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Hawke, Shepard, the Warden, and You


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#26
Gileadan

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 To me, being able to choose my character's background doesn't necessarily factor into it. As far as the protagonist is concerned, I'm fine with totally blank slates à la Elder Scrolls or elaborately pre-defined characters like Geralt of Rivia and anything in-between; I've gotten a lot of good times out of the respective games. 

My problem with Hawke was that I felt disconnected from him because of the way he was presented to me in available dialogue choices and game / story progression. I found DA2's prologue to be a very bad start, with pacing and storytelling problems. You're thrown into the game as Hawke and you and your family are running from the Darkspawn - but apparently it's not that bad, because they have time to stop for a little chat before they get back to running.  When Hawke's sibling died to the ogre, the nicest thing Hawke could say (something about the sibling sacrificing themselves) sounded a lot like something you'd tell *someone else's* mother about her dead kid, but not your own mom about your own sibling. It made the whole scene feel cold and detached. And it definitely did not make me want to be Hawke.

Then, the one year break between the prologue and act 1. There was mention of a name Hawke had made for himself, but no hint is given what kind of name that might be and how it was earned, let alone any control about it. At this point I basically felt like I had moved someone else's character to a different location and had given it back to its owner. When act 1 started, it was like going to a pen and paper game and the GM handing you the sheet of someone else's character because the guy who normally played him didn't bother showing up himself. Needless to say, the following three year breaks made that feeling even worse.

And finally, the companions. They just didn't click with me. I get easily annoyed by characters who come across as whiny or needy or plain douchebags, and no, I don't put in the effort to get to know them better just because the game mechanics let me know that they are supposed to be my companions. It made me furious that people I couldn't stand apparently broke into my house while I was away and left their junk lying around. I greatly enjoyed the companion interaction in Dragon Age: Origins, but in DA2, not so much.

And I didn't find the overall story compelling. All this combined to make Hawke difficult to like and a chore to play for me, and the greatest motivation that kept me going to the end was the thought "It's a BioWare game, it WILL get better! Soon!".

Modifié par Gileadan, 14 septembre 2012 - 02:08 .


#27
Nomen Mendax

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Do you think that maybe the idea that you could choose a background factors into it?

You could do that with all the games except for DA2.

Being able to choose a background is nice, but for me DA primarily failed as a role-playing experience because of the dialogue system.  

Having a family also put a lot of constraints on the role-playing. I was happy to play a Hawke who wanted to look after Bethany and at least tolerated mother's obsession for reclaiming her role in society.  But I think it would have pretyy much impossible to role-play a Hawke who didn't want to be tied down to their family, since the obvious thing to have done would have been to move to another city-state, particularly in Act 1.

By the way I love the idea of a game where the plot doesn't revolve around saving the world, but motivation becomes much more of an issue.

#28
jillabender

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Normen Mendax wrote…

By the way I love the idea of a game where the plot doesn't revolve around saving the world, but motivation becomes much more of an issue.


I agree – I think it's great that BioWare attempted a more personal story, and I loved personal moments like Hawke's interactions with Carver, for example. But I think that in a personal story, it's important for the focus of the story to stay on the main character's inner struggles, and for the main character's goals and motivations to be the driving force of the story.

Modifié par jillabender, 29 octobre 2012 - 03:03 .


#29
Nomen Mendax

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jillabender wrote...

Normen Mendax wrote…

By the way I love the idea of a game where the plot doesn't revolve around saving the world, but motivation becomes much more of an issue.


I agree – I think it's great that BioWare attempted a more personal story, and I loved personal moments like Hawke's interactions with Carver, for example. but I think that in a personal story, it's important for the focus of the story to stay on the main character's inner struggles, and for the main character's goals and motivations to be the driving force of the story.

How did you find playing a mage Hawke?  I ask because I started one playthrough as a mage but gave up because the world didn't seem to make any sense. Nobody knew that I was a mage even though I walked around with a 7 foot tall magic staff and blew up criminals in the street. Also given how unfriendly Kirkwall was to mages, once I'd got Carver and mother set up with Gamlin the obvious thing to do was to go somewhere else. 

#30
Fast Jimmy

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Nomen,

I play my first playthrough of any RPG as a mage, and did so in DA2. I was hesitant to even use magic at first in the fight scene that broke out in the Prologue right in front of the Templars, but realized it made no difference at all. Which was sort of jarring, but at the time, I didn't realize how anti-mage Kirkwall was, so it was just more of annoyance than anything else.

In regards to the above comment about needing motivation for a more personal story, I totally agree. Even if the 'save the world' motivation is cliche, there's very little reason to question why your hero is following it - save the world, you save yourself. But for a more personal story, your reason to stay has to be your friends and family. Your family, in particular, was a piece that was a bit strained. As a companion, you spent most of Act 1 getting to know them and then they were lost, one way or the other. Your mother, who doesn't get the benefit of being a companion and being able to have dialog outside of the house, can start to warm up to you by Act 2... at which point she is taken away, too.

If a section of the game had taken place BEFORE the demo, where we weren't thrown into combat before we could even get our bearings (something ME3 did as well), it would have been great to get a sense of our home, our family and who our character was. How can I start to know these characters before I even know who I was? Hawke is not an easy character to self-insert with. So to get time to interact in Lothering before the dark spawn arrive would have done wonders to making the personal story more... well... personal.

#31
jillabender

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Nomen Mendax wrote...

jillabender wrote...

Normen Mendax wrote…

By the way I love the idea of a game where the plot doesn't revolve around saving the world, but motivation becomes much more of an issue.


I agree – I think it's great that BioWare attempted a more personal story, and I loved personal moments like Hawke's interactions with Carver, for example. but I think that in a personal story, it's important for the focus of the story to stay on the main character's inner struggles, and for the main character's goals and motivations to be the driving force of the story.

How did you find playing a mage Hawke?  I ask because I started one playthrough as a mage but gave up because the world didn't seem to make any sense. Nobody knew that I was a mage even though I walked around with a 7 foot tall magic staff and blew up criminals in the street. Also given how unfriendly Kirkwall was to mages, once I'd got Carver and mother set up with Gamlin the obvious thing to do was to go somewhere else.


I agree that it was a bit of a stretch to believe that a mage Hawke wouldn't be imprisoned by the Templars. It seemed to me that it would have made more sense for a mage Hawke, if he or she had to remain in Kirkwall, to either keep a very low profile and avoid getting involved in the brewing mage war altogether, or to be in hiding and actively involved with the mage underground. But to be fair, I was often able to put aside my problems with that aspect of the story.

A greater problem, for me, was that the overabundance of insane characters like Tarohne, Decimus and Grace made it difficult to feel that Kirkwall was a place full of real people living everyday lives and just trying to get by – the deaths of Evelina and Huon would have been very affecting if not for the fact that blood mages and abominations already felt like they were a dime a dozen in Kirkwall by that point in the story.

Because I got the strong impression that Kirkwall always had been, and always would be, a thoroughly chaotic and oppressive place to live, it was sometimes hard to feel as though there was much at stake.

Modifié par jillabender, 15 septembre 2012 - 05:43 .


#32
eroeru

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Background plays a role. But so does the neutrality of the character of Shepard, and the witty yet un-voiced great Warden.
Personally, I didn't like Shepard because of the VO in principle - but I wasn't insulted by his/her presence either.

Hawke was just a relatively stupid a**hole with superpowers.

Modifié par eroeru, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:16 .


#33
Nomen Mendax

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

If a section of the game had taken place BEFORE the demo, where we weren't thrown into combat before we could even get our bearings (something ME3 did as well), it would have been great to get a sense of our home, our family and who our character was. How can I start to know these characters before I even know who I was? Hawke is not an easy character to self-insert with. So to get time to interact in Lothering before the dark spawn arrive would have done wonders to making the personal story more... well... personal.

I think that would have added a lot, and seeing the destruction of your home would have also made your character feel more adrift, and hopefully made the scene where your sibling dies more affecting.

jillabender wrote...

A greater problem, for me, was that the overabundance of insane characters like Tarohne, Decimus and Grace made it difficult to feel that Kirkwall was a place full of real people living everyday lives and just trying to get by – the deaths of Evelina and Huon would have been very affecting if not for the fact that abominations already felt like they were a dime a dozen in Kirkwall by that point in the story. Because I got the strong impression that Kirkwall always had been, and always would be, a thoroughly chaotic and oppressive place to live, it was sometimes hard to feel as though there was much at stake.

 
There were quite a few times I wondered who abominations had been, as they seemed to be used as stock magical enemies, presumably nameless mages who had been attempting to avoid the circle.  Given how many abominations one saw it would have been good to see some attacking people in the street, since it would have helped the templar viewpoint.

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:31 .


#34
R2s Muse

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Hmm, really thoughtful post, OP. Thanks for sharing. I haven't played the ME series myself, just a little of the first, so I don't have an opinion on Shepard.

I personally really enjoyed playing DA2 (probably more than DA:O, TBH) and generally liked my Hawkes. I also liked the voice acting. Fem!Hawke always made me feel so cool and collected. 

But... an earlier poster mentioned something that struck a chord for me ... the strong feelings I had about Loghain and Howe, in particular, in my Cousland playthrough. I don't think anything I did as Hawke really resonated for me like that. Maybe this is similar to the OP's point that Hawke was more swept up in events than being at their core. OH, how I wanted revenge against Loghain and Howe in DA:O. I was so angry. I felt the same way when Anora betrayed me at the Howe mansion. These were all storylines that affected my character personally and I RP'd it accordingly. The only thing that sorta came close for me in DA2 was Hawke's mom's death. Otherwise, indeed, it was more often Hawke responding to other people's betrayals, angst, revenge, and anger.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Do you think that maybe the idea that you could choose a background factors into it?

You could do that with all the games except for DA2.


So, to come back to Allan's question... I don't think it was the fact of being to choose a background or not, but instead what the details of the background were. In DA:O each of the origins had some major personal issues driving the character personally, in addition to all the big save the world stuff.  I was almost raped, I lost my fiancee, I was betrayed by my brother and sent to my death in the Deep Roads, I lost my boyfriend to find out later he shacked up with someone else, I saw my poor mother sacrifice herself to stay behind with my dying father as my castle burned around them, I was yanked from my friends and family to go join a mysterious, grim-faced warrior cult. Those were some pretty big motivators for my character as she blank-stared her way through Fereldan. Alternatively, in DA2, I witnessed my sib get killed by an ogre five minutes into the game and... it wasn't nearly as affecting--especially not compared to Aveline's gutwrenching goodbye with Wesley.

Anyhoo, those are just some thoughts I had.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 14 septembre 2012 - 04:43 .


#35
Allan Schumacher

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For the Warden, I must admit that I don't really "roleplay" as such. Even if I start out with some idea about how I am going to portray a character (like a Cousland Warden who only wants revenge) I usually end up defaulting to myself somewhere down the line. I tend to base my choices on goals I have for that specific play. Those goals fit in the narrative I developed for my character, but I don't really feel as if I am roleplaying someone else. I've certainly never experienced roleplaying as some people describe it on these forums.


Just as a comment, don't let yourself get tripped up on semantics. Looks to me like you are "roleplaying" just the way you want to :)

#36
lil yonce

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jillabender wrote...

When Hawke speaks, whether I'm playing a male or female Hawke, and no matter what tone icons I choose, I don't hear Hawke – I hear an actor playing Hawke.

That doesn't mean that the voice acting for Hawke is badly done – far from it. It just means that when I hear the actors voicing Hawke, I'm always aware that they're acting. And that makes it much harder for me to connect with Hawke as a character, and to really step into the role of Hawke.

I think this may partly be because Hawke's dialogue – both in its writing and its delivery – tends to fall a bit toward the extreme end of each tone descriptor, which often makes Hawke's demeanour come across as affected and mannered, as opposed to naturalistic.

That's not necessarily a bad thing – portraying a character in a stylized way can be a perfectly respectable style choice. It's just not a style choice that worked for me, because it kept me from feeling that I truly knew Hawke – and that kept me from being able to fully inhabit the character.


I agree, OP. Too many of Hawkes lines land like bricks. Witty Hawke is often near offensive. Nice Hawke can be dull. And Aggressive Hawke's "I don't care" attitude just doesn't fit with most investigate options. It's really comical to ask an NPC to explain a situation while investigating for the Aggressive Hawke dialogue option to afterwards flatout order them to get to the point.

I would have liked to have seen a more cohesive Hawke. I'd like Hawke to be able to be charming towards one NPC and aggressive towards another in the same conversation without sounding like the guy-who's-always-nice-to-everyone when choosing the peaceful option and the guy-who's-always-short-with-everyone when choosing the aggressive option.

Personally, I'd like the dialogue wheel to shape overall attitude and personality a little less. I much prefer the dialogue statements and tone be situational.

A perfect system would allow for the nice guy to be able to be strong and sound natural.

Just as an example - To be This Guy:
And This Guy: 

Without disconnect at any point in the story.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 15 septembre 2012 - 02:31 .


#37
Dragoonlordz

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I mentioned this on my review but it seems to touch on this topic so will post it here to further discussion.


Firstly the positive.

iakus wrote...

DA2 did well in allowing you to shape Hawke.  You could really decide what kind of "Champion" you end up being.  There's plenty of rpgs out there that can't even do this well. However, what the game really didn't do was allow this Champion to have any real effect on Kirkwall. Events were pretty much locked in, all you could do was react to them. If, somehow during the endgame, the player's chocies had some sort of dramatic effect, there'd be much less disappointment.


Next the negative (personal preference)

Dragoonlordz wrote...

DAO was designed for a first person RP player at it's most, basic level (the developers have stated this themselves so I put it as 'fact' in relation to this bit), DA2 was a third person style RP game much akin to ME series. My problem is that the first game brought me into the DA franchise and instead of bringing out a sequel which stuck to this core, basic principle they switched it and I have listed a dozen or more reasons how so in other threads that would if put together be many pages long. They decided a sequel was the best time to try a complete new method for story telling with DA2, the method of 'framed narrative' ~a more personal story with choices more based around relationships instead of plot/endgame. Again this went against at a basic fundamental level the concepts changing from one set of choices/consequence system to another between it's predecessor and the sequel.

For me DA was my thing (type of title/series) is was a game developed with the same mindset as myself as a first person style RPer, a special 'original' title which I had hoped would carry on and create a series based on those core idiologies which made up the first. In reality they decided the franchise was a test ground for complete re-hash and new ideas which broke the bond I had with the series due to points 1 + 2 mentioned above... Which I would have had no problem with at all if was done in a new title that was not a sequel to the previous one I liked or more precisely if was done with another IP or new franchise or knew that they would return to the first person style RP type at some stage in DA franchise which catered to this audience much like DAO had. It would of suited for example the ME series better given the ME series was already a third person style RP game which would have in turn left me having a franchise that was first person RP style which these days if few and far between.

**The use of actual gameplay mechanics of which enforces one style of play more than the other and was done by purpose by the developers promoting one form of narrative (method of telling a story) over another between first and third. That perception is forged through design choices and gameplay mechanics. While not impossible to overcome through vivid imagination it becomes much harder to do so with VO and paraphrasing. Gameplay mechanic changes such as adding a VO or silent, paraphrasing or full text descriptive lines and such things like having a CC or not plus other such things like a game lacking a choice system or having one and customisation too all have an effect on third or first persona RPing from the perspective of immersion which leads consequently to enjoyment.**


Hawke was always Hawke, he was never anything but Hawke, Shepard is always Shepard and can never be anything but Shepard. This is a limitation on role playing in the sense it has a slight negative detriment of the character from being the players and enforces the sense it is Biowares. Hawke felt more like Biowares Hawke, Shepard felt more like Biowares Shepard. Dragon Age Origins the Warden felt more like my character, Skyrim character felt like my character. This leads back to the original quote I mentioned above at the top... Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect series you could shape Hawke and you can shape Shepard but they are always Shepard and always Hawke never anything else. It is forced/reinforced upon you in dialogue with every sentence spoken as they only call you Hawke and Shepard and never by the name chosen for yourself.

VO however is just one element and one that won't change in DA3 I am 100% sure will be voiced protaganist. This to me I have accepted and VO is not bad in itself as I do not mind ME being third person role playing vs first person role playing because the franchise was always that way so I got into it knowing what it was before getting invested in it. DA2 however switched the franchise around after the first title. What got me invested is no longer present. However there are ways to offset this limitation (imho) on my ability to role play by offering much more freedom in other areas. Prime example is race choice, history, gender, facial, classes, skils, equipment, loot, dialogue choices, branching plots, cause and effect all can be improved via greater depth and more freedom to make up for it.

One of the major issues with DA2 is it did not increase or improve these elements to make up for the detrimental effect on my enjoyment when it switched from first person RP to third person RP aka silent to voiced. It infact decreased all of those things which is a really, really silly thing to do when you get people invested in the franchise using one format and switch to another you should not further limit the players ability to RP. You should increase it to make up for the change which Bioware did not do. They spent so much time working on that one element (using voiced protagnists) that all the others suffered immensely (imho). DA3 needs to vastly increase time and money spent on those other areas to make it a great game to me.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:14 .


#38
Heimdall

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I think choosing background is pretty big. Shepard would have been much less appealing to me if I hadn't had that control, even if the impact was fairly limited. For Hawke, it would have been nice to have some options. Like how Hawke spent his or her adult years, obviously with differing options between mages and the rest, and getting to know the family in Lothering just prior to the Darkspawn invasion.

#39
Fast Jimmy

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^

Great post, Youth.

Although if Tebow is the next protagonist in DA3, there might be a bounty put out on your head by the BSN. :). Just saying.

#40
rapscallioness

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ianvillan wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Do you think that maybe the idea that you could choose a background factors into it?

You could do that with all the games except for DA2.


In my opinion it would of been better if you started DA2 in Lothering, it would of helped introduce your family which you have to admit was not introduced properly in DA2. 


Yes. This. Really. Mind you, I loved my FemHawke. I had no problem connecting with her as the game progressed. However, I can't really look back and honestly say that I know who she was. Or rather where she came from...I...

Like what did Hawke do before the blight? Were they all just farmers? I know Carver was in the army at Ostagar, but I have no idea about Hawke.

DA:O..origin stories were a very nice addition because I got to see what life was like for the PC before the stuff hit the fan. Knowing that and playing thru it helped to highlight the contrast of circumstances my PC was in.

Hawke has no background story. At all. In a way Hawke is more blank slate than Warden. Warden you get to pick backgrounds, but they're preset bcakground stories. With Hawke---there's nothing there. Head canon away.

Shepard's background stuff was nice, but...didn't make any impact on anything. There was a small sidequest related to your background. And maybe 2 or 3 throwaway lines from NPC's. But....I didn't get to "play" it. I didn't get to really experience any of it. So, DA:O did the background thing best. Imo.

Shepard was my first, tho. ME1 was my intro to BioWare. My intro to having the ability to customize PC's. Pick dialogue. Make choices in a game.....In most games, you just do what you're told. So, ME blew me away. And that introduced me to DA series. Shep is my first. ME1-ME2-...and the one I cried over in ME3. So, Shep is in a whole 'nother category for me.

Between the Warden and Hawke...sheesh..I love them both. I felt connected to both. Very much. I also enjoyed both games.

However, in general, I personally prefer a well paced intro to the game story. A quick chance for me to settle in, get my bearings, see who's who and what's what. And when stuff hits the fan for my PC--I'll really feel it.  I'll know what was lost in a deeper way.

#41
lil yonce

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Great post, Youth.

Although if Tebow is the next protagonist in DA3, there might be a bounty put out on your head by the BSN. :). Just saying.


Thank you. I hope I was clear enough. I like the dialogue wheel, but if can be improved I think quite a few RP problems will go away. And...

It's Tebow Time! :wizard:

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:55 .


#42
CaisLaochach

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To be honest, I've no real hatred for Hawke. The character was pretty decent, the family could have been done differently (it's such a waste for one to die off so early, if someone had to, let daddy Hawke sacrifice himself) but it generally worked well.

Given that Shepard's been pretty successful, I've no problem with another VO'd character. Plus I think DA2 and ME both conveyed personality quite well.

#43
Raikas

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ianvillan wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Do you think that maybe the idea that you could choose a background factors into it?

You could do that with all the games except for DA2.


In my opinion it would of been better if you started DA2 in Lothering, it would of helped introduce your family which you have to admit was not introduced properly in DA2. 


I think this is a great point.  I really enjoyed Hawke as a character (and I actually loved listening to snarky Hawke's lines - I liked the dialogue wheel's paraphrases just for adding that element of surprise), but I don't feel that I knew the character the way I knew Shepard or that I was being invited to inhabit the character the way I was with the Warden.

I think it's not so much that we didn't get to choose the background as that there's a sense that there is a background to the character that I-the-player am just not aware of.  I think the DLC did have a couple of parts that tried to fill it in a little (there were a couple of lines with the sibling in Legacy and a banter with Anders in MotA that talked about the parents), but those came a little to late to really change my overall image of the character (which was still postive, just that I see him from a different angle than I do the Warden or Shepard).

#44
Vanilka

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My problem with Hawke is that the character just seems so... detached and distant. I can't compare the experience to playing Shepard because I haven't played Mass Effect. Not yet. However, I'm very afraid the same thing will happen.

The Warden is wonderful because it's my character. It gives me just enough ground to build on but a lot of space to play how I want to play, who and how I want the Warden to be. I keep replaying Origins, again and again, because another and another character with a different personality comes to my mind. And, unlike Hawke, these characters are very much of a mixed bag, personalitywise. Each one of them is a little more complex. They're not just nice or just funny or just aggressive or just the combination of these. They have many different traits that even may contradict each other but, unlike with Hawke, it doesn't result in saying one line angrily while following with another said in sweet voice while smiling. At the end of the day, I look at the Warden and feel, very fondly, that "That's my girl/boy." Something I created, built and developed.

With Hawke that's just not possible. Thanks to the protagonist being voiced, the character is more or less set and that causes that I don't know Hawke and, also thanks to the paraphrasing, I don't know how he/she is going to react. I often find myself surprised with Hawke's reactions which is extremelly frustrating and I keep reloading the game just because I want to find the response that actually expresses what I want to express for that particular character. It's probably been said a million times already but I really hate seeing something as innocent-looking as "What happened?" turn into Hawke shouting, "YOU ALMOST KILLED THAT GIRL!" after clicking it in the dialogue wheel. This really breaks the game for me and makes me feel that I don't know and don't understand someone who should be my own character at all.

Less dialogue options often make me feel there's none I'd like to pick for my character, too. I know it's probably pretty much impossible to have as many options as in Origins when you have a voiced protagonist. But one of the things I love about Origins is that I can always or nearly always find a line that expresses how my character feels. In DAII? Not so much.
I'll give the situation when you bring Fenris the book as a gift as an example as I've discussed that with someone just recently. What are our options? To flirt saying that you will teach him to read, which I'm perfectly happy with when I'm romancing him. But what about Hawke that does not but still likes him as a friend? The other two options are to either make fun of him or insult him. I just can't get over that. No helpful or diplomatic responses. Situations such as these make me hate Hawke pretty badly at times and make me think about what kind of despicable person he/she is. Sometimes it just feels that I'm picking the lesser of three evils than a response I really want and that bothers me a great deal.

I must say that playing male Hawke is somewhat easier than playing lady Hawke. Maybe because I'm not trying to identify with the character so much. It definitely doesn't make me feel like he's mine though. It's more like... as jillabender has already stated somewhere, like having another NPC around. I pick and watch his reactions, he's a nice piece of grumpy eye candy, but he basically lives his own life. My roleplaying experience consists of red button, red button, red button, red button, ooh, flirt button, hmm, red button... Then I find a place where I'd really, really like to give a nicer answer and the result is... just awkward.

However, unlike some others here, I must say that, even though I prefer epic stories such as Origins has, the more personal approach of DAII has never been an issue for me and I do like how Hawke's story starts. While I would love to have more origins and a story of epic proportions again, Hawke's makes my imagination going, as well. While there are a lot of things we are told about Hawke's past, I would be able to build around it quite comfortably if only there were space for it. But Hawke's voice and the unexpected lines give the protagonist way too much personality to actually do that. I've said it before and will say it again. I unsuccessfully started the game three times before I was able to get used to the protagonist who'd basically almost never done or said what I'd expected or wanted. The less control I have over my character, the less connected I feel to it. This almost never happens with the Warden. In Origins, that was extremelly rare. I remember how upset I was when my Dalish Warden-Commander was made to kneel before Anora at the beginning of Awakening. It's a small thing, I know. But it's something she would never do and something she had never had to do before. That's a human habit. Sodding keep it! I don't see a reason why a game would or should force you to do something like that, not even asking you whether you want to do it. And yet, with Hawke it happens all the time. Even if you build the character to your own liking as much as possible, at some point its just going to act on its own thanks to paraphrasing and auto-dialogue.

Another thing is that I dislike being called by surname. Maybe it's because of where I come from but that just seems very rude and impersonal. I'd rather be called just "you" or "my friend". "My dear" or "my love" or whatever your love interests usually call you in BioWare games.

As for the voice acting itself, I must say that I think both the actors did a good job. Personally, I can't really blame them for my inability to enjoy the game more. Thought I must admit their voices contribute to the limitations. I do like male Hawke's voice. However, if I wanted to make a sweet and shy male character, I can only dream. There's simply too much personality in a voiced character.

A lot of people say that the Warden was "mute" and I understand why they do. It may sound silly but the Warden has never been mute to me, even if he/she only speaks and emotes in my head. My Warden can have the voice or the way of saying each dialogue option, or the facial expression I imagine for them. Because, again, you have the space for that. Because the NPCs you talk to never even imply that your interpretation is not correct. Because you don't see the Warden's face most of the time. Etc.

Sorry, I'm ranting. I'm just trying to give all the reasons for why I feel the way I feel about Hawke as I find myself thinking about it quite often while playing the game, and I guess I needed to share it as someone who's finished her first DAII playthrough just recently and is full of it. It doesn't mean I don't like the game. There are things like the companions, for example, that make it worth playing even for someone as old-fashioned as me. But Hawke is simply not my character and I will always feel cold towards him/her for all the reasons I've stated. I simply feel I have no control over the character and sorely miss the role play possibilities I had in Origins. I guess that's what I've basically tried to say all along by the horrendous rant above.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 15 septembre 2012 - 11:14 .


#45
Mr Fixit

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It seems many posters had a run-in with energy-boosting drugs today. There's a veritable blizzard of long posts popping up.

Just keep'em coming. I enjoy well-argued 'rants' like yours, Vanilka.

#46
dsl08002

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Hawke wasn´t my character considering that he she was pre-set.
the warden was best considering that you could create that figure from scratch like choosing race, features and so on.

But the conversation options that were in DAO was AMAZING. i applaud Bioware for writing those

#47
PsychoBlonde

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I actually disliked Shepard the most, and keeping Shepard as the main character for ME2/3 is the primary reason why I didn't play either of those games, even when I got ME2 for FREE.

And I can't really say that "the character" of "the Warden" grabbed me, because I made like, 30 of them, and in the end the one I really wanted to play was the one with the Dwarven Noble Origin who was also a.) taller and b.) a mage.  And I couldn't.  Sadface.  Qua *character*, Hawke is by far my favorite.

Now, if you're talking about being "gripped" because of *self-insertion* into the role of your character, yeah, Warden takes this hands down. I can imagine myself being the Warden (partly due to some creative ignoring on my part where the dialog in no way matched ANYTHING I would say or do--it's easier to ignore this stuff in Origins). It'd be weird to imagine myself being Shepard or Hawke.

The thing is . . . this is a kind of mental masturbation/fantasizing in my book. It's fun, but I don't think the ability of a game to lend itself to this kind of fantasizing is the be-all, end-all of the game.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 14 septembre 2012 - 08:52 .


#48
jillabender

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PsychoBlonde wrote...

I actually disliked Shepard the most, and keeping Shepard as the main character for ME2/3 is the primary reason why I didn't play either of those games, even when I got ME2 for FREE.

And I can't really say that "the character" of "the Warden" grabbed me, because I made like, 30 of them, and in the end the one I really wanted to play was the one with the Dwarven Noble Origin who was also a.) taller and b.) a mage.  And I couldn't.  Sadface.  Qua *character*, Hawke is by far my favorite.

Now, if you're talking about being "gripped" because of *self-insertion* into the role of your character, yeah, Warden takes this hands down. I can imagine myself being the Warden (partly due to some creative ignoring on my part where the dialog in no way matched ANYTHING I would say or do--it's easier to ignore this stuff in Origins). It'd be weird to imagine myself being Shepard or Hawke.

The thing is . . . this is a kind of mental masturbation/fantasizing in my book. It's fun, but I don't think the ability of a game to lend itself to this kind of fantasizing is the be-all, end-all of the game.


Thanks for your post! Just to be clear, though, I don't personally think of my characters in terms of "self-insertion" as such – I think of myself as stepping into the role of a character who may be quite different from me.

I don't personally make decisions and choose dialogue based on what I, Jill, would do if I lived in that setting – I make decisions from the point of view of my character. I don't want to get too hung up on semantics, but it's an important distinction for me.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with approaching a character as "me inserted into the world of Thedas" – it's a very satisfying form of role-playing for many people. But when I talk about my personal approach to role-playing, I'm talking about something a bit different.

I certainly agree, though, that there's nothing to dictate that every game, or even every RPG, should allow me to step into the role of a character in the way I've described – I'm just describing what I've personally found rewarding in certain RPGs.

Modifié par jillabender, 14 septembre 2012 - 09:57 .


#49
Cutlasskiwi

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Picking backgrounds was fun but it's not a requirement for me to roleplay or enjoy a RPG. Especially not if they don't really influence the story other than a few mentions here and there.

Since cRPG's don't come close to the freedom of a tabletop game offer I never try to create "my" character because I would only end up disappointed. So I roleplay the same way I always have when it comes to cRPGs: 3rd person. DA2 and Hawke enhanced my experience and despite all of DA2's faults I see it as a big improvement and a step forward.

#50
jillabender

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Youth4Ever wrote…

I would have liked to have seen a more cohesive Hawke. I'd like Hawke to be able to be charming towards one NPC and aggressive towards another in the same conversation without sounding like the guy-who's-always-nice-to-everyone when choosing the peaceful option and the guy-who's-always-short-with-everyone when choosing the aggressive option.

Personally, I'd like the dialogue wheel to shape overall attitude and personality a little less. I much prefer the dialogue statements and tone be situational.


Well said. I prefer the way the dialogue wheel is handled in Mass Effect 1 to the tone system in DA2, because it allows me to tailor Shepard's response to the situation without worrying that it will lead to jarring changes in Shepard's demeanour.

Modifié par jillabender, 14 septembre 2012 - 09:21 .