1774 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyberarmy]

Yrkoon wrote...


A game where we see Tim Cain and Chris Avellone closely collaborating together would be....  Planescape Torment with decent combat.  The world is probably not prepared for something like that, nor is mankind worthy.

THE END IS NIGH!
And i can die as a happy man.(after played this of course)

[bussinrounds]

  I would have thought Tim Cain being a big TB guy would have talked some sense ito them, but since it's gonna be RtwP, it would be nice to have the option of slowing down the combat speed, so I can tell wtf is actually going on and not just see a blur of flashing lights streaking across the screen.

Also good pathfinding has always been a big problem in RtwP games, as you constantly have to babysit characters to keep them from doing dumb ass sh*t.

And having proper zones of control so positioning becomes more important and combat doesn't evolve into clusterfuc*s and kiting exercises.

Modifié par bussinrounds, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:22 .

[Nameless one7]

Yrkoon wrote...

A game where we see Tim Cain and Chris Avellone closely collaborating together would be....  Planescape Torment with decent combat.  The world is probably not prepared for something like that, nor is mankind worthy.

Am I the only person who thought Torment's combat was fun?  

[Costin_Razvan]

Find me those lines where I say that, and I won't call your argument a straw man.

I was referring to Dragonlordz.

As for everything else, I haven't played Bloodlines so I'll leave Knight to argue with you on that, but in regards to creating your own character vs Thorton which is created by Avellone and his team.

The reason I find Thorton vastly superior is because his emotions, personality, beliefs and so on are all determined by Avellone, yes you do have a list of options in terms of emotions presented but Avellone created that list whereas with an imaginary character these things are in your. Ultimately neither you or I can really compare our ability to create characters to the ability Avellone has, thus Thorton is vastly superior as a character because he was fully created by the writters.

Of course there is that emotional attachment to something you created yourself from scratch, but that doesn't make the protagonist good.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:28 .

[MerinTB]

I'm done with Bloodlines for now.

So, anyone else echo this sentiment - Obsidian is the new BioWare

disclosure - In Genre's my website

[Joy Divison]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I most certainly am not, I am simply expressing a worry, considering that I love Obsidian and their games and would have preferred them to do something like Alpha Protocol. But I still expressed interest in the project, just not as much interest as I could have given.

So I don't see why you are trying to play moderator here. We are perfectly free to express our opinions as long as it's civil, and I know that both Costin and I at least are Obsidian fans. If you feel we are doing something wrong, simply report. 

Maybe I am confused about what Kickstarter is.

Isn't the point of pledging money so it is we who want this type of game is devoting the capital for Obsidian to make it as opposed to Obsidian investing its finite resources to do so?  If that is the theory behind Kickstarter, I'm not sure I understand the objection or even worry for a studio responding to its fans who are putting their money where the mouths are.

A company is testing the waters for a particular project.  People are responding to that initiative.  You want Obsidian to torpedo a project that is funded by the very fans who will buy the game?  What's the point of formally objecting or expressing a worry?

[MerinTB]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Find me those lines where I say that, and I won't call your argument a straw man.

I was referring to Dragonlordz.

My apologies - arguing with seemingly two people are once can get quite confusing.

As for everything else, I haven't played Bloodlines so I'll leave to argue with you on that, but in regards to creating your own character vs Thorton which is created by Avellone and his team.

The reason I find Thorton vastly superior is because his emotions, personality, beliefs and so on are all determined by Avellone, yes you do have a list of options presented by Avellone created that list whereas with an imaginary character these things are in your. Ultimately neither you or I can really compare our ability to create stories to the ability Avellone has, thus Thorton is vastly superior as a character.

Well, I won't judge myself versus Avellone (who should judge their own talent versus others, and how do you really compare such a thing objectively anyway?) - but I do write, and if I do say so myself I think I do characters quite well.

As far as games though and my own enjoyment - I'll take my character from Fallout 3 or New Vegas over any Shepard or Thorton, and I'll take my party from Icewind Dale over any combination of premades from BG2.  That's my preference.

Again, it's opinion and shows biases.  In a role-playing game, my own created character that I have more control over will always be superior, for me, than ANYTHING any other writer or game developer could come up with.

[eroeru]

MerinTB wrote...

I'm done with Bloodlines for now.

So, anyone else echo this sentiment - Obsidian is the new BioWare

disclosure - In Genre's my website

I concur yet that doesn't stop the shirt from looking ugly.

[MichaelStuart]

Question: how much will this game cost to buy?

[MerinTB]

eroeru wrote...
I concur yet that doesn't stop the shirt from looking ugly.

Font or background?

[Jozape]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Question: how much will this game cost to buy?

Not the KickStarter, but when the game is released? At least 30 USD.

[Xeyska]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Question: how much will this game cost to buy?

$25, $20 if you snag it early on the Kickstarter.

[Dragoonlordz]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Question: how much will this game cost to buy?

Your paying for a copy when it's made when you pledge.  Depending on how much you pledge. Think of it a bit like pre-ordering only your pledge is paying for the game to be made, those pledge rewards listed on side and in post are what you get for how much you spend. Only different between pre-order and pledges here is pledges are paying for it's development and the more pledges they get the better the game they can make.

For example pledging $20+ gets you digital copy and get more things the more you spend. You don't pay anything unless project hits target which in this case is 1.1million and you don't pay the amount you pledged until the time ends which in this case is 31 days from now.

Put it this way if you pledge $20 right now (for the early backer price) you will pay in 31 days that amount and when the game is finished you get the game free since you already paid for it with your pledge.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:38 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Again, it's opinion and shows biases. In a role-playing game, my own created character that I have more control over will always be superior, for me, than ANYTHING any other writer or game developer could come up with.

But that's not an objective pov on the subject. Objectively there is no doubt Avellone created a better character.

[Yrkoon]

Nameless one7 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

A game where we see Tim Cain and Chris Avellone closely collaborating together would be....  Planescape Torment with decent combat.  The world is probably not prepared for something like that, nor is mankind worthy.

Am I the only person who thought Torment's combat was fun?  

I think so, yes

It was a jumbled mess.   Not even Platter could fix it with his awesome  Archery and Armor Mods.    It was so one dimensional that the most complex tactic avaliable is to have Morte activate his Litany of curses and then have everyone else flail   away at the distracted enemy.   every single  encounter in the game could be won by doing this.   In one playthrough I think I got up to level 20 in Sigil (the hive) simply using that tactic against every Abishai I came across.


Thankfully, Torment was  so NOT about combat at all.  It was a game where  with the right amount of wisdom/Intelligence, you could convince someone  in dialogue that they don't exist, and they'll  cease to be.  It was a game where you could pick-pocket a BOSS's bandages, then confront him with this fact, and he'll surrender.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:58 .

[MerinTB]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Again, it's opinion and shows biases. In a role-playing game, my own created character that I have more control over will always be superior, for me, than ANYTHING any other writer or game developer could come up with.

But that's not an objective pov on the subject. Objectively there is no doubt Avellone created a better character.

I do not even understand how you can say this?  How can you say this is an objective way to judge whether a character person A made was better than a character person B made?

Unless you are measuring some kind of statistics (A's had 10 strength, B's has 9, so A's is "superior") OR you put a talented-established-adult writer against a talentless-inexperienced-immature writer, you are, AGAIN, relying on taste.

Which is the better vampire character - Edward, Angel, Lestat or Dracula?  You will find plenty of people to defend each options as "the best" but, short of whether they agree with your own opinion or no, how can you choose which one is right?

Answer - you can't.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Again, it's opinion and shows biases. In a role-playing game, my own created character that I have more control over will always be superior, for me, than ANYTHING any other writer or game developer could come up with.

But that's not an objective pov on the subject. Objectively there is no doubt Avellone created a better character.

A first person protagonist is still shaped by the game world they exist in and the dialogue choices they're given to respond to it.  It takes a skillful writer to do it well, and I'm one of those for whom even the best third person PCs aren't very memorable or replayable.  Cinematics also are enjoyable if done well but don't mean much to me, they're as forgettable as a movie.  I don't sit around and ponder movies for weeks like I do with a book.  So having game makers pour huge resources into making them is a waste as far as I'm concerned.  I'd rather see more of Chris Avellone and Josh Sawyer's writing and less awkward pixel animation, given the choice.

Without the kickstarter projects, I wouldn't have had a choice.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:43 .

[MichaelStuart]

I asked for no reward.
Wouldn't feel right to ask for one, when there asking for money.

Modifié par MichaelStuart, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:49 .

[Nameless one7]

Yrkoon wrote...

Nameless one7 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

A game where we see Tim Cain and Chris Avellone closely collaborating together would be....  Planescape Torment with decent combat.  The world is probably not prepared for something like that, nor is mankind worthy.

Am I the only person who thought Torment's combat was fun?  

I think so, yes

I was a jumbled mess.   Not even Platter could fix it with his awesome  Archery and Armor Mods.    It was so one dimensional that the most complex tactic avaliable is to have Morte activate his Litany of curses and then have everyone else flail   away at the distracted enemy.   every single  encounter in the game could be won by doing this.   In one playthrough I think I got up to level 20 in Sigil (the hive) simply using that tactic against every Abishai I came across.


Thankfully, Torment was  so NOT about combat at all.  It was a game where  with the right amount of wisdom/Intelligence, you could convince someone  in dialogue that they don't exist, and they'll  cease to be.  It was a game where you could pick-pocket a BOSS's bandages, then confront him with this fact, and he'll surrender.

You don't have to do that, I remember soloing the second half of the game with the nameless one.

[Nameless one7]

Less than 20k to hit their goal.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MerinTB wrote...
So the Kue-Jin taking over, the Camarilla completeing their retaking of Los Angeles, or the Anarchs regaining freedom for their city are not big enough events?

Actually it's never really shown that any faction wins. LaCroix is defeated no matter what, which means that Strauss will most likely take over the Camarilla anyways. The faction that is either destroyed or not is the Kue-Jin.
Siding with the Anarchs does not necessarily signify they take over LA.

And seeing how the hwole point of the scheme is to weaken all factions, that's fine by me I do not mind that.

This game is MORE reactive in endings than AP in many ways - it gives, as a legitimate option for your character, that you are either just trying to get by or out only for yourself - and therefore, at the end, you can strike off on your own and not side with anyone.  Or you can "win the game" and still have your character lose, in several endings.

Where AP's "endings" might be more reactive is in nuance, not substance.  Every "win" ending sees the AP facilities destroyed and Thorton "successful."  It comes down to which woman do you leave with, if any, and who did you face off against for the final battle.

And Bloodlines has to end with LaCroix dying and Jack more or less succesful.
AP gives you the option to strike on your own and even build your own underground empire, in addition to staying loyal to the US or being Leland's right hand man. It's not only about what woman you leave with and what boss you kill at all.

But a sticking point here that I've been avoiding is that, for me, making your own character and controlling who and what that character is from the start is the BIGGEST reactivity a game and the games story can give me.

That's not reactivity. That's freedom to headcanon and fill in the blanks. The game doens't react to your choices in the same way as AP.

Stuff like playing stealthily in Italy earns Leland and Marburg's approval, which affects the story, and playing like a maniac does not impress them, also affecting the story.  Allying with G22 means unlocking weapons in the market, support and even G22 agents aiding you in Taipei. Same with the Triad. Then you have Steven heck also unlocking weapons for you to buy, and better weapons for yoru allies and even having him machine gunning people while in a subway train on the move.

That never happened in Vampires, except the Japanese girl should you aid her, who shows up for a bit at the end and helps you.

This is the same in Bloodlines.  How you treat people, who you are, and choices you make in the game affect how people react to you.  Same thing.

React only with dialogue. In AP, they react with influence and choices unlocking or improving, in addition to gameplay changing (Al-Samad can provide support in Italy if you spare Shaheed, for instance. Being nice with Igor means the mebassy is not guarded by US marines...etc).


I really liked Vampires, but to claim that it is as reactive as AP is simply innacurate. I am not interested in arguing which is better overall, that's a matter of taste. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:54 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Joy Divison wrote...
 You want Obsidian to torpedo a project that is funded by the very fans who will buy the game?  What's the point of formally objecting or expressing a worry?

No.

As for what's the point. Because I feel to. Do I need more reason?

[Dragoonlordz]

MichaelStuart wrote...

I asked for no reward.
Wouldn't feel right to ask for one, when there asking for money.

Fair enough. If you change your mind though you can do so on KS itself within the 31 days with 'manage pledge' button on side I tend to pledge for the reward amount then extra on top normally about 25-50% depending on pledge reward amount. Also for me depends how much want it or how much support want to give. However the pledge rewards themselves also have a certain amount of profitability in themselves. If I gave for example $1000 for a pledge reward I would not add any on top of that. When pledge like $25-50 I tend to add a little on top.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:05 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I do not even understand how you can say this? How can you say this is an objective way to judge whether a character person A made was better than a character person B made?

I am saying this in context. The context of Alpha Protocol, if Thorton was a blank slate character he would be objectively inferior to the Thorton created by Avellone who ALSO created everything else in the story. Thus character fits the story better, is more believable and is of higher quality then those made by other people who had no role in creating anything else in the story.

What you are saying is that if you created a character right now for Song of Ice and Fire it could somehow match the quality of writing in the characters Martin created. That's just an example.

 
It takes a skillful writer to do it well, and I'm one of those for whom even the best third person PCs aren't very memorable or replayable.  Cinematics also are enjoyable if done well but don't mean much to me, they're as forgettable as a movie.  I don't sit around and ponder movies for weeks like I do with a book.  

But you do sit around and ponder games like TW2 for weeks on end in regards to story. Cinematics are irrelevant in their own right, but when they serve the story they make the story better. The purpose of TW2 intro for instance wsn't to have an awesome cinematic experience but also to add to Letho as a character, that he is an intimidating badass son of a **** and it did achieve that purpose.

My argument is that a story is good when it has voice acting, cinematics and graphics because they work to serve it, they add an immersive experience to the game's story.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
But you do sit around and ponder games like TW2 for weeks on end in regards to story. Cinematics are irrelevant in their own right, but when they serve the story they make the story better.

While I would have still enjoyed it a lot, watching two blocks from an isometric view and reading *and they started drinking vodka together*, would have not nearly have had the same effect on me as a cutscene showing them drinking vodka with voices emoting nuances.

But I think that's a matter of taste primarily.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:03 .