to build one or repair it.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Also you just proved my point. Most people who hated the ending wanted a whole new ending. Not many were pacified by Extended Cut. If Indoctrination Theory were real, it'd be the perfect set up for a new ending that would pacify everyone. But they didn't. Instead they spent months on what many so eloquently refer to as "turd polishing" which knocked out quite a few of IT's supports.

You never had a point to make and the EC was enough to pacify the majority. all they had to do was show you a pretty slideshow with some implausible implications with a narrator talking about what the hope, think and plan to make happen. However, not a single EC ending says what actually does happen.
 
I don't believe in Dream Theory so your argument is moot. IT-Con makes sense with the existing endings. Actually, it is the only way to make sense of the endings. You're only option is IT-Con, IT-WNT or the Bad Writting theory. That's it.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Just face it, Indoctrination Theory is your own delusion because you hate Mass Effect's current conclusion and don't want to accept it. As long as you believe in IT, you have hope that something better will be added.

It's denial, nothing more, nothing less.

Once again, you don't pay attention. Your lack of attention is probably why you didn't figure out that you were being indoctrinated. I don't believe in Dream Theory. So I don;t have any fundamental problems with the endings. It's actually pretty cool in a way that they indoctrinated players like you.

If you truly believe that IT-con is wishful thinking follow the link and post a thorough rebuttal. It's long, so I'd pick one analysi vs trying to cover them all at once. Otherwise, you're just all talk.

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419372

[WhiteKnyght]

The Twilight God wrote...

Once again, you don't pay attention. Your lack of attention is probably why you didn't figure out that you were being indoctrinated. I don't believe in Dream Theory. So I don;t have any fundamental problems with the endings. It's actually pretty cool in a way that they indoctrinated players like you.

If you truly believe that IT-con is wishful thinking follow the link and post a thorough rebuttal. It's long, so I'd pick one analysi vs trying to cover them all at once. Otherwise, you're just all talk.

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419372

No, you're not paying attention.

Indoctrination's first and foremost sign is being stripped of free will. The very fact that you choose, YOU, whether or not you Destroy, Control, Merge, or Refuse, is undeniable proof of free will.

The Catalyst may want synthesis and refusing is no skin off of his holographic nose, but he openly doesn't like and verbalizes the downsides of Control and Destroy, he doesn't lure you into them. Because both of those would render him nonexistent and allow the "chaos" to continue. And when you have low EMS and synthesis isn't available, he hates your very presence because those are the only choices.

When The Illusive Man was indoctrinated, he believed he was still making choices, until he tries to do what he wants and realizes they aren't letting him. If Shepard would be indoctrinated, he would choose destroy or control but would be jumping into the laser against his will.

Mass Effect Retribution also gives a very thorough analysis of the indoctrination process. There are no grandiose hallucinations or mental tricks that your theory is claiming. It's a deteriorating. Over time, Paul Grayson slowly transformed from a normal person into a reaper monster and lost all of his free will from the very start. There was no "make a choice" trick with an all-at-once result.

[Bill Casey]

Indoctrination's first and foremost sign is being stripped of free will.

No it isn't...
The more control exerted over a thrall, the less useful it becomes...
Indoctrination uses physical and psychological conditioning techniques to bring people around to their way of thinking...

When The Illusive Man was indoctrinated, he believed he was still making choices, until he tries to do what he wants and realizes they aren't letting him. If Shepard would be indoctrinated, he would choose destroy or control but would be jumping into the laser against his will.

By that point, the Illusive Man has shoved a bunch of Reaper tech into his body...
Just like what happened with Saren...


Shepard isn't indoctrinated. He's fighting indoctrination...
You are fighting indoctrination...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:24 .

[Adanu]

Hrothdane wrote...

Adanu wrote...

IT is a bunch of nonsense idiots have put together because they simply can't understand views other than their own.

I understand your views just fine, and I think you are entitled to have them, just as I am entitled to my own.

If you want to call my ideas nonsense and my friends in the IT thread idiots, then you have just proven that you are the one that refuses to understand.

I understand just fine. You and people like you refuse to accept that a if it quacks like a duck, moves like a duck, and swims like a duck, it's a duck. Instead, you think it's a Crocodile trying to eat you.

You take a bunch of little effects and make them out to be far more than they actually are in order to fit what you don't like into something you do, despitre it not actually being that.

I consider this nonsense, and  I consider people that -despite EC and the new DLC- still believe in IT stuff as fools.

[Omega2079]

[Devil's Advocate]

An arrogant (and arguable evil) race that wants control of the galaxy and to be worshiped as gods, makes a poorly programmed ai to carry out their goals, and then that ai turns on them. The ai is shown to be manipulative and willing to use any means to gain control, and wipes out life on 50k yr cycles.

That kills IT?

Modifié par Omega2079, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:01 .