356 réponses à ce sujet

[Cimeas]

I recently replayed Dragon Age 2, and I realise how fantastic it actually looks.  It is a beautiful game.  First time through I thought "Oh boring greys and browns" but the style, the dust, the textures etc.. are fantastic and beautiful.  



[IMG]http://www.weebly.com/uploads/3/0/3/8/3038341/custom_themes/294603599317007233/files/Screenshot20120711195010793.jpg?1347748939950/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.weebly.com/uploads/3/0/3/8/3038341/custom_themes/294603599317007233/files/Screenshot20120711231332660.jpg?1347748964957 [/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.weebly.com/uploads/3/0/3/8/3038341/custom_themes/294603599317007233/files/Screenshot20120712152814343.jpg?1347748991772[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.weebly.com/uploads/3/0/3/8/3038341/custom_themes/294603599317007233/files/Screenshot20120712182253541.jpg?1347749010909[/IMG]

Modifié par Cimeas, 15 septembre 2012 - 10:45 .

[bEVEsthda]

Kroitz wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
<snip>

I´m really at a loss for words to describe your argument in any fassion that would keep in touch with the forum rules, shortsy. Please, stop it.

I'll give it a try then.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's not an art issue, it's an engine limitation/graphics issue. "We're going to ensure Kirkwall has a population of six" is not part of the art style.

coles4971 wrote...

This is beauty:

http://www.gophoto.i...pg#.UFTIJo1lRWE

Seriously, I just googled this and thought "wow, this is stunning". Pictures of DA2 don't make me think that at all, and DA:O pictures make me more nostalgic than in awe of beautiful graphics.

Also graphics, not art.

If your point is that the rendering in DA2 helps finding a bit more framerate on the consoles for the zip-zap-kabang action, I very strongly suspect you're right.

But if you think these looks are not still a matter of conscious art direction, you're wrong.

Since I only play these games on PCs, I have only vague notions of what problems the developers face on the consoles. I was recently concerned at seeing what Skyrim looked like on the 360, and the videos I've previously seen of DA2 gameplay on the 360 are also sobering.

But, of course, these images are not the result of rendering and color choices alone. Design plays a big part too.
And, personally, I've only ever criticized the DA2 design elements, which I truly despise. I try to point out that I don't mind the rendering so much (even if I suspect that is what most react against).

It would be unfair to say that art doesn't have anything to do with the TW2 image, but I don't find it interesting. DA2 initially catches the eye better.

But this doesn't matter. While the element of *art* stands out more in DA2 than TW2, this is not anything that makes the art direction of DA2 good. The art direction of TW2 serves its purpose fantastically well. That makes it very good. DA2's art direction serves its purpose about as well as pouring mustard on your strawberries. That is one reason why it's disappointing. It doesn't fit the mood the game should have.

Another reason it's annoying, is that the designs in DA2 are mix-mis-match copies of all things surrounding us in recent fantasy&SF art, from FF to Mad Max, with a heavy eastern slant. Even worse is that already the originals were superficial, empty shells. Without underlying form. Just style, and disjointed at that. Just something some people, artists or not, thought looked "cool".

TW2's designs are something much different. Lot's of effort and care have been spent to get details right. They have culture. They have an underlying form, which stems from their function and the society. Finally, the mood in TW2 is serious, and the art direction also takes this seriously. All these things are why the art direction in TW2 is brilliant. It may not be 'great art' by itself, but in the game... These are games and that is what should be served. It serves the atmosphere and immersion.
...And DA:O was something like in that direction too.

It's quite clear from what the developers have said, both in marketing interviews at the DA2 release, and on these forums, on subjects like 'iconic looks', that they are only seeing art direction from other perspectives than the DA player will. So no, I don't see it as Matt says it.
They look at marketing religion. To them, what they imagine is "unique" look (which it isn't, because it's copies and what's in fashion), is important. DA should stand out (it did before, doesn't now). The obsession with 'iconic looks' which brings nothing to game and ruins some very important gameplay customization. These things which are so precious to them, is just like some sales person speaking. And I have to say I resent that, maybe too much sometimes.

But to tie off to your original remark: Can TW2 look anything like that on the consoles? Unless it's a movie part? I don't know but suspects not. So it's not like you don't have a point. Those who sees definition as a major quality of beauty, are hard to please. They'll have to wait on next-gen consoles, or just watch movies.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 15 septembre 2012 - 11:11 .

[Cimeas]

I've now fixed my DA2 screenshots above.

How does that look bad?  I feel the DA2 art direction was good in the end.  Dragon Age's new style is *bold*.  

In the countryside (Mark of the Assassin), everything is rich greens and blues.  In the cities it's grey and brown, the orange banners contrasting against the Kirkwall night.  Kirkwall is a dark city, its a depressing, terrible place that you don't want to live in.    Bioware suceeded in making lowtown like that, full of factory smoke, haunting music and an eerie feeling.  In sundermount, everything is dark green and black, the mountains and the trees have a great contrast.  Finally you have the desert areas from Legacy which look strikingly like an abandoned DESERT.  Most in game deserts are basically a snow texture made yellow, and then some palm trees.  Well done. 

Dragon Age 2 had a fantastic art style.  The reason people hated it was because you can't have bold colour combinations for every area and then force the player to spend 30 hours in that area, because they will obviously get bored of those colours. 

Modifié par Cimeas, 15 septembre 2012 - 10:57 .

[Wulfram]

The first is very nice. Reminds me of Oblivion, but Oblivion is pretty so that's not a problem.

The second looks more like a desert ruin than a living city.

edit:  One thing I do like is DA2's skys

Modifié par Wulfram, 15 septembre 2012 - 11:12 .

[Masha Potato]

teh witcher got nothing on orlesian hats!

[Das Tentakel]

Wulfram wrote...

The first is very nice. Reminds me of Oblivion, but Oblivion is pretty so that's not a problem.

The second looks more like a desert ruin than a living city.

edit:  One thing I do like is DA2's skys

Isn't the first picture from MotA or something?

As for the second, more an industrial ruin than a desert one. Albeit with desert camouflage colours .

Industrial ruin:



Genuine desert ruin:



I think I would have liked Kirkwall as a desert ruin, with a community of desperadoes and misfits trying to survive amidst the fallen works of giants . Call it the romance of ruins.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 15 septembre 2012 - 11:20 .

[upsettingshorts]

Since when did I have anything to say about consoles?  Or animations?  It's like you're replying to someone else's post.  My statement was simply meant to convey the idea that the DA engine was/is limited.  It simply cannot handle the level of detail that TW2's can, which did amazing things with its visuals.  As far as Kroitz' weird hostility goes, I don't understand.  This thread and every single other one on DA2's art style has a habit of going off the subject of DA2's visuals on the following tangent:

Person: "These things are bad." [picture of low resolution elf in a barely populated Kirkwall]
Me, many others: "But it's not the fault of the art style, it's the fault of the game engine.  Art and graphics are different things."

Again, how is that at all controversial to claim?  I also had nothing to say about TW2's art style, and will continue to say nothing about it.  It muddies the waters of discussion.  We have another game to compare DA2 to, and that's DAO.  Tweaks aside, they are the same engine, have the same limitations, and therefore we can isolate changes that are purely artistic better.  

However, I still expect someone to post a screenshot of the one cave we got in DA2 next to several of the Deep Roads in DAO, claiming that repeated environments are "part of the art style."  I suppose therefore it will be more productive to be blunt:  I refuse to continue engaging with anyone in this thread further unless they explicitly acknowledge that they both recognize and understand the difference between art and graphics.  Period.  If that leads to a few people thinking I'm an ****, well, they wouldn't be the first and won't be the last.

If you (or anyone) acknowledges the difference, acknowledges that DAO was generic, acknowledges that DA2 has a style, but still prefer DAO's lack of it (for any reason, it doesn't matter) then I am totally fine with that opinion and we don't have anything to discuss beyond "to each his own."  On the other hand, posters confusing art/graphics, claiming DAO wasn't generic, or claiming DA2 doesn't have a style, are people with whom I have genuine disagreement.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 septembre 2012 - 11:23 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Cimeas wrote...

I've now fixed my DA2 screenshots above.

How does that look bad?  I feel the DA2 art direction was good in the end.  Dragon Age's new style is *bold*.  

In the countryside (Mark of the Assassin), everything is rich greens and blues.  In the cities it's grey and brown, the orange banners contrasting against the Kirkwall night.  Kirkwall is a dark city, its a depressing, terrible place that you don't want to live in.    Bioware suceeded in making lowtown like that, full of factory smoke, haunting music and an eerie feeling.  In sundermount, everything is dark green and black, the mountains and the trees have a great contrast.  Finally you have the desert areas from Legacy which look strikingly like an abandoned DESERT.  Most in game deserts are basically a snow texture made yellow, and then some palm trees.  Well done. 

Dragon Age 2 had a fantastic art style.  The reason people hated it was because you can't have bold colour combinations for every area and then force the player to spend 30 hours in that area, because they will obviously get bored of those colours. 

Bull****. I spent over 160 hours in Skyrim and never became bored of it's locations or art. I hated DA2's art style right out of the gate. Spending 30 hours in Kirkwall just made me hate it even more. I wasn't very fond of DA:O's art style either, but at least it didn't look like a really **** cartoon in an empty city that's supposed to be full to capacity.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 15 septembre 2012 - 11:56 .

[cJohnOne]

I haven't played skyrim but I think you mis-remembering how many people are in Kirkwall. There just isn't anyone to talk to.


Maybe it's different on 360?

Modifié par cJohnOne, 15 septembre 2012 - 11:52 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

cJohnOne wrote...

I haven't played skyrim but I think you mis-remembering how many people are in Kirkwall. There just isn't anyone to talk to.


Maybe it's different on 360?

Look at all the screenshots of DA2 presented in this thread. Kirkwall is almost completely empty.

[cJohnOne]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

cJohnOne wrote...

I haven't played skyrim but I think you mis-remembering how many people are in Kirkwall. There just isn't anyone to talk to.


Maybe it's different on 360?

Look at all the screenshots of DA2 presented in this thread. Kirkwall is almost completely empty.

Hmmm, in my game there's a lot of people in the day time in kirkwall.

[upsettingshorts]

Kirkwall being empty is not part of the art style.

[jillabender]

Upsettingshorts wrote…

My statement was simply meant to convey the idea that the DA engine was/is limited. It simply cannot handle the level of detail that TW2's can, which did amazing things with its visuals. As far as Kroitz' weird hostility goes, I don't understand. This thread and every single other one on DA2's art style has a habit of going off the subject of DA2's visuals on the following tangent:

Person: "These things are bad." [picture of low resolution elf in a barely populated Kirkwall]
Me, many others: "But it's not the fault of the art style, it's the fault of the game engine. Art and graphics are different things."

Again, how is that at all controversial to claim? I also had nothing to say about TW2's art style, and will continue to say nothing about it. It muddies the waters of discussion. We have another game to compare DA2 to, and that's DAO. Tweaks aside, they are the same engine, have the same limitations, and therefore we can isolate changes that are purely artistic better.

That's a fair point – technical choices about graphics are different from artistic choices about style.

After thinking about it more, I realize that my issue with regard to certain environments in DA2 having too much empty space to feel lived-in probably has more to do with the production schedule than with the art style as such, and I should have made that more clear.

I do maintain, though, that my issue with the appearance of many of the elves in DA2 is an issue with the art style, because my problem isn't with the rendering so much as with the fact that many of the elves, to my eye, have heads that look disproportionately large on bodies that look disproportionately thin, with bulging eyes and foreheads.

Although I might be wrong, I don't think that those choices were dictated by the game's engine, because the humans, dwarves and kossith don't look misproportioned to me, and they were presumably created using the same engine.

I don't bring up the appearance of DA2 elves just to be difficult – I bring it up because I believe that the DA2 elf design has a lot of potential, and I believe that by giving them slightly less exaggerated proportions, BioWare can improve on the DA2 design to create stunning elves. Of course, I fully appreciate that others might disagree.

Modifié par jillabender, 16 septembre 2012 - 12:35 .

[upsettingshorts]

Yeah, the change in how the elves look (or the dwarves are proportioned, for example) are pretty clearly a style change. As to why there aren't a ton of each of them sharing Kirkwall with a ton of humans, that's another matter.

[hoorayforicecream]

jillabender wrote...

I do maintain, though, that my issue with the appearance of many of the elves in DA2 is an issue with the art style, because my problem isn't with the rendering so much as with the fact that many of the elves, to my eye, have heads that look disproportionately large on bodies that look disproportionately thin, with bulging eyes and foreheads. Although I might be wrong, I don't think that those choices were dictated by the game's engine, because the humans, dwarves and kossith don't look misproportioned to me, and they were presumably created using the same engine.

I don't bring up the appearance of DA2 elves just to be difficult – I bring it up because I believe that the DA2 elf design has a lot of potential, and I believe that by giving them slightly less exaggerated proportions, BioWare can improve on the DA2 design to create stunning elves. Of course, I fully appreciate that others might disagree.

Here's my question, regarding the elves. Do you think that all elves in DA2 are bad looking? Or do you only think that some elves are bad looking? If they are all bad looking, then the problem is with the art style. If only some of them are bad looking, then it is not the art style itself (which is universal), but the specific implementation and execution.

It's fair to think that all elves look bad. It's an opinion, and a valid one. I look at the new elves and I like them personally, but that's also an opinion. But it isn't fair to point at specific cases of bad elves while ignoring the good ones and saying "HAW HAW DA2 SUCKS".

[bleetman]

Nyoka wrote...

whoa. Those trees and plants look nothing like the ones in my game, what location is that?

It's from mark of the assassin. The environments there are pretty great.

[thats1evildude]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Look at all the screenshots of DA2 presented in this thread. Kirkwall is almost completely empty.

That's because Kirkwall's populace tends to stick to walls and corners. Which isn't a bad thing, as you're generally running through the city with a group of four and you don't need to keep tripping over NPCs.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 16 septembre 2012 - 12:36 .

[TheBlackBaron]

Actually, I rather liked the austere, foreboding nature of Kirkwall's architecture. All massive blank walls and large weeping statues and whatnot - it set a very appropriate tone for what a city built on slavery and blood magic.

Problem is, that's practically all there was in the game (and indeed, for Kirkwall architecture was all it had, since the rest of the city was so empty). And everything else? Bleh. Did not like the new elf design, did not like the "hot rod Samurai" philosophy for weapons and armor and animation (although I will give you that the female armors were blessedly practical, and the red and white color scheme was nice), and overall, no, it isn't particularly original either. Looking different from Origins doesn't make it any more unique.

Was Origins "generic"? Sure, maybe. But for what is essentially an expy of an Anglo-Saxon England that threw off the Normans circa 1200 AD, its style suited it very well. Reminded me a bit of the movie Excalibur. And damnit, I -like- my medieval European fantasy, and when done right it looks jaw-droppingly beautiful.

I hate to be -that guy-, but Bioware, use those EA connection of yours and go get the rights to use Frostbite 2 for DA3. You've already adapted Unreal for an RPG with Mass Effect, how hard can it be?

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 16 septembre 2012 - 12:43 .

[jillabender]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

jillabender wrote...

I do maintain, though, that my issue with the appearance of many of the elves in DA2 is an issue with the art style, because my problem isn't with the rendering so much as with the fact that many of the elves, to my eye, have heads that look disproportionately large on bodies that look disproportionately thin, with bulging eyes and foreheads. Although I might be wrong, I don't think that those choices were dictated by the game's engine, because the humans, dwarves and kossith don't look misproportioned to me, and they were presumably created using the same engine.

I don't bring up the appearance of DA2 elves just to be difficult – I bring it up because I believe that the DA2 elf design has a lot of potential, and I believe that by giving them slightly less exaggerated proportions, BioWare can improve on the DA2 design to create stunning elves. Of course, I fully appreciate that others might disagree.

Here's my question, regarding the elves. Do you think that all elves in DA2 are bad looking? Or do you only think that some elves are bad looking? If they are all bad looking, then the problem is with the art style. If only some of them are bad looking, then it is not the art style itself (which is universal), but the specific implementation and execution.

It's fair to think that all elves look bad. It's an opinion, and a valid one. I look at the new elves and I like them personally, but that's also an opinion. But it isn't fair to point at specific cases of bad elves while ignoring the good ones and saying "HAW HAW DA2 SUCKS".

I liked the appearance of Merrill and Fenris, but most of the other elves look very strange to my eye. The issue I have with bulging eyes and heads that look disproportionately large isn't limited to just a few elves – it's more widespread than that.

However, I think that most of the elves would look fine to me with just a few tweaks to their proportions – I certainly wouldn't say that they flat-out "suck," and I'm sorry if I unintentionally gave that impression.

I like the screenshots I've seen of elves created using the mod that makes DA:O elves look more like DA2 elves – that's why I think that the DA2 elf designs could look much better with a bit of tweaking.

Modifié par jillabender, 16 septembre 2012 - 04:50 .

[Korusus]

Nyoka wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

whoa. Those trees and plants look nothing like the ones in my game, what location is that?

The location you had to pay more money for.  Am I the only one that thinks those NPCs look horribly out of place in that picture?  They're like plastic barbie dolls standing in a serene photorealistic painting.

[Renmiri1]

I love Marethatri, she is much prettier in DA2. Merril and Fenris, Jethan look good. A lot of them look bad though.

[bleetman]

Korusus wrote...

Am I the only one that thinks those NPCs look horribly out of place in that picture? 

Yes.