37 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Estelindis wrote...

Wow. I know she's annoying, but last time I checked being annoying wasn't a death penalty offence... o.O

Anyway, yes: you have to complete the Circle of the Magi questline in order to get the Circle's help for Connor. But you're gonna have to do that quest anyway, so why not? Arl Eamon's a pretty decent guy, and both he and Alistair will be happier without the bloodshed.

Being annoying may not be, but causing the death of all the castle's soldiers, and bringing about the poisoning of her husband by attempting to thwart the very religious order she proclaims dedication to are.  If Isolde had not tried to keep Connor from going to the Circle, then none of the events that play out in Redcliffe could have played out.  Jowan may indeed be the poisoner, but Isolde is the conspirator that let him in.  She is ignorant of his real purpose, but is no less guilty.

If you don't loot the Litany from Nial's body after the Fade sequence, then you won't get any clues to use it.  I managed to defeat Uldred my first time through without it, and to save Irving, but I had Wynne and Morrigan, and got lucky with a spell combo.  I was under the impression that it wouldn't work on him, but hey, I'll take it, even if it was a bug.

[Apophis2412]

robertthebard wrote...


Being annoying may not be, but causing the death of all the castle's soldiers, and bringing about the poisoning of her husband by attempting to thwart the very religious order she proclaims dedication to are.  If Isolde had not tried to keep Connor from going to the Circle, then none of the events that play out in Redcliffe could have played out.  Jowan may indeed be the poisoner, but Isolde is the conspirator that let him in.  She is ignorant of his real purpose, but is no less guilty.

How did she bring about the poisoning of her husband? And anyway, you're basically condemming Isolder, because she loves her son to much. She is stupid because she is like every other mother I know?

[Apophis2412]

packardbell wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

packardbell wrote...

PedroNaKwasie wrote...

packardbell wrote...

Which is obviously better than the alternative.

I disagree. Isolde is so annoying it's really difficult not to let her die.

Well if you're a champion of all that is good, it's not.

B)

You're a Grey Warden in this game, not a knight of Camelot.

Well if you're playing a morally-good Warden, it's about the same really.

You do agree that stopping the Blight is more important than morality don't you?

[JosieJ]

Estelindis wrote...

JosieJ wrote...
I'm not sure if I've had a bug with my game, but every time I've used the Litany, I've saved about 3 or 4 of the other mages in addition to Irving, but they end up dying (spontaneously?) after I kill Uldred.

You too?  So I'm not the only one to try this in vain...

Well, I wouldn't say "in vain," since the game considered that I did save them!  It is weird to see them all keel over and die at the same time, and to listen to everyone congratulate me for saving all the mages I could afterward, though!

[robertthebard]

Apophis2412 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...


Being annoying may not be, but causing the death of all the castle's soldiers, and bringing about the poisoning of her husband by attempting to thwart the very religious order she proclaims dedication to are.  If Isolde had not tried to keep Connor from going to the Circle, then none of the events that play out in Redcliffe could have played out.  Jowan may indeed be the poisoner, but Isolde is the conspirator that let him in.  She is ignorant of his real purpose, but is no less guilty.

How did she bring about the poisoning of her husband? And anyway, you're basically condemming Isolder, because she loves her son to much. She is stupid because she is like every other mother I know?

If she had done the "right thing", and sent Connor to the Circle for training, as her religion demands, then Jowan would not have come to the castle.  Jowan comes with the blessing of Isolde to teach Connor in secret.  This isn't a secret codex you can unlock, it is discussed indepth once you defeat Teaghan in the Hall.  So, no trying to cheat the system, no blood mage in the castle to poison Eamon.

[Sabriana]

Connor is a mage, and the law says that mages absolutely need to be under chantry supervision. Even highborn mages are not exempt. To circumvent this, Isolde broke Chantry law, not once but twice. First she tries to keep her son's magical powers under wraps, and second, she hires as apostate mage to teach Connor the hiding of his magical abilities.



The apostate mage would not be hired had Connor been given to the Circle as any other child has to leave her/his family. No mage - no poisoned arl. At least not from this angle, Loghain would've had to think of something different.



The poisoning has the effect of an unsupervised/untaught little mage being possessed and the demon is running rampant in the castle and the village, terrorizing, hurting, and killing.



My group has already heard rumours about trouble at the tower from the gossips in Lothering. When my PC asks for time to think about Isolde's proposal, the arlessa says something in the lines of "Make it quick, who knows what the demon will do next." So logically, my PC decides to take her offer. It is an atonement for having started the whole mess, and it can be done immediately. It's not feasable (other than by metagaming) to believe that demon/Connor will sit nice and quiet-like in his room for the 2 - 3 days it would take to go to the tower and back. In my case it would take much, much longer because I hadn't even started the mage's quest yet.



Village and Castle are utterly decimated, and could not withstand another attack, especially with Teagan being under the influence of the demon-boy. For the PC it makes a lot of sense to end this as quickly as possible, without putting anymore lives at risk. Even Isolde thinks time is of the essence, at least that's what she says. However, she has told a lot of lies, but logically, the faster this is done with, the better. The welfare of the one does never supersede the welfare of the many, even if Isolde only sees that at the very end.

[Estelindis]

robertthebard wrote...
If she had done the "right thing", and sent Connor to the Circle for training, as her religion demands, then Jowan would not have come to the castle.  Jowan comes with the blessing of Isolde to teach Connor in secret.  This isn't a secret codex you can unlock, it is discussed indepth once you defeat Teaghan in the Hall.  So, no trying to cheat the system, no blood mage in the castle to poison Eamon.

Actually, I have to agree with you here.  Fair play.  There's never any talk of Isolde being punished for collaborating with a blood mage (or, for that matter, torturing a prisoner, on the other side of things).  But maybe, by that stage, she's suffered enough?

[robertthebard]

Estelindis wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
If she had done the "right thing", and sent Connor to the Circle for training, as her religion demands, then Jowan would not have come to the castle.  Jowan comes with the blessing of Isolde to teach Connor in secret.  This isn't a secret codex you can unlock, it is discussed indepth once you defeat Teaghan in the Hall.  So, no trying to cheat the system, no blood mage in the castle to poison Eamon.

Actually, I have to agree with you here.  Fair play.  There's never any talk of Isolde being punished for collaborating with a blood mage (or, for that matter, torturing a prisoner, on the other side of things).  But maybe, by that stage, she's suffered enough?

I have yet to kill Connor, and I only did Jowan's ritual once, I think, on my very first play through.  However, for crimes with similar consequence, people insist that the only option is for Loghain to die.  Loghain's pulling off the battle at Ostagar killed the king, true enough, but Isolde's actions could very well have killed off Eamon, which was Loghain's intent, or at least we presume it's Loghain, could have been Howe, I suppose.  With the added complicaton of the loss of both military and civilian lives in Redcliffe.  So, while she may have to live with that guilt the rest of her live, if it's not punishment for one, should it be considered enough for another?

[Estelindis]

JosieJ wrote...
Well, I wouldn't say "in vain," since the game considered that I did save them!  It is weird to see them all keel over and die at the same time, and to listen to everyone congratulate me for saving all the mages I could afterward, though!

Well, when you put it that way...    I had just assumed it was a bug in a different way (i.e. considering them as alive when they were dead, not making them dead when they were supposed to be alive).  But now I shall consider my character as having saved them!

robertthebard wrote...
for crimes with similar consequence,
people insist that the only option is for Loghain to die.  Loghain's
pulling off the battle at Ostagar killed the king, true enough, but
Isolde's actions could very well have killed off Eamon, which was
Loghain's intent, or at least we presume it's Loghain, could have been
Howe, I suppose.  With the added complicaton of the loss of both
military and civilian lives in Redcliffe.  So, while she may have to
live with that guilt the rest of her live, if it's not punishment for
one, should it be considered enough for another?

While that's a fair point, there isn't exactly a similar "third option" for the Loghain situation.  Personally, if it's a choice between him and Alistair, I'll pick Ali any day.  The person who has been fighting darkspawn with me from day one versus... Loghain?  (And I know you can keep Ali as king if you harden him and negotiate the Anora marriage, and still have Loghain, but I only figured that out on my fifth try at the endgame, so I don't think it's exactly intuitive...  And even in that case, he's still not part of the group.  And yes, that is his choice not the PC's, but even so.  It is the choice the game presents, and that's what we have to deal with.)

[RobinMichelleB]

I haven't had a problem with this quest in the PS3 version, and I've done it a couple times. As long as I've saved Irving, then the Circle is saved. The mages who show up at Redcliffe, oddly enough, are random (maybe there were more hiding in closets?), so I'm guessing it implies that there are more survivors than the ones you meet, especially since Irving promises you aid in the army. It wouldn't be THAT impressive if he were like, well, you saved ME, that's all you need. I'll fight!

[ejoslin]

packardbell wrote...

PedroNaKwasie wrote...

packardbell wrote...

Which is obviously better than the alternative.

Well if you're a champion of all that is good, it's not.

B)

Without metagaming, how is it a better alternative?  You have this demon who can control everyone in the castle, who has wiped out nearly an entire village and made it clear that he's going to continue to do so.  So you leave for a week?  This is the one part of the game I don't like.  There should have been consequences for leaving to get the mages.  My first play through I used blood magic and killed Isolde.  Not because I was evil, but because I didn't want any more people to die, and as a mother, I knew she would rather be the one to die than her son.
I disagree. Isolde is so annoying it's really difficult not to let her die.

edit: fixed formatting

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 janvier 2010 - 02:33 .

[Freckles04]

On my first playthrough, I had Isolde kill Connor. Evil, I know. However, Alistair had kind of pointed me in the direction of killing the boy and then insisted that blood magic was not an option...and then Isolde wanted to be the one who did it...so, yeah. I didn't go with the get-the-mages option, because I didn't really think it was much of an option, either. I was certain everyone would be dead by the time I got back.

On a subsequent playthrough, I discovered that going to get the mages has no consequences, so I can't justify NOT doing that now. Metagaming, maybe, but now that I know, it feels even more evil to sacrifice Isolde or Connor.

Not that Isolde hasn't earned it, mind you. She pretty much single-handedly destroyed her world.