1774 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

I contributed, and I'm a fairly well-known advocate of what has come to be understood 'round these parts as "a BioWare-style game."  Which PE is allegedly in competition with in some holy war of good versus evil that all must choose sides in or be cast into purgatory.  Or whatever.

Chris Avellone, in the linked article, does much the same thing Allan has been doing here: Putting the number and passion of Kickstarter contributors in perspective:

I don’t know. We’re at over 40,000 backers right now, and Schafer got 80,000+ backers for the Double Fine adventure. While those might not be numbers that would make a bizdev guy get out of bed in the morning, let alone scratch their nose, the fact that these backers are willing to pledge anywhere from 5x to 200x the amount they would pay for a standard title… well, I think that says something about the passion of the fans. If the fanbase is shrinking, the amount they’re willing to give to play such a title far exceeds what publishers may be used to seeing, and that says a lot.

It's not a controversial position. It's also a different business model that can play by different rules, which is precisely why Kickstarter is a great way to get games like PE off the ground. Suggesting otherwise is, well, ideology getting in the way of analysis.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 septembre 2012 - 09:02 .

[Cimeas]

Kickstarters could and should aim higher. When the bar is set at 1 million, many don't donate because they say 'oh it's being funded anyway, I might as well wait for gameplay".

They should have set it at like 3 million, they would still get it I'm sure.

[Dragoonlordz]

NKKKK wrote...

Why is the dev posting in this thread getting worked up when they're calling him out?

The 'dev' as you call him is a person which is also backing the project like many other 'devs' here are also backing it. He can say what he wants about the project as he is contributing too, even if he was not he could still post opinions about it. If you referring to Allen responding to the person claiming majority/minority, whether you like it or not he has the right to question unproven assumptions just like anyone else.

[Dragoonlordz]

Cimeas wrote...

Kickstarters could and should aim higher. When the bar is set at 1 million, many don't donate because they say 'oh it's being funded anyway, I might as well wait for gameplay".

They should have set it at like 3 million, they would still get it I'm sure.

You could be right but problem is if set too high there is risk won't get any if doesn't hit that higher target. Hence why stretch goals are used instead. Personally I have no problem using stretch goals instead of putting risky high initial target. The tiers are there to combat the idlology of the type of person you mention, benefit for backing it rather than waiting on release.

[Korusus]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It's not a controversial position. It's also a different business model that can play by different rules, which is precisely why Kickstarter is a great way to get games like PE off the ground. Suggesting otherwise is, well, ideology getting in the way of analysis.

I don't disagree with you here, not at all.  But I will say that we don't really know because Kickstarter is so new and I don't think anything nearly as...what's the word...I'll just go with "solid", has been tried as Project Eternity by a developer as well-established in the industry as Obsidian.  We just don't know where this will go, or what kind of success it will be above and beyond just those kicking in money now.

It's not the kickstarter money, it's what comes after that that all the publishers in the industry who said flat out "NO" to Obsidian...well this is at least $2 million they will never see, never mind the $$$ the game could potentially make once its being sold, and that's for a game that doesn't cost anywhere near as much to make as a Mass Effect 3.  Someone is kicking themselves.

The fact that Obsidian was approached by publishers wanting them to raise the kickstarter money shows that someone somewhere sees the opportunity that's being given up for basically nothing in return by refusing to target niche markets.   So it could be that Obsidian is just developing Project Eternity for the 40,000 that have contributed so far and that's it.  I have a feeling it will be many more than that in the end.  We just don't know yet.  Once Wasteland 2 and Project: Eternity are actually released and sold on the market we'll have a better idea.

I think publishers are shooting themselves in the foot, I think they're seeing how financially difficult it is to sustain the current blockbuster model, and I think niche gaming is the future of the industry.

Modifié par Korusus, 23 septembre 2012 - 12:05 .

[upsettingshorts]

Part of the problem with any comparison is that BioWare (and other game companies) are vague with their numbers, so any we make has to be built on a lot of assumptions - which tend to skew one way or the other into uselessness based on whatever prejudices we bring to it.

Kickstarter, by the very nature of its business model, must be transparent. So the hard data speaks disproportionately louder.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see these things succeed, and I'm watching with a keen eye the return of Chris Roberts (the creator of the Wing Commander series) to gaming. I just think it's, well, premature wishful thinking to point at the fact Kickstarters get funding and say - implicitly or explicitly, "Obviously this means BioWare is making the wrong kinds of games."

I believe there is a market for both kinds of games, and I hope both get to exist for a long time. After all, how many games can we say are representative of the current BioWare model. Four? Five? Six? In total? Infinity-engine style games deserve to be picked up off the mat, but there's space for both.

Edit:  In any case, I don't want to clutter up discussion of this game with a debate over the implications of PE/Kickstarter, only say that it's perfectly reasonable to analyze these things without ostensibly picking a fight. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 septembre 2012 - 12:36 .

[Yrkoon]

 Meh, don't feel like talking about busines models and sales numbers.  But This is worth a few lines:

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I contributed, and I'm a fairly well-known advocate of what has come to be understood 'round these parts as "a BioWare-style game."  Which PE is allegedly in competition with in some holy war of good versus evil that all must choose sides in or be cast into purgatory.  Or whatever.

Yeah, that's actually quite an unfortunate thing, since 1) the two companies can learn a lot from each other, and so can their fan bases  2)There's a LOT of misunderstanding between the two sides.  For god sakes, The Trailer for PE  (and its developers) actually cite Bioware games as their primary influence.

But that said, I do understand the common catch-phrase of  "bioware-syle game".  Its meaning is clear, and  accurate.    Bioware themselves wouldn't want it any other way.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 septembre 2012 - 12:37 .

[Brockololly]

Update 7: Tim Cain dropping knowledge bombs about Non Combat abilities:

Non-Combat Abilities

Let's talk first about your goals as a player, about the things you would like to do besides fighting. Then I'll talk about our design goals and explain how we are putting the non-combat systems together.

Player Goals

When you are not fighting, that's when non-combat abilities come into play. We plan to add abilities that will let you become better at achieving four different non-combat goals.

Learning new things. This includes finding out previously unknown information, like the location of town or a hidden door, or uncovering secret knowledge, like a potion recipe or the true name of a demon. Or maybe you just want to know a good place to gather materials like ore or herbs. We will make abilities that let you find things out.
Traveling around the world. You will want to improve your movement capabilities (such as sneaking around some ruins), or traveling across the world map faster or more safely, or even teleporting directly to your destination. And sometimes movement requires removing barriers like locks or traps, so you will need some way to unlock and disarm. We'll add abilities for these actions.
Getting new items. If you are not going to kill a creature to take its things, then we will give you the means to make new items, buy them, or steal them. Or maybe you will choose to support NPC's by bringing them the materials or the recipes needed to make new items for you. We congratulate you on your non-violent and cooperative plans of wealth acquisition, and we'll give you the means to do it.
Interacting with companions. Once we have added many interesting and useful NPC companions, we will have to give you ways to recruit them, improve their usefulness, and keep them from dying (or even worse, disliking you!). We will make non-combat abilities that interact with your companions, so you can keep them alive and filled with a grudging respect for you.

Now each of these goals represents a whole slew of related non-combat abilities. For example, for player traveling, we could have all kinds of abilities, including stealth and teleport abilities, as well as abilities to make world map travel faster, less likely to have encounters, and able to make use of alternate transportation routes such as over mountains using passes or over water using ships.

Design Goals

In putting together our non-combat system, we have made a list of goals for the design of these skills and the rules they need to follow.

Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one.
Non-combat skills do not use the same resources as combat skills. You don't spend the same stuff for a non-combat skill as you do for combat skills. Some don't use anything at all to use, so you will never find yourself unable to blast an opponent if you get caught sneaking.
All non-combat skills are useful. If we add lockpicking to the game, we will make sure that there are locks to pick and worthwhile rewards for getting past them.
All non-combat skills can be used frequently. If you take disarm traps as a skill, you should expect more than two traps in the entire game world. Frequency of application has a large impact on how useful something is.
Combat can be avoided with non-combat skills. There will often be ways to avoid fighting. Yes, we will have the standard methods of talking your way out of a fight or sneaking around an encounter, but there will be other ways too. Perhaps you can re-sanctify a desecrated cemetery to prevent any further undead from rising, or maybe figuring out a way across a ruined bridge will always avoid the bandits on this side of the river.
Avoiding combat does not lead to less experience gain. You shouldn't go up levels any slower by using your non-combat skills rather than your combat skills. We plan to reward you for your accomplishments, not for your body count.

[slimgrin]

Well I'm donating because this model is brand new, experimental, and purportedly gives these guys more freedom than through a publisher. I have a low opinion of publishers these days. I might not even like it, really. It's hard to say. But so far most of the info sounds up my alley.

[Allan Schumacher]

Update 7 makes me giddy!

[Yrkoon]

Brockololly wrote...

Update 7: Tim Cain dropping knowledge bombs about Non Combat abilities:

Avoiding combat does not lead to less experience gain. You shouldn't go up levels any slower by using your non-combat skills rather than your combat skills. We plan to reward you for your accomplishments, not for your body count.

Neat.  This has always been a huge gripe of mine, because almost all RPGs are guilty of this.  With the  (sometimes) excepetion of PS:T, you never got as much experience for talking your way out of combat than you did for just killing the enemy in question.  Add to that the fact that killing them means you also get their loot, and what you have  is a no-brainer:  Just kill you foe.

Nice to  finally see a game that makes  talking your way past an enemy an actual, worthwhile  choice.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 septembre 2012 - 01:26 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Vampire Bloodliens was a game that outright did not give experience for combat at all. Just accomplishing whatever said goal was that was on the other side of those enemies.

If you haven't played it, check it out. That TIm Cain worked on it helps my enthusiasm. I do agree that RPGs have historically slanted too much XP onto combat.

[Dragoonlordz]

I wonder what the big update on monday is going to be...

[Allan Schumacher]

Competitive Multiplayer no doubt

[NKKKK]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Competitive Multiplayer no doubt

That would be funny if it wasn't coming from a Bioware Developer.

[Sister Goldring]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Competitive Multiplayer no doubt

Oh HA HA HA - you

[Brockololly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Competitive Multiplayer no doubt

I hope its modding support. That would be great.

[Beerfish]

Funny thing about this whole system, the same people that totally decry day one dlc are in effect paying more to get things day one, in effect day one dlc.

[Yrkoon]

If I had to guess I'd say that since today's update was about Non-combat skills, Monday's will probably be about combat skills..

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 septembre 2012 - 03:41 .

[addiction21]

Last Kickstarter to get money from me. Of course I have said that before.

I am going to try and wait and see how these turn out. I do love the idea of it and am just over eleven hundred dollars deep in them at this point.

NKKKK wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Competitive Multiplayer no doubt

That would be funny if it wasn't coming from a Bioware Developer.

Somebody needs a hug or a permaban. Get over whatever it is. It's not healthy.

[Yrkoon]

Hey, as I write this, someone just removed their $20 pledge, which means the  previously sold-out tier has a single slot left. Quick, someone grab it!

Edit:  too late.  just sold out again.  lol

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 septembre 2012 - 03:25 .

[chunkyman]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Hmm, "godlike" races? I wonder how that will work.

Gandalf immediately came to mind.

I loved everything mentioned in the update! Seriously, these guys are like good idea making machines! It's like they got into my mind and made things exactly how I would have.