126 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I think 'playing it safe' is a lack of innovation in a sequel. It seems to happen more often than not. You guys at BioWare haven't innovated since the original Mass Effect. You've all been playing it safe for close to five years now.

We didn't even try ONE new thing?

[Dominus]

Well that's always been an issue with sequels - Stay too close to home, and the series may be stagnating. Go too far from the original, and you risk losing fans from too many changes at once.

Modifié par DominusVita, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:20 .

[Little Princess Peach]

Bio should stick too what it knows best instead of trying out knew things...

[Little Princess Peach]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I think 'playing it safe' is a lack of innovation in a sequel. It seems to happen more often than not. You guys at BioWare haven't innovated since the original Mass Effect. You've all been playing it safe for close to five years now.

We didn't even try ONE new thing?

you guys added casper the suicidel ghost in me3 thats enough experiments for me

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I think 'playing it safe' is a lack of innovation in a sequel. It seems to happen more often than not. You guys at BioWare haven't innovated since the original Mass Effect. You've all been playing it safe for close to five years now.

We didn't even try ONE new thing?

I've been playing your games since KOTOR. So, I saw ME1 as a huge step forward with the dialogue wheel mechanic and the social dynamics between the player and NPC's. It was amazing at the time and one of the reasons I purchased a Xbox 360. That said, I honestly can't think of anything other than the paragon/renegade interrupts added in ME2.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Dominus]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The suicide mission was innovative in a way. Without delving into spoilers, it was sort of taking FF3's Kefka Tower and trying to bring a more intense direction with it.   You could view the loyalty mission's effect as an innovation. If we're talking purely mechanical, interrupt is the only one that comes to mind at the moment. A lot of what was changed in ME2 was less about additions, and more about tweaking/cleaning the original formula. 

Modifié par DominusVita, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:47 .

[King Cousland]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I think 'playing it safe' is a lack of innovation in a sequel. It seems to happen more often than not. You guys at BioWare haven't innovated since the original Mass Effect. You've all been playing it safe for close to five years now.

We didn't even try ONE new thing?

You know, I was inclined to disagree with EpicBoot2daFace at first, but now I think about it, they're right. Features that appear to be new are either carved out of other BioWare games or pinched from non-BioWare franchises. You really haven't innovated since ME. 

EDIT: Maybe the personality icons would count, but they had a mixed reception and were clearly inspired by features from other games. 

Modifié par King Cousland, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:53 .

[eroeru]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I think 'playing it safe' is a lack of innovation in a sequel. It seems to happen more often than not. You guys at BioWare haven't innovated since the original Mass Effect. You've all been playing it safe for close to five years now.

We didn't even try ONE new thing?

Nah, you tried new things. Only that you've gotten overly fond of some of the stuff in ME, so it feels you want forcing it into other differing franchises.

[King Cousland]

eroeru wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I think 'playing it safe' is a lack of innovation in a sequel. It seems to happen more often than not. You guys at BioWare haven't innovated since the original Mass Effect. You've all been playing it safe for close to five years now.

We didn't even try ONE new thing?

Nah, you tried new things. Only that you've gotten overly fond of some of the stuff in ME, so it feels you want forcing it into other differing franchises.

I couldn't agree more with this, but that doesn't make those forced features new. They're simply taken from ME. For me, a new feature is something which has never been seen before in any game or franchise, a completely original idea.

[eroeru]

eroeru wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

To toss in a hand grenade into this thread...

What type of game would you expect to get if I said we were playing it safe?

Aah, if you put it that way, I change my opinion. DA3 need not be safe, it should be daring. In that it wouldn't necessarily take anything from DA2.

But it would need to be safe in the sense that the most upset fans would be reconciliated.

Also, to reiterate.
I'd love if you went all crazy with toggle options. It would be really original and sympathy-inspiring if there were lots of features from DA2 that you can customize or simply turn off.

1. VOs

2. Paraphrases

3. Dialogue-wheel icons and positions, or rather the whole mechanic

4. Option to see, change underlying mechanics and one to not display them (as in with the relationship meter, damage etc)

Modifié par eroeru, 15 septembre 2012 - 09:16 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

ME3 and DA2 had a lot of problems. None of them had anything to do with too much innovation or the lack of it. Both games suffered because of poor judgement on the part of the game's designers.

[InfinitePaths]

Well the community wanted everything from DAO back and nothing new,Bioware did that at PAX last year,but then it got 90% dislikes with the community saying,this is everything that we already had in DAO,we want more.So i don't know what does the community wants anymore DAO or something new.IMO i want the old formula with inovatiive ideas .This is the last time i have put my trust in Bioware,i hope they won't let me down.

[Dominus]

Toggle Options are always welcome to me. Not necessarily "go crazy" with them, but it's still a good opportunity to provide for a variety of players. Take ME3's Story/Action Mode - it was controversial when it was announced, but ME3's RPG Mode still plays exactly as I always remembered it since 2007.

Modifié par DominusVita, 15 septembre 2012 - 09:06 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

King Cousland wrote...
Features that appear to be new are either carved out of other BioWare games or pinched from non-BioWare franchises. You really haven't innovated since ME. 

Umm...there's very rarely anything "new" in fiction.  If that's what you think of as innovation, then unless BioWare writes trippy as hell post-modernist acid trip stream of consciousness game, you're not gonna get it.  (Though I would be curious to see how that would turn out )

Just about everything in storytelling is rehashed, recycled, and redressed a million times.  Game mechanics, though more flexible to new ideas, are often the same way.  I personally thought DA2's narrative structure and focus on how the world impacts the individual (rather than the other way around) was a pretty good step for BioWare, and a significant departure from a lot of their games.  It was certainly interesting, even if the implementation was patchy.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 15 septembre 2012 - 09:11 .

[astreqwerty]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

That's fine. I was mostly just having fun because I think one could make an argument that making a game more in the mold of DAO or DA2 could be construed as a safe move

try making a game more in the mold of da2 and let us laugh ( or cry) with the results

[eroeru]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

ME3 and DA2 had a lot of problems. None of them had anything to do with too much innovation or the lack of it. Both games suffered because of poor judgement on the part of the game's designers.

This.

Though it could have something to do with the devs thinking they're real innovational and stuff. When in actuality they were just rash.

Modifié par eroeru, 15 septembre 2012 - 10:06 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

King Cousland wrote...
Features that appear to be new are either carved out of other BioWare games or pinched from non-BioWare franchises. You really haven't innovated since ME. 

Umm...there's very rarely anything "new" in fiction.  If that's what you think of as innovation, then unless BioWare writes trippy as hell post-modernist acid trip stream of consciousness game, you're not gonna get it.  (Though I would be curious to see how that would turn out )

Just about everything in storytelling is rehashed, recycled, and redressed a million times.  Game mechanics, though more flexible to new ideas, are often the same way.  I personally thought DA2's narrative structure and focus on how the world impacts the individual (rather than the other way around) was a pretty good step for BioWare, and a significant departure from a lot of their games.  It was certainly interesting, even if the implementation was patchy.

Yes, but the innovative games stand out even if they are more rare. Assasins's Creed, Gears of War, Mirror's Edge, Portal, Heavy Rain, LBP, etc...

Despite the general consensus, innovation is alive and well in the game industry. It just doesn't include BioWare, unfortunately.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 15 septembre 2012 - 09:23 .

[King Cousland]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

King Cousland wrote...
Features that appear to be new are either carved out of other BioWare games or pinched from non-BioWare franchises. You really haven't innovated since ME. 

Umm...there's very rarely anything "new" in fiction.  If that's what you think of as innovation, then unless BioWare writes trippy as hell post-modernist acid trip stream of consciousness game, you're not gonna get it.  (Though I would be curious to see how that would turn out )

Just about everything in storytelling is rehashed, recycled, and redressed a million times.  Game mechanics, though more flexible to new ideas, are often the same way.  I personally thought DA2's narrative structure and focus on how the world impacts the individual (rather than the other way around) was a pretty good step for BioWare, and a significant departure from a lot of their games.  It was certainly interesting, even if the implementation was patchy.

I'm not talking about narrative innovation. 

[SirGladiator]

I think there was a lot of positive new stuff in ME2 and ME3, but not so much in DA2. I really liked how in ME2 the whole game led up to one glorious final battle, that you could only win with your whole party in-tact, if you really played the game well up to that point. If you took shortcuts, skipped important stuff, etc. you could still accomplish your final objective, but some of your favorite characters could easily die in the end, which gave you tremendous incentive to really pay attention and do things right, so you could get that happy ending. Of course ME3 didnt even HAVE a happy ending originally, it was just 'which depressing ending would you prefer?', but I really enjoyed the multi-player aspect of the game, as well as the general 'army-gathering' aspect, etc. and how they improved the planet-scanning thing, making it more fun and cool.

DA2 didn't really improve things much over the original, the crafting system is one of a handful of things that were done better, easy to name off a bunch of things that were worse, but I'd rather stick to the positive. They made the Isabella romance a bit of a challenge, romances are almost always WAY too easy these days, nice to finally have to work a bit for one. The whole 'time skip' thing was quite innovative, and had all kinds of potential, but there just wasn't remotely enough variation in what could happen to make it meaningful. Its not like Hawke can get rich or stay poor, save her family or not save her family, etc. the really big things are pretty much set in stone, you mostly just watch them play out instead of having your choices make the difference.

So for DA3 should it be safe or risky? I dont think theres any way to be 'safe', its all risky to some degree, innovation is important, the key is simply to do it right. From what Ive read so far, it sounds like they're headed in the right direction. Change is good, so long as its good change, and I think while DA2 really wasn't, DA3 will be.

[Sable Rhapsody]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
Yes, but the innovative games stand out even if they are more rare. Assasins's Creed, Gears of War, Mirror's Edge, Portal, Heavy Rain, LBP, etc...

Despite the general consensus, innovation is alive and well in the game industry. It just doesn't include BioWare, unfortunately.

King Cousland wrote...
I'm not talking about narrative innovation. 

 

Sorry, I misunderstood.  When it comes to gameplay mechanics, I 100% agree.  The dialogue wheel and interrupts were a little bit of a departure from the usual, but BioWare's mechanics are pretty damn stock.  So the question is this: how do you bring innovative mechanics to a dialogue wheel, stat and skill points based, D&D-style RPG?

One way would be through making more of the choices come through what you do rather than what you say.  In sandbox games, NPCs have no plot armor.  You kill a quest giver, tough luck.  I know it's not new in the games industry, but it'd be a refreshing change for BioWare.  Another way would be to seriously enforce the mechanics in the roleplay; no more running around as a blood mage with no consequences.  There's an old fan mod for an NPC named Valen in Baldur's Gate 2 that does this to a terrifying extent.  She's a vampire, and plays just like one--cripplingly weak in the daylight, murderous at night, chaotic evil, unable to go into temples or guard stations without everyone turning hostile.  Inconvenient, yes, but it was a brilliant way to roleplay through gameplay rather than dialogue.  

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 15 septembre 2012 - 09:57 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

To toss in a hand grenade into this thread...

What type of game would you expect to get if I said we were playing it safe?

I think 'playing it safe' is a lack of innovation in a sequel. It seems to happen more often than not. You guys at BioWare haven't innovated since the original Mass Effect. You've all been playing it safe for close to five years now.

What? Bioware sequels have CONSTANTLY been changing core aspects. Whether or not those changes are good is arguable, but you can't say they've been resting on their laurels.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

To toss in a hand grenade into this thread...

What type of game would you expect to get if I said we were playing it safe?

I think 'playing it safe' is a lack of innovation in a sequel. It seems to happen more often than not. You guys at BioWare haven't innovated since the original Mass Effect. You've all been playing it safe for close to five years now.

What? Bioware sequels have CONSTANTLY been changing core aspects. Whether or not those changes are good is arguable, but you can't say they've been resting on their laurels.

Yes, I can. All the evidence is in my favor. The most significant change they've made in the past five years has been the framed narrative featured in DA2.

[Allan Schumacher]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Yes, I can. All the evidence is in my favor. The most significant change they've made in the past five years has been the framed narrative featured in DA2.

Are you only considering things that you feel are novel when compared to the entire game industry?

I'm not entirely sure what you're qualifying as "significant."

[ianvillan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Yes, I can. All the evidence is in my favor. The most significant change they've made in the past five years has been the framed narrative featured in DA2.

Are you only considering things that you feel are novel when compared to the entire game industry?

I'm not entirely sure what you're qualifying as "significant."

To me Bioware do innovate for every new release they put out, now whether you believe it was the right innovation or it was neccessary for the game is something else, but you can't say that Bioware does not innovate or that they dont make any changes to there games.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Yes, I can. All the evidence is in my favor. The most significant change they've made in the past five years has been the framed narrative featured in DA2.

Are you only considering things that you feel are novel when compared to the entire game industry?

I'm not entirely sure what you're qualifying as "significant."

No. I'm considering things that are new for BioWare's games, not so much the industry as a whole. It may also include things that haven't been seen previously in other games, but I would never expect BioWare to make a game like Mirror's Edge or Heavy Rain. I would never turn it into a rule and say you must do this or that in order for me to be interested in the product.

What I qualify as 'significant' would be something that alters a core concept for a game or introducing something never before seen for that particular genre or game franchise. I would say the theater mode for Halo 3 is a great example of the latter. The dialogue wheel and social exchange between the player and NPC's were both significant changes to the core concepts of BioWare's previous games and have been established as the standard now going forward.

I consider the framed narrative of DA2 to be a significant change for the story-telling concept side of things. It doesn't have quite the impact that the dialoge wheel has had, but I think it was a good move. Others may disagree, but I think it was important to break off from that familiar road that BioWare had traveled for so long.