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[The Twilight God]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

No, you're not paying attention.

Indoctrination's first and foremost sign is being stripped of free will. The very fact that you choose, YOU, whether or not you Destroy, Control, Merge, or Refuse, is undeniable proof of free will.

Incorrect.

Indoctrination changes the person so that they make the choice. So that their though processes are aligned with the Reapers' objectives. You're confusing indoctrination with taking over motor controls which is only seen in people with reaper tech implantation.

The Twilight God wrote...

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

1. Picking Synthesis or Control demonstrates this. Synthesis is a validation of all the Reapers actions. By choosing it you are sayiing that the idea they present is right and synthesis is a necessity. You, the player, have been indoctrinated into their way of thinking. [They don't have to directly control you. They've convinced you to do it yourself]
2. Believing in Control puts Shepard in the same boat as TIM and all those indoctrinated people from previous cycles. You, the player, have been indoctrinated into believing the Reapers can be controlled. [You make the choice, but they are the one's who manipulated you into making that choice]

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

1. The ethereal image of a supposedly dead kid fits the bill.
2. We heard this during the scene with The Illusive Man and the Kid's voice is overlayed with an outside fascimile of Shepard's voice.
3. The Dreams result in headaches.
4. The scene with TIM has buzzing, headaches. Ringing the ears occurs at some points in the game, but it's circumstantial in those cases.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

1. Refusal is the ultimate betrayal as you hang the entire galaxy out to dry knwoing full well that they will all die because of your choice.
2. Once again, synthesis and control require blind absolute trust in the Reapers.
3. It could even be argued that Shepard's control narration bit about being "Immortal. Infinite. Eternal" is an example of "superstitious awe" applied to himself. [just like Soveriegn thought that about itself. Shepard knew this was false, but now he believes it even though it is an objective falsehood that Shepard himself has prove to be a falsehood?]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The Catalyst may want synthesis and refusing is no skin off of his holographic nose, but he openly doesn't like and verbalizes the downsides of Control and Destroy, he doesn't lure you into them. Because both of those would render him nonexistent and allow the "chaos" to continue. And when you have low EMS and synthesis isn't available, he hates your very presence because those are the only choices.

You're circular logic continues to not impress. "A is true > Kid says A is true > A is true".

No, Control does not render it nonexistent nor does it mention any downside(other then death which is also in synthesis and heavily implied in destroy). The Kid can turn the control prongs on and off at will. It is the one who turns them on for you to use when you apporach them. Who do you think installed it there in the first place? Why would the Reapers ever bother to built a device that can control them? It's utter nonsense.

The Twilight God wrote...

1. The Crucible docks, but is not doing anything.
2. Shepard interacts with the prongs.
3. The Crucible arms itself and fires.
4. It is thus deduced that Shepard's interaction with the control prongs was in accordance with the overall contraption's intended purpose.
5. It can thus be further deduced that the control prongs, and by association the entire contraption, were constructed with the intent of interacting with the Crucible.
6. It has been confirmed in the very opener of the segment that the contraptions at eye level are NOT a part of the Crucible.
7. The contraptions are built into and plugged into the Citadel.
8. If the contraptions were built by the Citadel's organic inhabitants, per the Crucible's schematics, it would be known that the Citadel was a component beforehand. That is not the case.
9. The Citadel is of Reaper construction.
10. Conclusion: the Reapers built the Contraption.
11. If the Reapers built a contraption that interfaces with the Crucible, the Reaper must have some technical details on the Crucible in order to have the understanding of how it works in order to build a device tailored to interfacing with the Crucible.

A question emerges: Why would the Reapers build a device of their own volition with the sole purpose of interfacing with the Crucible in order to give a single person the capability to take control of the Reaper Collective?

They wouldn't.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

When The Illusive Man was indoctrinated, he believed he was still making choices, until he tries to do what he wants and realizes they aren't letting him. If Shepard would be indoctrinated, he would choose destroy or control but would be jumping into the laser against his will.

I never said he is flat out indoctrinated. An indoctrination attempt is taking place. It's success or failure is based on the players' choice. And as I mentioned above, only those with implants are physically prevented from disobedience. Shepard has no reaper tech implanted in him.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Mass Effect Retribution also gives a very thorough analysis of the indoctrination process. There are no grandiose hallucinations or mental tricks that your theory is claiming. It's a deteriorating. Over time, Paul Grayson slowly transformed from a normal person into a reaper monster and lost all of his free will from the very start. There was no "make a choice" trick with an all-at-once result.

Paul Grayson was trapped in his own body. The Reapers didn't need to fully indoctrinate him. They literally turned his body into a living husk and directly controlled it. He was just along for the ride and still struggling to fight them at the very end of the book. When the Reapers left he was relieved as opposed to Dr. Kenson who was indoctrinated and was distraught when the Reaper left her. And of course... *drumroll* he was implanted!!

And to deny the other symptoms of indoctrination stated in the codex is just funny. Now Paul Grayson, who was never even fully indoctrinated in a novel, trumps the game and the codex.  I guess Harbinger speakign to shepard in Arrival didn't happen? The Reaper didn't pull the kid out of shepard's mind? Just a huge coincidence that the Kid appears as a human child? You're hilarious.

[Ithurael]

Bill Casey wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

How?

Bioware has stated several times there is no more post ending dlc coming

They have stated that ME3 is the end of sheps jouney and story. No shepard in ME4

Merizan even stated that if your version of IT needs more content post breath scene - that is not the interpretation of bioware nor will it be delivered upon as they are done with the endings.

So...shep wake up and then....?

No more post ending DLC
No ME4 with shepard

inb4biowarelies

IT Dream doesn't need DLC...
You need everything spoonfed to you...

It doesn't if you want to headcanon everything after shep wakes up.

IT is a valid interpretation because it is someones interpretation. IT Dream is not a plausible for future mass effect games.

So, if you believe that the entire game is happening in sheps head and he is still on earth - dreaming. Once you shoot the tube. Shep will wake up...

thats it. nothing else.

deal wit it:O

[AllegedVixEo]

Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse isn't "letting" the Reapers do anything. At least not from Shepard's perspective. He believes that they can win without the Crucible. But he's wrong.

And before the Catalyst, Shepard wanted to use that crucible to destroy them...

Shepard wanted to use the Crucible to destroy them because it never dawned on anyone that the Crucible was anything more than a big gun intended for just that purpose.  When Shepard is enlightened to understand the full potential of what the Crucible can actually do she is given a choice with new options.  It is illogical to assume that changing her mind at this juncture of the game is surely a sign of indoctrination.  

That's like assuming that if Shepard is getting ready to make a grilled cheese sandwich because all she has is the ingredients for grilled cheese, and then the Catalyst comes up and offers her the choice making either her grilled cheese sandwich, or a blt, or a tuna salad crossiant - that she would still pick the grilled cheese.  It's impossible to analyze the logic until the other choices are provided, and just because the Alliance feeds her grilled cheese every day for lunch doesn't mean she wouldn't opt to make another choice in light of the new options, maybe even a healthier choice like tuna salad.

In the bigger picture, was Shepard not maybe a little indoctrinated already, by the mentality associated with being the military?  She was accustomed to taking orders from Hackett and Anderson without asking too many questions(erm..sometimes).  I found it a little liberating that Shepard, who always had the presence of mind to be a real leader, was able to make her own choice in the end - to defy the alliance, the illusive man, what have you, and do what she thought was best because, let's face it, Shepard was always the best decision maker of the bunch and didn't belong in a system where she was not on the top of the food chain.  

Synthesis isn't "siding" with the Reapers either. Leviathan explained that the Catalyst is dictated by his programming and will do the cycle until an ideal solution presents itself. Synthesis is that better idea. Before the crucibe got slapped on his ass, he didn't believe it was possible any more than the skeptics on the forums do.

Yes. Perfecting everyone. Combining organic and synthetic life into a final evolution. Connecting everyone together. That's totally not a prettier version of what the reapers have been doing...

This is interesting to me.  I kind of took that an underlying concept in Mass Effect was a struggle with ethics and an acknowledgment of a major GRAY AREA.  You go through 2 games with this military attitude of blowing up the bad guys because that's what the Alliance does (and that's kinda what shooting games are all about) and you know who the bad guys are, and who the good guys are, and good should be victorious over bad..right?  But as you go through the ME series those lines kind of blur along the way.  

In ME1 the Geth are bad, and you kill a bunch of them.. But as the games progress you come to learn a lot about the Geth, you even grow to like them (in most cases), and you can opt to save them at the end.    In ME2 The Collector's are pretty bad, but you learn that they are born of one of the most advanced species in the gallery and essentially souless slaves, and you have to feel a little bad for them.  Cerberus is really bad, but the Illusive Man thinks his intentions are good, that they are helping humanity.  In ME3 the game is no longer about just blowing up things that get in your way, it's about doing characteristically "good" things through hard choices.. Like choosing to have Mordin sacrifice himself to save the Krogan race from the Genophage, and choosing to unite the Quarians and Geth, and going above and beyond your calling as an Alliance military personnel.  

So, my point, while "Perfecting Everyone" through synthesis is morally very gray, it follows the common theme that good vs bad is a myth.  That sometimes good things come from bad actions (ie- Blowing up an entire Batarian colony to stop a Reaper attack), and bad things come from good intentions (Cerberus and the plight of TIM).  To say that making any play to save the universe is a sign of indoctrination because it "seems like something the Reapers might do" holds no water in the context of the Mass Effect series, because the concept of absolute good and absolute bad are completely negated by the thematic undertones of the whole game, there is only what is necessary to stop the harvest, which is exactly what Shepard does in choosing synthesis.  

Synthesis, interestingly enough, is the only ending that theoretically does completely stop the Harvest from ever occuring again.  I choose to believe that the game isn't written this way because BW wants to dupe us into indoctrination, as the theory prescribes if you choose synthesis everything really sucks and you just don't know any better.  I reject that idea, and propose that synthesis is such a morally gray choice that it is the only appropriate option to illustrate the evolution of Shepard's understanding, going from Alliance yes man (destroy) to Cerberus pawn (control), to something else completely - a Phoenix, a hero wise beyond her years with an open minded and unbias, completely original take on life derived from her internalizations of her own personal experiences with relationships, war and loss....like the opposite of indoctrination.

[N7 Shadow 90]

Some people claim that the Citadel part of the ending was made up out of Shep's memory.(Shadow Broker ship, the conduit e.g.) If Shep knows of the 'Intelligence/Catylst', what's say that it is not just another one of Shep's memories.