26 réponses à ce sujet

[philippe willaume]

 Ok I am an old man, I practice martial arts 4 times a
week hence I hit the deck with a certain velocity . As well joust and head shot
are valid . So my intellectual faculties could  be the cause of my present
predicament but I would be grateful if someone could enlighten me

 

in an other thread I have seen stated that the combat in
DA3  was going to be like DA:2 was pretty
much a done deal as well as look of the companion being fixed like in DA:2

 

Now seeing those two videos





 

it seems to me that combat will has nothing to do with DA2 combat. in fact it is a looks as if it is a massive
improvement.

in the first yes we have "iconic look" but i can
be customised again that is much better than DA2

 

Have I missed an announcement somewhere and those plan have
been scraped or what?

 

Phil

[KENNY4753]

I prefer the DA:O combat. It's more tactical than DA2 in my opinion

I haven't heard what the plan is for DA3 combat yet.

Modifié par KENNY4753, 13 septembre 2012 - 10:51 .

[philippe willaume]

KENNY4753 wrote...

I prefer the DA:O combat. It's more tactical than DA2 in my opinion

I haven't heard what the plan is for DA3 combat yet.

no argument there bro

[Face of Evil]

I don't get what was so "tactical" about DAO's combat, unless "slow" equates to "tactical." For all that I hear about people planning ahead for battles, here was my strategy 90% of the time on Hard or Nightmare difficulty:

1) See enemies
2) Wade into combat
3) Stab baddies until they fell over

There were a few times when I stealthily crept ahead, laying traps and disarming the ones set by enemies. But enemies frequently spotted you and the damage from traps was immaterial; in all of DAO and its subsequent DLCs, I can only think of three times when advance preparation actually saved my ass, and none of them were essential battles.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 septembre 2012 - 11:02 .

[philippe willaume]

Face of Evil wrote...

I don't get what was so "tactical" about DAO's combat, unless "slow" equates to "tactical." For all that I hear about people planning ahead for battles, here was my strategy 90% of the time on Hard or Nightmare difficulty:

1) See enemies
2) Wade into combat
3) Stab baddies until they fell over

There were a few times when I stealthily crept ahead, laying traps and disarming the ones set by enemies. But enemies frequently spotted you and the damage from traps was immaterial; in all of DAO and its subsequent DLCs, I can only think of three times when advance preparation actually saved my ass, and none of them were essential battles.

To be honest with you.

It depends what you played, for example having two mages in the group, you steam roll everything and DA:0 combat becomes as boring and repetitive as DA:2

If you built you char and the companion  according to the role you saw him/her in, you would end up with sub optimal characters and because of the large maps and the dodgy path finding, you could use the terrain features and bottle neck to your advantage and you could lure enemy toward position you had set up.

 As well having two specialisations made every one in the group more versatile and you could adapt to situation much more easily.
you can't really do that in DA:2.

But really my question is where does the combat is DA:3  will be like DA:2  comes from.

With the info from the vid, the combat will be much more tactical and group based IE not at all like  DA:2  (which i think is a very good news)

Phil

 

PS instead of stealth there was a skill that showed the enemy on the map. So you could do without scouting.

PSS if your stealth was good enough and you did not come too close you get away with being detected.

Modifié par philippe willaume, 13 septembre 2012 - 11:20 .

[Boss Fog]

This is how combat for me went down in DA:O roughly 50% of the time..

1. Group of enemies ahead with one elite in the middle - cast sleep and walking nightmare on the whole group, assassin's mark and death hex on the elite

2. Stunlock the elite to death with sunder armor and sunder arms, followed by a critical strike for good measure. Pick off all the normals with whatever, they aren't a significant threat unless they are archers spamming scattershot.

Point to take from this: there are different ways to kill mobs in DA:O, some people do it differently then I do; but no matter how it's done, tactics are involved.

This is how combat for me went down in DA2 roughly 50% of the time..

1. Group of enemies ahead with a commander or assassin in the middle; Fenris charges in and spirit pulses, followed by whirlwind which will typically stagger most of them.

2. Merril casts chain lightning killing at least half the mobs. Other mage (Hawke or Anders) casts winters grasp on the commander/assassin while Merril casts hex of vulnerability. If the elite becomes brittle, Fenris either hits them with a mighty blow or rogue Hawke hits them with assassinate; preferably the latter.

3. Second or third wave shows up; tactics may change slightly depending on the mobs.

Point to take from this: there are different ways to kill mobs in DA2, some people do it differently then I do; but no matter how it's done, tactics are involved.

Both games are tactical, to claim DA2 isn't tactical simply because of the waves of enemies doesn't really prove anyone's point, it just means you have more enemies to kill. Also, the waves of enemies problem has already been fixed so it won't show up again.

[N7 ElusiveOne]

Telvanni is correct, DA2 wasn't any less tactical, but it was less visually exciting due to the haphazard way the battles played out. Wave combat looked hilarious in the vanilla game but was then addressed in the DLC. I imagine Bioware also intends to slow the game down a bit to reduce the feeling of playing a action game. So that leaves the tactical camera and cinematic kills which should both return, while the exploding bodies should go away completely.

Modifié par ElusiveOneN7, 13 septembre 2012 - 11:50 .

[Dirty Whore]

I...I kinda want finishing moves back...

I also never want to hear the words "Another wave" again unless I am in a battle against an entire army a la Yaga Shura battle in Throne of Bhaal.

[Tommyspa]

I'd much prefer combat to be like in Legacy and Mark of the Assassin. If a smidgen less over the top. Just don't ever go back to the awful that is Origins animations.

[Sylvianus]

Yes, finishing moves again, a must for DA3 ! I want my next hero as badass as my warden.

[Dirty Whore]

Just don't ever go back to the awful that is Origins animations.

what, you didn't like when Alistair shield bashes the air in front of him and 10 seconds later a genlock nowhere near him got sent flying?


...still want finishing moves to make a comeback...

[Welsh Inferno]

Sylvianus wrote...

Yes, finishing moves again, a must for DA3 ! I want my next hero as badass as my warden.

Definately. Missed them a great deal in da2.

[MichaelStuart]

In Dragon Age 3.
I want to be able to actual hit and dodge, while having to give orders to my companions.

Modifié par MichaelStuart, 14 septembre 2012 - 12:28 .

[philippe willaume]

ElusiveOneN7 wrote...

Telvanni is correct, DA2 wasn't any less tactical, but it was less visually exciting due to the haphazard way the battles played out. Wave combat looked hilarious in the vanilla game but was then addressed in the DLC. I imagine Bioware also intends to slow the game down a bit to reduce the feeling of playing a action game. So that leaves the tactical camera and cinematic kills which should both return, while the exploding bodies should go away completely.

Hello 

there is really two aspect toTtelvanni comment.

at one level yes that is totally true.

my tactic in Da:2 was for a warrior (vanguard bersk) activate turbo modes and see-smash and the only hint of tactic was refuellingstamina with easy kill. That worked all the time from ACTI to ACTIII

and when I played two mages in DA:O, it was the same tedious feeling. it did not mater where I was or what it was I was fighting, it was the same rinse and repeat.
In fact in that context DA:2 is an improvement over DA:0 as combat are marginally quicker.

In both case the tactical involvement is very basic and the team tactical planning is totally inexistent as they don't really matter that much (one or a two char are the key to success)


And at an other level it is not the case at all.

if you play suboptimal char in DA:0. you are going to get your arse kicked in every combat unless you plan, position and use talent/and skill to take advantage of the terrain.
And that can't happen in DA:2 because
you can't know where the enemies are,
you can't split the group as you could in DA:0.
Your warrior/mêlée rogue can't use missile and your missile rogue can't use mêlée in any meaningful way in both cases (you could do that in DA:0)
You companion feel the need to finish their animation before doing what you asked and  ou will need to use all of them to be successful so that can't happen to the same extend in da:2.

 

All that has nothing to do with combat speed  or look. you have to very team tactical oriented  in real time combat flight simulators/ tank simulator, so speed  of combat has nothing to do with determining  is the game will allow proper team tactics or not.
Besides pause trumps any combat speed anyway. It really has to do with how the combat was conceptualised.

 

Hence my original question.

It was my understanding that the combat in DA:3  was going to be more tactical and that does not really  compute with DA:2 combat at a conceptual level.

Phil 

Modifié par philippe willaume, 14 septembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[Rylor Tormtor]

Face of Evil wrote...

I don't get what was so "tactical" about DAO's combat, unless "slow" equates to "tactical." For all that I hear about people planning ahead for battles, here was my strategy 90% of the time on Hard or Nightmare difficulty:

1) See enemies
2) Wade into combat
3) Stab baddies until they fell over

There were a few times when I stealthily crept ahead, laying traps and disarming the ones set by enemies. But enemies frequently spotted you and the damage from traps was immaterial; in all of DAO and its subsequent DLCs, I can only think of three times when advance preparation actually saved my ass, and none of them were essential battles.

Well, like another poster said I suppose it depends on your class. Also, your difficulty. Not disarming traps and wandering into rooms in order to stab people would only get you slaughtered on nightmare for, let's say, the Blood Mage mansion in Denerim. Or one of the Desire Demon room in the Tower. Often times drawing out single members, using LoS and using turning enemy spells back against there casters was essential (running Alistair up into the middle of the darkspawn as fast as you can because you know that genlock emissary is going to cast crushing prison on him was very important for me, as I would forcefield him and clear out the mooks). 

I reallt disliked the frenetic smashing the letter R combat of DA2. I think part of the difference is that effective strategy went into the pre-game for DA2. That is you had to set up a team that could produce the appropriate cross class effects. Then much of the strategy after that was merely waiting for an enemy to become susceptible to a condition and then you fire off your CCC. Now of course there could be exceptions to this, where you pushed Isabella or Merril or Sabastion to set a certain condition, but for the most part you are in a reactive mode. I felt in DAO you had to be more proactive in the combat. Combo's were often set up more on spur, and could be done by a single character. They also required more coordination but were not as required as DA2. General synergy was preferrable to a few gimmicky CCC expliots, and for me, it was more enjoyable. 

[Boss Fog]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

I don't get what was so "tactical" about DAO's combat, unless "slow" equates to "tactical." For all that I hear about people planning ahead for battles, here was my strategy 90% of the time on Hard or Nightmare difficulty:

1) See enemies
2) Wade into combat
3) Stab baddies until they fell over

There were a few times when I stealthily crept ahead, laying traps and disarming the ones set by enemies. But enemies frequently spotted you and the damage from traps was immaterial; in all of DAO and its subsequent DLCs, I can only think of three times when advance preparation actually saved my ass, and none of them were essential battles.

Well, like another poster said I suppose it depends on your class. Also, your difficulty. Not disarming traps and wandering into rooms in order to stab people would only get you slaughtered on nightmare for, let's say, the Blood Mage mansion in Denerim. Or one of the Desire Demon room in the Tower. Often times drawing out single members, using LoS and using turning enemy spells back against there casters was essential (running Alistair up into the middle of the darkspawn as fast as you can because you know that genlock emissary is going to cast crushing prison on him was very important for me, as I would forcefield him and clear out the mooks). 

I reallt disliked the frenetic smashing the letter R combat of DA2. I think part of the difference is that effective strategy went into the pre-game for DA2. That is you had to set up a team that could produce the appropriate cross class effects. Then much of the strategy after that was merely waiting for an enemy to become susceptible to a condition and then you fire off your CCC. Now of course there could be exceptions to this, where you pushed Isabella or Merril or Sabastion to set a certain condition, but for the most part you are in a reactive mode. I felt in DAO you had to be more proactive in the combat. Combo's were often set up more on spur, and could be done by a single character. They also required more coordination but were not as required as DA2. General synergy was preferrable to a few gimmicky CCC expliots, and for me, it was more enjoyable. 

Let me start by saying that you were in no way shape or form supposed to "smash" r on the keyboard.  If you thought it was necessary you are wrong.  The only reason you were supposed to press it in any situation is if you were A) trying to close distance on an enemy with a warrior/rogue ... or you popped assail with a physical weapon and kept knocking the enemy backwards and you had to press r to catch up to them.  In other instances, pressing r does nothing other than initiate auto attack.

There was never 1 sure fire way or team that could handle any situation with a CCC.  Yes, CCC's helped you kill elites and bosses faster but I would argue you had to put just as much effort into killing elites in DA:O unless you're lol 1 shotting a mage with mana clash which is the least tactical ability I've ever seen.  It is entirely possible to take out enemies without CCC, even on nightmare.  It does however require you to take advantage of positioning, and aoes however.  This is understand may not be everyone's ideal method but it is a tactic nonetheless and the same tactic existed very much so in DA:O when dealing with large mobs: blood wound, fireball, chain lightning, etc etc.  And that's not even a CCC, it's just one mage doing all the work by themself.

 I also do not believe that DA:O combos required more coordination.  In fact, true combos don't really exist in DAO unless you're talking about freezing someone then by chance, you happen to shatter them.  Other than that, the only true CCC combos that I can think of from DA:O is death hex + sunder arms/armor.  And most of the itme, it just boiled down to trying to dish out as much possible before your stamina/mana ran dry because even with stamina/mana regen, it wasn't all that effective.  In DA2 you had to time your CCCs very precisely (especially on nightmare) if you wanted to pull them off since the additional effects brought on by certain abilities do not linger on the character forever.

[Dragoonlordz]

The only tactical aspect for me in DA2 (core game meaning not including DLC) is managing mana pools and nothing much else. There was some combo effects that worked well but it still was merely managing mana pools due to the drop and spank nature of the enemies. They did however start or begin to make improvements in the following DLC but never got to a stage were was adequate yet. Because they stopped improving through anymore new DLCs got cancelled I do not know how it could of ended up in the long run. For example boss in Legacy was such an improvement at the end of that DLC.

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Combat mechanics in DA2 I didn't mind so much regarding the spell casting and spell combinations but the drop and spank mobs was lame aka waves of instant spawning mobs, the blood felt like was painted on in very specific way in which the locations of the blood always tended to be same spots. Monsters exploded like lego parts was not really a turn on for me. I liked the faster pace with less shuffle but they made it too fast. The lack of isometric zoom also was a big downside to DA2. The lack of being able to plan ahead and having skills that could be used for tactical play such as stealth and trapping was also bad, the lack of static units is detrimental to tactics and planning. The magical appearence of ninjas and other enemies was very bad.

The 'reinforcement' system should not be used unless your being pitted against an army or vast battlefield, including 'some' boss based battles. The 'wave' or reinforcement system should not be used for every single fight ever in games. It's unrealistic and tedious. The teleporting should be left for mages and spirits and even then through animations that can attribute to casting a teleportation spell else just use the doors and such like supposed to when entering or exiting a place. There is no real tactical use for implementing the kind of waves in DA2.

When applying tactics the enemies must be using clear shown tactics in how came into the battle such as stage by stage type evolution of reinforcement (archers, warriors, casters etc minor and major mobs timed and more exaclty location based different approaches for units and mobs) and not willy nilly drop and spank method using completley random placement and units. Most battles should have set placements (static mobs) amount of units while the major battles (story and location based) should apply reinforcements method only (even then using real tactics to approach not just dropping in random units at random places). That is what I would like to see.

If it comes down to applying difficulty to the combat you improve the tactics using much better implementation of reinforcements AND more to my liking is the DAO approach of to make progression harder through the game via varying strength between different mob types and not auto leveling of all mobs to match your own level regardless of unit type. Not a wave system on every fight to make up for lack of difficulty. Bring in new unit types as progress, stronger specific units as the game progresses while keeping the older models and units weak as you out level them, more cannon fodder to back up the new stronger ones as progress in battles as opposed to linking the weak random bandits to your maximum level hero's.

I want more features relating to out of combat skills/abilities. If I recall one of the major topics of discussion from people was they said they wanted out of combat skills more widely implemented after DA2 was released. Cloaking and pick pocketing, locks and traps (done better than shown in DA2). But the general consensus was people liked the idea behind more such features not removal. I personally would also like the return of crafting by the player not what we got in DA2 with regard to just finding a resource and someone else making it. These sorts of things are part in parcel of the role playing experience for me and I would like both to be more present and improved upon.

I never found stealth a useless skill or pick pocket, both were fun and both were ~used therefore by definition was not a useless skill. As such should of kept them imho and I hope they come back. Same applies to crafting while some people may attack my view on this I think it needs without doubt to be deeper and opened up a great deal more to what can craft from more armour, weapons, potions, traps even runes, it seemed to me to be far too inadequate in DA2 for my personal liking. Ones that have possible uses in both elements from stealth which in battle can be used for scouting and out of combat combined with pick pocketing as alternative ways to complete quests. Just one example of many. Traps and such disarm or placement for purpose of ambush after scouting in stealth being another combat skill which adds tactical elements to fights and battles.

With regard to the problem they had with closing in on casters and ranged mobs, there I feel was no need for jutsu techniques. Tactics could be used instead, from standing behind walls worked in most case or behind rocks or trees they would have to come closer or around corners to attack you putting them within range of your melee characters. Limited supply of arrows or mana again opens up opportunities for closing the gaps. These tactical elements add to the enjoyment for some but I have to admit not for everyone. Having casters and ranged members on your team also can be used to counter such, it is after all a party based game with companions present most of the time. When you are forced in a segment to be alone they could alter the fights in that section to give ways around a problem rather than relying on what felt like teleportation even though the excuse was just to fast to see move (sorry might be bit mean but it's just not how it feels to me).

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[Shadow Fox]

Mage combat?Yes

Rogue/dual wield combat?:drop the stupid combat stance.

[philippe willaume]

@
TelvanniWarlord 
nope not really, but again i think it is an effect of the game design and the class of the player

In DA: 0 you could shatter frozen enemy with stone fist or powerful blow. that worked reliably and you could set it up. the shatter had limitation according to the rank.
ie cone of cold when the get through the door, Then mighty blow and stone fist.

the same idea could be used with grease and fireball/cone.
not to mention grease+fireball and tremor, shield bash or war cry.

In DA:2 it is easy not run out of stamina (at least as a warrior) thanks to the number of easy peon kill, It is so hard to get a rogue a mage to stop faffing about that it is a better option to combat tactic their part of the CCC, So there i did not really no really had to set up anything per see.

Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:46 .

[Renmiri1]

DA2 Mage combat = Love

DAA Arcane Warrior would be fun to add though.

Oh and add access to Fenris talent tree for my warrior

[formaristarry]

I've said this elsewhere and I'll say it again here:

Keep the mage combat from DA2.

Return to rogue and warrior combat from Origins. Especially rogue because...FLURRY, PUNISHER, WHIRLWIND and RIPOSTE to name a few. I'd rather stab (actually fight) my enemy than fly around like some cracked out madman on way too much speed slashing at the air and not really DOING anything else.

What's that? All the enemies are dead? They must have killed over with laughter at my hopped up crazy as all get out cartoonish dance because I know I didn't land a single hit on them.

Also...Finishing moves are a must!

[Rawgrim]

Speed up the combat from DA:O abit, add the mage animation from DA2 (and nothing else), and add alot more finishing moves.

I want tactical combat, not button mashing as if i am playing Tekken or something.

[ImperatorMortis]

The combat for mages in DA2 is awesome. Though the offensive spells should be doing more damage. I mean I'm throwing exploding fireballs at people for Christs sake.

Fairly indifferent about Warrior, and Rogue combat. They just look boring to me.

[Shadow Fox]

Rawgrim wrote...

Speed up the combat from DA:O abit, add the mage animation from DA2 (and nothing else), and add alot more finishing moves.

I want tactical combat, not button mashing as if i am playing Tekken or something.

Have you actually bothered to play Tekken?I'd say not based on your comment as button mashing in that game will make you lose to most players.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 16 septembre 2012 - 04:35 .

[Face of Evil]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Well, like another poster said I suppose it depends on your class. Also, your difficulty. Not disarming traps and wandering into rooms in order to stab people would only get you slaughtered on nightmare for, let's say, the Blood Mage mansion in Denerim. Or one of the Desire Demon room in the Tower.

As I said, I readily concede there were some very difficult fights in DAO that required a bit of preparation. The camp with the Tal-Vashoth mercenaries was such an encounter; I led the bad guys through a long string of traps and whittled down their health before leading them back to the rest of the party.

But there were a lot of fights where you were just dropped in the middle, with no preparation that could be done. Take that one insanely difficult random encounter with wolves on the road to the Circle Tower. OH, YOU'RE IN IT NOW, THERE'S WOLVES ON ALL SIDE OF YOU PLUS TEN ZILLION CLAW TRAPS! KEEP STABBIN'! DON'T RUN! KEEP STABBIN'! DON'T RUN! HEY, YOU DON'T GOT TIME TO SMOKE A BOWL, JUST KEEP STABBIN', YO!

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Often times drawing out single members, using LoS and using turning enemy spells back against there casters was essential (running Alistair up into the middle of the darkspawn as fast as you can because you know that genlock emissary is going to cast crushing prison on him was very important for me, as I would forcefield him and clear out the mooks).

But this other stuff … I never lured any mooks out of rooms, and I prioritized killing casters just as much in DA2.

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

 Now of course there could be exceptions to this, where you pushed Isabella or Merril or Sabastion to set a certain condition, but for the most part you are in a reactive mode. I felt in DAO you had to be more proactive in the combat. Combo's were often set up more on spur, and could be done by a single character. They also required more coordination but were not as required as DA2. General synergy was preferrable to a few gimmicky CCC expliots, and for me, it was more enjoyable.

Whereas I micro-managed the hell out of every fight in DA2 (Well, there were a couple of easy ones where I was on auto-pilot) and set up nearly every combo myself by switching between party members.

I think I pretty much did the same thing in DAO and will probably do the same thing in DA3.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:12 .