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DA2 Art Style is one of the most beautiful I have ever seen - why all the hate?


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#76
hoorayforicecream

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Wulfram wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

In this thread, many people who don't understand the difference between graphics and aesthetics.


Well, it's easier to say that this looks ugly than it is to attempt to read the developers minds as to whether the ugliness is the result of a deliberate stylistic choice or a graphical limitation.


It's actually pretty easy for me. The differences in the comparison pics between Alistair and Zevran aren't intentional, they're because of technical reasons (mostly lighting).

The main issue with Alistair was the lighting, not the face mesh.

Image IPB

In fact, there was a thread specifically apologizing for the crap that Bioware had been given for Alistair's DA2 appearance.

It might just be the developer in me talking, but without the attempt to separate the two, any meaningful feedback can easily be lost because the artists and designers will dismiss the complaints as "Oh that was just technical restrictions" even if it wasn't.

#77
Welsh Inferno

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

In this thread, many people who don't understand the difference between graphics and aesthetics.


Some may do but I dont think it matters when both the graphics & the choice in aesthetics both suck. The new look for the Darkspawn for example. Horrible aesthetic choice made even worse by bad graphics, especially on consoles.

#78
Jerrybnsn

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Wulfram wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

In this thread, many people who don't understand the difference between graphics and aesthetics.


Well, it's easier to say that this looks ugly than it is to attempt to read the developers minds as to whether the ugliness is the result of a deliberate stylistic choice or a graphical limitation.


Very well put.  Either changed the graphics that's the problem or change the artstyle itself because DAII looked worse than Origins.  The main complaints about Origins art style was how come a Bioware game wasn't using the Unreal3 Engine that Mass Effect was using.

#79
Wulfram

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Lighting isn't just a technical thing. It's also a stylistic choice. DA2 mostly eliminated the sort of subtle lighting that you can see in a lot of DA:O pictures, and I have to assume that was deliberate.

DA2 Alistair looks pretty bad in any lighting. The undetailed texture and the failure to translate his great nose do that.

#80
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Das Tentakel wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

In this thread, many people who don't understand the difference between graphics and aesthetics.


Well, it's easier to say that this looks ugly than it is to attempt to read the developers minds as to whether the ugliness is the result of a deliberate stylistic choice or a graphical limitation.


Moreover, the two are not strictly speaking distinct, certainly not from the player's POV. Graphic fidelity does impact how an aesthetic style is perceived. A realistic aesthetic style profits from high graphic fidelity; you can notice that in The Witcher I and II, both of which have a realistic aethetic, but the second game looks better because of its higher graphic fidelity. DA is a bit of a hybrid, in the sense that it combines a partly realistic (character models, some clothing, arms and armour) and partly stylized aesthetic style (architecture, some arms and armour). It may be that because of this, it is actually more vulnerable to getting things 'wrong' in the eyes of many players and viewers.
The realistic stuff 'bites' the stylized stuff and vice versa.  


Yup....

The style in DA2 was 'wrong' in the sense that somehow the realistic representation did not look good with the more stylish formed environment and armor/arms. It was not consistent and made things look out of place and not in tune with the overall 'what the eyes can see on the screen'. This has nothing to do with how you feel about how an armor f.e. looks in general, it's about the combination of styles as described above that is used.

#81
Josielyn

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Once I got a new computer ( Dell XPS 8500 ) with a nice graphics card, I really LOVED the art style with regards to the landscape. Breathtaking buildings, skies, water. The peoples' nostrils still annoy me, though. Maybe DA3 will just remove nostrils and make people breathe through their ears instead.

Modifié par Josielyn, 14 septembre 2012 - 02:11 .


#82
Lenimph

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I didn't really enjoy the overall "spikey" theme myself when it came to the weapons and arms. Kind of reminded me when I was in the 5th grade and I used to designs weapons with this boy I liked and sat next to me in class.

I did enjoy the way they designed the environments, felt they did a better job in that then DA:O, too bad they were recycled...

#83
Brockololly

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Welsh Inferno wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

In this thread, many people who don't understand the difference between graphics and aesthetics.


Some may do but I dont think it matters when both the graphics & the choice in aesthetics both suck. The new look for the Darkspawn for example. Horrible aesthetic choice made even worse by bad graphics, especially on consoles.


Agreed. On a technical level, DA2 (at least on PC) wasn't really much better than DA:O and in some respects, it looked worse than Origins, IMO. Whether its the lighting or the face mesh, characters like Alistair looked awful. Zevran looked like he had been locked up in a meth lab for 5 years. Everyone had this bizarre plastic/rubber skin look- I don't know whether thats a graphics or aesthetic issue- was that an intentional stylizing choice or just the byproduct of a mediocre lighting system?

I think thats a massive problem with DA2's look- its not obviously stylized like Prince of Persia 2008 or Borderlands, but its not going for an obviously realistic look like Skyrim or The Witcher.

In any event, you can look at a game like Dark Souls, which I think has some astounding aesthetics and art even if technically its fairly average. Yet with DA2, it has some odd aesthetic decisions (why don't elves have shoes all of a sudden? Why are they donkey people? Why does everything have more spikes than a porcupine? Why does all of the armor suddenly look like it was crafted with N64 polygons?) and underwhelming technical graphics.

#84
SpunkyMonkey

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It's been some time since I played DA:2 and, having just looked back at this vid.....


www.youtube.com/watch

...............it just seems that a DA game doesn't suit this DA:2 style at all. I don't know how to describe it really, but I look at all the artwork in that vid and think it doesn't appeal to me one bit, technically impressive and "cool" maybe, but it just looks so detached from an olde-world RPG that I don't find it appealing at all.

EDIT:

Wow, just watching it over several times and it's especially noticeable with it being spliced with DA:O just how out of place and awful the art style actually felt to me. The only way I can describe it is it's kinda like seeing Metallica wearing headsets and doing a choriagraphed ballet dance routine.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 14 septembre 2012 - 02:45 .


#85
Clover Rider

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In the game there was only like 3 or 4 elves that looked okay and not all that "donkey-like". I think I would be more okay with the elf redesign if they put some more work into it.

Modifié par Some Geth, 14 septembre 2012 - 02:40 .


#86
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StElmo wrote...
The design is incredibly consistant


That's right, it is consistent... consistent with everything except for DA:O, that is. It might be less jarring if the art style even remotely resembled what was established in DA:O - but much like everything else in DA2, very little is consistent with its forebear. It might as well be a totally separate game set in a totally separate universe.

That, Bioware, is why you fail.

Modifié par greengoron89, 14 septembre 2012 - 02:41 .


#87
Cultist

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To sum this thread:
Image IPB

#88
happy_daiz

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Honestly, DA2's art style to me was pretty blah. In terms of environment, I prefer more realism, ala Skyrim, or the complete opposite, ala Borderlands. Both of those games chose a clear direction and stuck to it.

DA2 seemed like the "safe" way to go, but it was completely forgettable, imho.

And I'm not even going to get into the lack of NPC detail, poorly-shaped appendages, etc. I think those can speak for themselves.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 17 septembre 2012 - 02:21 .


#89
coles4971

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That DA2 Emissary looks like the picture was taken in like 2004 or something.

#90
Dagr88

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First time I saw Darkspawn in DA2 I was horrified. "Poor thing... Looking at you makes me sad." Then I started killing them out of pitty, so they could morph into piles of gold... Circle of life:(

Modifié par Dagr88, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:08 .


#91
RinpocheSchnozberry

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Most arguments against DA2's art boil down BUT IT'S DIFFERENT WHY OH WHY? DA2's art is better than the bland, stale, gungy, trope-fest of DAO's art.

#92
Maria Caliban

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I liked the art style more than DA:O's, but that's about it. For RPG art styles, I'd love to see Planescape: Torment with modern graphics.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:15 .


#93
eroeru

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Maria Caliban wrote...

I liked the art style more than DA:O's, but that's about it. For RPG art styles, I'd love to see Planescape: Torment with modern graphics.


Seconded.

edit: (though would NOT claim DA:O art style to be inferior to ][)

double-edit: actually, now that I think it through, PS:T was fantastic, and I liked ideas in the aesthetic, but did not like any of the execution. It's monochrome and "gritty" gray meshed up with brown.

Modifié par eroeru, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:34 .


#94
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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Most arguments against DA2's art boil down BUT IT'S DIFFERENT WHY OH WHY? DA2's art is better than the bland, stale, gungy, trope-fest of DAO's art.


http://community.us....?v=mpbl-1&px=-1

#95
Wulfram

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Planescape Torment has always seemed spectacularly ugly to me. Which may actually have been the intent, but for me it doesn't make for an enjoyable play experience .

#96
RinpocheSchnozberry

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Wulfram wrote...

Planescape Torment has always seemed spectacularly ugly to me. Which may actually have been the intent, but for me it doesn't make for an enjoyable play experience .


PS:T was a painfully ugly game, doubly so in retrospect.  Good game, great ideas...  Ugly, ugly, ugly. 

#97
Sylvanpyxie

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To quote... Well, myself...

Sylvanpyxie wrote:
The art style is horrific though, the environment has a comical feel, which isn't helped by characters wandering around with faces crafted roughly from Play-Dough.... Player Characters included.

The landscapes are poorly rendered, a number of them looking like painted card-board backgrounds from a school play or poorly funded B-Movie. The city is lacking in depth and detail, and that causes everything to feel fairly immature and unrealistic.

Disclaimer: Normally i would be able to overlook something so far removed from realism, i mean it's a computer game i'm not expecting full realistic bull, but the problem is this city is the only thing we see for the entirety of the game. It should have felt real, it should've felt alive, it should've been more than background, it should have been a living breathing thing, bustling with life.

As it stands the city of Kirkwall has little to no impact on players who are seeing it for the first time and eventually it fades in to nothing but background - A poorly made set for an overly dramatic play. The entire concept was that the city felt like home, but after an hour of playing you barely even registered the city at all.

The interiors are somewhat better, like Viscount's Keep and the Chantry, but the Hanged Man suffers the same issues at the exterior of the city - A lack of depth and realism that makes it feel like nothing but background, completely unimpressive and easily ignored. Not a living breathing tavern full of wenches and ale and dodgy gambling, as it should be. As a result it lacks a great deal of impact and just fades away, yet another location that offers no sense of wonder, or any emotional response at all.

The characters are the worst though... Really, the Play-Dough cheeks and jaw lines just creep me out, and irritate me at the same time. No one has any real structure to their face and it's just kind of a.... A blob.... Just a blob with a nose.

Urgh.


Not everything I would like to complain about is in this quote, but these are the majority of my complaints regarding the Dragon Age 2 art style. No Origins comparisons. No comparisons to any other games. Just Dragon Age 2 itself, and the flaws that I found with it.

Not all of it is down to art-style, sure. The city would've felt a great deal more alive if NPCs were interacting with each other and the world around them, which is not a failing of the art-style.

But the biggest hindrance to me personally? It *was* the art-style. The lack of depth, instead replaced by what I could only describe as a cartoon backing set, made my first sight of the city lack any form of impact. It permanently marred my ability to connect with the city, and as a result I felt entirely disconnected from the game and the unfolding story arc.

To me personally, the art-style was a failure and, while i'm not looking for straight up gritty realism or never ending expanses of beautifully rendered landscapes, I would prefer something that had at least some semblance of realism, instead of cartoon backing sets and character facial structures roughly crafted from play-dough.

This is, of course, entirely my opinion and anyone, everyone, is welcome to disagree with it as they wish.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:29 .


#98
Cutlass Jack

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Maria Caliban wrote...

I liked the art style more than DA:O's, but that's about it. For RPG art styles, I'd love to see Planescape: Torment with modern graphics.


If it allowed for visual customization of the Nameless One, I'd be all over that.

But I'd love a Planescape game that had full character creation like the actual game its based off of even more. Was one of my favorite D&D campaign settings.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:27 .


#99
eroeru

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Wulfram wrote...

Planescape Torment has always seemed spectacularly ugly to me. Which may actually have been the intent, but for me it doesn't make for an enjoyable play experience .


But it has nice aesthetics, doesn't it?

I'm more in love with the idea of hells I think.

#100
Terraforming2154

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I liked how characters looked to a degree -- I liked the hair (and its movement) as well as the eyes, and some of the armor was quite nice as well (there was a lot more variance than there had been in DAO, especially for rogues).

But in terms of the scenery and location, I thought it was really dull and brown, with the exception of Sundermount and the Chateau haunting grounds in the DLC. Overall though I thought the scenery in DAO looked better -- richer colors and more details and appropriately gritty where needed (not saying every location needs to be gritty and dark, but some places benefit from that).

Tbh, if Bioware takes any inspiration from other games in regard to scenery/location design, I'd love them to look at Guild Wars 2 or Witcher 2  -- I think both of those games are visually stunning and manage to have bright settings that don't look so washed out and uninspired.

Modifié par Terraforming2154, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:16 .