1774 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

Or MAYBE I dislike Bioware and just love games like Witcher 2, Deus Ex: HR and Alpha Protocol. Maybe because I would want Obsidian to make another game like AP in terms of story and in that I include voiced protagonist and NPCs, cinematics and graphics.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

Voice Acting - in RPGs poll

http://social.biowar...07/polls/39461/

I don't consider DAO VO to be in same catagory as ME.

ME and DA2 for example are fully voiced. DAO is not, I would put DAO in the other catagory above it.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[Costin_Razvan]

That and add in Alpha Protocol and Witcher 2 on that fully voiced list. Even TW1.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
Not every game needs VO to be wanted by people, if that one element is only reason you want something then maybe it's not going to be the game for you but I don't see why Costin or anyone else would think every game needs to be made to their specifications or try to convince others to change their minds on what they like and why they are funding it. Don't want it then don't fund it, don't buy it and just buy or fund something else more to your tastes.

Because Costin and I gave the impression that we are here to change your minds?
I most certainly am not, I am simply expressing a worry, considering that I love Obsidian and their games and would have preferred them to do something like Alpha Protocol. But I still expressed interest in the project, just not as much interest as I could have given.

So I don't see why you are trying to play moderator here. We are perfectly free to express our opinions as long as it's civil, and I know that both Costin and I at least are Obsidian fans. If you feel we are doing something wrong, simply report. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:12 .

[MerinTB]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Wow, uhm, it does NOT end in the exact same way.  You can side with effectively 4 factions (if you count siding with no-one) which gives you distinctly different endings.

An endgame choice does not constitute, to me, reactivity. Otherwise Bioware games would be very reactive when they are not.
Now granted, some endgame choices are blocked depending on one choice before, but it's no where near the accumulation of choices in AP that opens different endings. In AP, it was several choices made along the road. Not the case in Vampires. To side with the Anarchs, you only need to tell them you're Anarch. To side with LaCroix, just be respectful. To side with Max, don't tell his secret....etc. Which doesn't change anything except the ending anyways, as you are still forced to work for LaCroix and everything plays out the exact same way other than the ending.

Also, having a different haven, which is useless anyways in-game, does not constitue a major feat in reactivity.
What I am focused on is story, and Vampires is not as reactive as AP. Doesn't come close to TW2 either.

Again, it comes down to metrics.  I read what you write, but it might as well be in Greek for all that I'm understanding it.  I comprehend the sentences, but the belief behind them boggles.

Alpha Protocol you will go to the same locations and do the same missions and end up the game sailing away on the same boat.  Every.  Time.  (Save one ending, not counting "dying" and not finishing the game.)  The order you do them in is different.

And while you can kill or get aide from, say, Surkov - you can also decide Therese / Jeanette's fate on a much deeper way.  While your end fight in AP can be one of two people, or both, the same can be said of Bloodlines.  Is Mina alive at the end of the game?  Is Nines?

You have little choice on who Thorton is, but AP does throw you bones like if you are the Technician then mentions will be made in dialog about your past and programs you wrote and you can help Mina with Tech.  Small details, yes, but each one adds to the game and make if feel like that creation choice you made matters.  Same with being, say, a Treme and having the different haven, different missions and dialog from Straus, as compared to being, say, a Toreador and being able to seduce characters in the story (story seduce, not blood-suck seduce, but I'd argue that, too)

Because you hold one thing in value above another doesn't make your opinion more valid.  You say the havens don't matter to the story - I say they absolutely show who you are and your place in the world.  You say the endings for Bloodlines, despite being vastly different outcomes don't compare to the excessively similar endings of Alpha Protocol that you only get the "differences" from the patchworked news report at the end.

I hate cutting down AP's choice like that - it is great, much higher than the majority of games.  But there are games, like Bloodlines (and Blade Runner and Wasteland and others) that do the same thing.  Shorter games, or games with fewer NPCs, or smaller worlds, don't mean they are less reactive.  A well written 60,000 word novel is not less well written than a 150,000 word novel because of the number of words, and a story with four characters doesn't have worse characte development than one with seven characters only because of having less characters.

KnightofPhoenix wrote... 

Play a gangrel, a brujah, a nosferatu, and a malkavian and tell me it's the same game.  Do you talk your way through, fight your way through, stealth your way...

Gameplay changes only, the story doesn't react to you playing stealth or massacring everything.

Uhm, the game DOES react to you being bloody or quiet.  At least as much as AP... I've done the mercy-play of AP and the "kill everything in sight" play of AP and, guess what, the endings are still the same regardless of those decisions, and the same missions come up, and you can have the exact same relationships with everyone in the game despite going to either of those extremes.  Trying being a Nosferatu in Bloodlines and NOT use the sewers and say the game world treats you the same as a Ventrue.

Again - you're not proving one game is more reactive than another.  You are only proving your BIASES in what you consider IMPORTANT REACTIONS.

That works for YOU.  But you can't present that as fact.

So Bloodlines and all its differences were meaningless to you - those differences are still there.  Exploding, being sunk to the bottom of the ocean, paling around with Nines, or driving off on your own with Cain are not enough difference for you - but killing Westridge as opposed to Leland, or driving away on a boat with Scarlett instead of Mina, are big differences.  That's your call on what you consider big, I guess.

Modifié par MerinTB, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:19 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Or MAYBE I dislike Bioware and just love games like Witcher 2, Deus Ex: HR and Alpha Protocol. Maybe because I would want Obsidian to make another game like AP in terms of story and in that I include voiced protagonist and NPCs, cinematics and graphics.

Well this probably is not the game for you then. You are not going to be able to change the people's minds who are funding it though. We are funding it because it sounds like a game we want. If we wanted the same as you we probably would not be funding it. There are other games that are more inline with what you want, this is more inline with what we want.

Such is life. Sorry but I do not see why you would be here trying to change our minds about what we want to fund. It's fine if it is not what you want and you do not want to fund it but it is kind of a dead end stance since they are not making a game you want, they are making a game we want. Maybe there will be a game on kickstarter or from CDPR or others you want instead, but this one is with our interests in mind.

[chunkyman]

Will they list stretch goals, or is extra money simply being added to the various departments to improve the game's overall quality? I ask because I want to know if they will make it for Mac if they hit X amount of dollars.

[Dragoonlordz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...
Not every game needs VO to be wanted by people, if that one element is only reason you want something then maybe it's not going to be the game for you but I don't see why Costin or anyone else would think every game needs to be made to their specifications or try to convince others to change their minds on what they like and why they are funding it. Don't want it then don't fund it, don't buy it and just buy or fund something else more to your tastes.

Because Costin and I gave the impression that we are here to change your minds?
I most certainly am not, I am simply expressing a worry, considering that I love Obsidian and their games and would have preferred them to do something like Alpha Protocol. But I still expressed interest in the project, just not as much interest as I could have given.

So I don't see why you are trying to play moderator here. We are perfectly free to express our opinions as long as it's civil, and I know that both Costin and I at least are Obsidian fans. If you feel we are doing something wrong, simply report. 

Because I find it kind of redundant. AP sequel is not one they are asking for money to make. Maybe the next game they make will be such but this game is for those of us who want more akin to BG, ID and PS:T type title. That is what we are funding. If they chose to go kickstarter way for a AP sequel after this one, maybe we will help fund that too but it is not what they are making right now currently.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:20 .

[Jozape]

chunkyman wrote...

Will they list stretch goals, or is extra money simply being added to the various departments to improve the game's overall quality? I ask because I want to know if they will make it for Mac if they hit X amount of dollars.

Stretch goals are coming soon, according to Obsidian's twitter.

[Dragoonlordz]

chunkyman wrote...

Will they list stretch goals, or is extra money simply being added to the various departments to improve the game's overall quality? I ask because I want to know if they will make it for Mac if they hit X amount of dollars.

They will probably add the stretch goals after hits the target, until that time I think can leave suggestion on their forum. I think there is a thread about such. As of right now though I do not know what stretch goals will have yet.

[Costin_Razvan]

Keep talking about how much I am wasting my time and should stfu, maybe I will care one day.

Alpha Protocol you will go to the same locations and do the same missions and end up the game sailing away on the same boat. Every. Time. (Save one ending, not counting "dying" and not finishing the game.) The order you do them in is different.

It's not about ending up in the same location, it's how things change with the characters and the world, yes world, all over. It's not shown rather told by the characters and news reports that things have changed depending on your actions.

That's how AP works. The choices aren't reflected in some scenery but rather in how people act towards you, how they view you, how Thorton himself changes his responses depending on the choices you've made and so on and Thorton's viewpoints on situations and how characters REACT to these viewpoints and who will be your ally and who will be your foe throughout the game and the end. 

Think of a choice like executing Albatross in Braiko's mansion and how the game plays out if you do and if you don't. Then think how the game works if you ally him or not, if he respects you or despises you, how he views your actions and so on.

Then think of Mina, how she can come to love Thorton or respect him or absolutely despise him to the point that she is tied to a bomb that is going to explode and refuses to be saved by Thorton because of how much she hates him. Or how it feels like to execute a Mina Thorton fell in love with after you joined Halbech.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:28 .

[termokanden]

For what it's worth, I think it's completely fair to say that you had hoped for something else from Obsidian. It's a general thread about Project Eternity after all, you don't HAVE to support it.

[Lord_Valandil]

Thanks for answering me, I think I'll give it a try someday. Too many games, so little time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MerinTB wrote...
And while you can kill or get aide from, say, Surkov - you can also decide Therese / Jeanette's fate on a much deeper way.  While your end fight in AP can be one of two people, or both, the same can be said of Bloodlines.  Is Mina alive at the end of the game?  Is Nines?

Nines is always alive, you just don't find out about it unless you're Anarch or independent.

As for Surkov. Making him an ally boosts your Michael Inc. ending, and serves to ruin Alan Parker's plan and increase influence. It's something that is at least mentionned at the end. What happens to Jeanette is irrelevent, she is not even mentionned after you deal with her.

Because you hold one thing in value above another doesn't make your opinion more valid.  You say the havens don't matter to the story - I say they absolutely show who you are and your place in the world.  You say the endings for Bloodlines, despite being vastly different outcomes don't compare to the excessively similar endings of Alpha Protocol that you only get the "differences" from the patchworked news report at the end.

Except they are not similar endings. Other than pro or anti-Hallbech, the former only being unlocked after an accumulation of choices and not just one, there's also betraying Leland and forming your own network which also is unlocked depending on several choices and it gets better and better the more correct choices you did.
Not to mention Scarlet, Omen Deng, G22, al-Samad, Marburg...etc and what you can do to them in the ending (removing Marburg completely from the fight by knowing his history and having positive influence, for instance. Turning Scarlet against Leland, turn Parker against Leland by telling him about Madison if you found out in the first place...etc).

Also small consequences that put together, make for very different endings. And this is not counting the dialogue changes that surpass Vampires.

Uhm, the game DOES react to you being bloody or quiet.  At least as much as AP... I've done the mercy-play of AP and the "kill everything in sight" play of AP and, guess what, the endings are still the same regardless of those decisions, and the same missions come up, and you can have the exact same relationships with everyone in the game despite going to either of those extremes.  Trying being a Nosferatu in Bloodlines and NOT use the sewers and say the game world treats you the same as a Ventrue.

The Nosferatu ends up being in the exact same story.

As for AP's stealth, it does affect the story. Influence can be won or lost with Leland regarding even seemingly trivial choices like killing a security guard (also the case with Mina). Influence with Leland changes the ending. The Embassy mission in Moscow can change quite a bit depending on who you sided with and how you treated Igor forgot his name (if you were an ****, the embassy knows you're coming). The attack on Brayko also changes depending on who you sided with. Even things like starting in Taiwan without meeting Steven Heck first,can ****** him off....etc.

All small consequences that when put together, show a lot of reactivity.
Vampires certainly did not react to my stealthy Ventrue, the only one I remember who told me I did a good job being quiet was VV and her being pleased with me or not is irrelevent, she is not seen again.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:33 .

[Cimeas]

 BY FAR the best thing about this new game is that Sylvius can maybe (please dear god) finally shut up about no-one making games for him anymore.   (I'm just joking, I know he'll stay, and the debate can occasionally be fun to read)

[Costin_Razvan]

Michael Inc. ending,

I laughed out loud at this. Epic.

termokanden : "I like this human. He understands!"

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:38 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Just 40k off target left to go. :3

[Cyberarmy]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Andrew PG ‏@2house2fly

Haha, suggested Obsidian stretch goals: '1.5 Million: We'll write in romances.' '2 million: We won't let Chris Avellone write the romances'
Retweeted by Chris Avellone

This is pure gold.
 Moar tweets;

https://twitter.com/...0765696/photo/1

https://twitter.com/...6418560/photo/1

[Yrkoon]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Ok, I've donated.
Hope the story is good.

Safe bet that it will be.  Never played a game written by Chris Avellone that didn't contain a fantastic story.


Edit: getting close to the 24 hour mark.  But we're also getting close to the 1.1 million goal.  It's gonna be a photo finish for the bragging rights.  Can they do $37,000 in 54 minutes?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:06 .

[Jozape]

It's been over 24 hours already. The KickStarter launched 26 hours ago.

We did get a million in less than that time and will easily reach the funding goal today. Weekends are slow for KickStarter though so I wouldn't expect a lot of money to flow in. It'll pick up again on Monday.

[Savber100]

My gosh... all that name-bombing

ChrisAvellone.PlanescapeTorment.TimCain.Arcanum.KnightsoftheOldRepublic2.


WHERE THE HELL IS MY WALLET?

[MerinTB]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Keep talking about how much I am wasting my time and should stfu, maybe I will care one day.

Find me where I say to you, even indirectly, that you are "wasting your time" and that you "should stfu."

Find me those lines where I say that, and I won't call your argument a straw man.

Alpha Protocol you will go to the same locations and do the same missions and end up the game sailing away on the same boat. Every. Time. (Save one ending, not counting "dying" and not finishing the game.) The order you do them in is different.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
It's not about ending up in the same location, it's how things change with the characters and the world, yes world, all over. It's not shown rather told by the characters and news reports that things have changed depending on your actions.

So the Kue-Jin taking over, the Camarilla completeing their retaking of Los Angeles, or the Anarchs regaining freedom for their city are not big enough events?

This game is MORE reactive in endings than AP in many ways - it gives, as a legitimate option for your character, that you are either just trying to get by or out only for yourself - and therefore, at the end, you can strike off on your own and not side with anyone.  Or you can "win the game" and still have your character lose, in several endings.

Where AP's "endings" might be more reactive is in nuance, not substance.  Every "win" ending sees the AP facilities destroyed and Thorton "successful."  It comes down to which woman do you leave with, if any, and who did you face off against for the final battle.

Again, I think AP is amazing.  I just believe you are selling Bloodlines ridiculously short - and I don't understand why.  It was a SMALLER game, with FEWER areas and FEWER major PC's.  The percentage amount of reactivity, if you will, or the amount of reactivity for the amount of gameplay, for Bloodlines is more or less the same as AP.

There's just MORE to AP, because the game has more content overall.

But a sticking point here that I've been avoiding is that, for me, making your own character and controlling who and what that character is from the start is the BIGGEST reactivity a game and the games story can give me.

AP = Michael Thorton.
V:TM - B = Create your own vampire from several clans, choose your gender, basically creating much more of "your place in the world."

Now why this probably doesn't matter to either of you arguing with me probably comes down to the same reason I feel both of you are arguing that cinematics and voice acting matter so much - a lot of the "your own character" stuff is largely in your head, wherease the cinematics and voice are on the screen / speakers.  You place greater emphasis on what is created for and given to you, and I place greater importance on how much the game allows for me to fill in the blanks and imagine the off-camera action.

That's how AP works. The choices aren't reflected in some scenery but rather in how people act towards you, how they view you, how Thorton himself changes his responses depending on the choices you've made and so on and Thorton's viewpoints on situations and how characters REACT to these viewpoints and who will be your ally and who will be your foe throughout the game and the end.

This is the same in Bloodlines.  How you treat people, who you are, and choices you make in the game affect how people react to you.  Same thing.

Is the Gargoyle your ally?  Do you save Heather?  And other such choices.

Does Alpha Protocol have MORE choices?  Yes.  Does having more make it more reactive?  Again, does having 8 well written characters mean a novel has better characterization than one with 3 well written characters?

Modifié par MerinTB, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:12 .

[Yrkoon]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...
Tim Cain practically made Fallout all by himself; I can't imagine what he and Chris Avellone can accomplish together. 
 

^interesting that you'd mention this.  About 10 years ago, on the old boards,  someone did a "what if" thread and brought up this very point.

A game where we see Tim Cain and Chris Avellone closely collaborating together would be....  Planescape Torment with decent combat.  The world is probably not prepared for something like that, nor is mankind worthy.