1774 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

Adventuring and dungeon crawling = traps... It's been so long the part of the experience.... I mean, can you for example imagine an Idiana Jones movie without traps?

I agree, but at the same time is the way that IE did them the best way of presenting them? I did find them a lot more interesting in FONV.


EDIT: I agree with your follow ups that there are ways to make traps better.  Hopefully Obsidian does (since I assume traps will be in).

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:49 .

[99DP1982]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Adventuring and dungeon crawling = traps... It's been so long the part of the experience.... I mean, can you for example imagine an Idiana Jones movie without traps?

I agree, but at the same time is the way that IE did them the best way of presenting them? I did find them a lot more interesting in FONV.


EDIT: I agree with your follow ups that there are ways to make traps better.  Hopefully Obsidian does (since I assume traps will be in).

Probably I could blame the technological limitations of the IE games. Original Fallout did that better IMO. Perhaps the difference was in a way how the text/descriptions were handled and how detection worked?

One thing I am sure of, "dungeon crawling" without meaningful traps (that raise some memories) is missing some flavour.

[Yrkoon]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Seeing Durlag's Tower reminds me:

What do people think about traps? In general I don't find them that interesting in the IE games, though admittedly the last time I played the IE games my perspectives on what I wanted out of an RPG have shifted.

They're not supposed to be "interesting" per se.  They're supposed to be mechanics/tools to make you slow down and fear death with every step, and to project the vibe that you're not supposed to be in here, and that there's no such thing as an easy path to that giant treasure-filled chest.    And in Durlag's tower, they were even more than that.  They were  plot devices.  They represented  Durlag's paranoia.

Since the IE games, however, traps have been watered down and diluted to the point where their only function is to serve as speed bumps in a corridor.

[Dave of Canada]

Actually, this reminds me of Dark Souls / Demon's Souls, those games had brilliant trap placement which had enough notification but were still highly lethal. The addition of having bloodstains on the floor representing other players having died just made it even better.

[Allan Schumacher]

Yrkoon wrote...
They're not supposed to be "interesting" per se.  They're supposed to be mechanics/tools to make you slow down and fear death with every step, and to project the vibe that you're not supposed to be in here, and that there's no such thing as an easy path to that giant treasure-filled chest.    And in Durlag's tower, they were even more than that.  They were  plot devices.  They represented  Durlag's paranoia.

Since the IE games, however, traps have been watered down and diluted to the point where their only function is to serve as speed bumps in a corridor.

I don't know, I still got that message from FONV (more on the mind since I played it recently) in that traps were often punitive (crippled limb if not outright death) and they were done in a way that I found myself constantly looking for them while playing the game, especially in caves or ostensibly hostile areas.  Although the threat is always mitigated unless there's an ironman mode (which PE will have), since a trap that obliterates my party in BG1 results in me reloading the game and using my metaknowledge to proceed.

I wonder if it's a player skill vs. character skill issue for me.  One thing I did not like at all was knowing there's a trap there, and with the heartbeat timer of Baldur's Gate, sitting there waiting for my character to actually detect said trap before moving on.  Whereas recognizing that there's a bear trap in the water makes me, the game player, feel like I am playing the game well.

It's also possible that I like New Vegas' traps more because of the setting, where a trap isn't just a lightning bolt materializing, but a land mine or a grenade bouquet which gave the impression of an improvization, so in that sense I'm innately more biased to New Vegas perhaps because I just enjoy that setting and how traps relate to it more.

[Yrkoon]

*Part* of the problem with Traps in CRPGs is that they're one of those pen and paper features that  have lost a lot in their translation  to computer games  and have never been able to properly re-capture the pen and paper feel.  Consequently,  no one views them as vital as they should be.   In table-top D&D, traps are one in a long list of "conflicts" that represent total game play. In a dungeon, they are literally equal to an enemy encounter. That is to say, it's just as vital to have trap finding/disarming skills as it is to have combat skills, swimming skills, lore skills etc..

Also, on table-top, traps are a problem for the entire party to solve. You don't just have your Thief scout ahead and clear the hallway. because, again, all that does is make traps a passing nuisance. Instead, your entire party lends its eyes and its different sets of skills to finding and disarming a trap.

For example, your Dwarf warrior uses his "rock sense" to detect irregularities in the walls and floors. Your Mage uses his magicocracy knowledge to detect magical residue in the area. Your Bard uses his lore knowledge to try and determine if "history" contains hints that this particular area has ever been used to trap and harm intruders. And of course, your thief uses his standard trap detecting skills to spot the tell-tale  signs  of trap mechanisms.

And that's just for detecting taps. Trap disarming uses the same party-based process. Your mage can sometimes destroy a trap from a distance. Your warrior can slice the tripwire in half with his sword. Your Cleric can pray to his god for path guidance or to render the trap inert. Your Bard and Rogue can work together to figure out a way to disassemble the trap via reverse engineeering.

That's the way traps *should* be. But pretty much since the very beginning of CRPGs, traps have always just been relegated to a secondary or tertiary function in a dungeon and completely overcome by just one set of skills possessed by just one class.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:17 .

[Brockololly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
What do people think about traps? In general I don't find them that interesting in the IE games, though admittedly the last time I played the IE games my perspectives on what I wanted out of an RPG have shifted.

Not in IE games, but I really liked the traps in Skyrim's dungeons. You got used to them after a while, but the first time you see some of them they were pretty clever in their placement. And usually if you knew where to look you could notice an odd raised stone waiting to stepped on or some other clue to warn you about them. I think there were even some Indiana Jones style weight based traps which were neat.

I like traps when they make sense and they seem built in to the world or immediate setting and actually seem like they're mechanically making sense- like in Skyrim you can see the tripwires and rocks waiting to crash down or the holes in the wall where poison darts will fly out.

[Foolsfolly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
They're not supposed to be "interesting" per se.  They're supposed to be mechanics/tools to make you slow down and fear death with every step, and to project the vibe that you're not supposed to be in here, and that there's no such thing as an easy path to that giant treasure-filled chest.    And in Durlag's tower, they were even more than that.  They were  plot devices.  They represented  Durlag's paranoia.

Since the IE games, however, traps have been watered down and diluted to the point where their only function is to serve as speed bumps in a corridor.

I don't know, I still got that message from FONV (more on the mind since I played it recently) in that traps were often punitive (crippled limb if not outright death) and they were done in a way that I found myself constantly looking for them while playing the game, especially in caves or ostensibly hostile areas.  Although the threat is always mitigated unless there's an ironman mode (which PE will have), since a trap that obliterates my party in BG1 results in me reloading the game and using my metaknowledge to proceed.

I wonder if it's a player skill vs. character skill issue for me.  One thing I did not like at all was knowing there's a trap there, and with the heartbeat timer of Baldur's Gate, sitting there waiting for my character to actually detect said trap before moving on.  Whereas recognizing that there's a bear trap in the water makes me, the game player, feel like I am playing the game well.

It's also possible that I like New Vegas' traps more because of the setting, where a trap isn't just a lightning bolt materializing, but a land mine or a grenade bouquet which gave the impression of an improvization, so in that sense I'm innately more biased to New Vegas perhaps because I just enjoy that setting and how traps relate to it more.

New Vega's first DLC Dead Money did traps fantastically. The first time I played through that I was scanning around everywhere for fear of traps. There were few healing items around and blundering into a trap would mean very bad times ahead. Plus those damn radios!

God I love New Vegas. I think I shall begin another playthrough of that game.

[Fast Jimmy]

I do love traps as a gameplay mechanic, but often I am rolling my eyes at their placement. Indiana Jones had traps, sure... but what point is there, logistically, to line tons of traps in a building? A chest or a safe... sure, I can see it. But to build a whole structure, with halls, corridors, rooms, etc, for no other reason than to hide away treasure is... highly unlikely. Gold, jewels, secret weapons, ancient artifacts... these only have value it you can access them when you need them. Discretion and more conventional security measures would be more pragmatic than a giant castle/dungeon/tomb/etc. that, essentially, is DARING people to come break in.

Also, traps as a dungeon device are fun, but as a skill they leave something to be imagined. Mostly because they hinge off of having enemies walk into them. This is done only if certain conditions are met, like stealth allowing to get ahead of the enemy or scouting them out, having the ability to 'aggro' said enemies to follow you, having you (and your party) not be able to set off your own traps and, most of all... having all of this as easy as regular combat (or having regular combat bing so hard that taking these tactics are worth the effort for survival). Also, this must not be TOO easy, otherwise it is 'lather, rinse, repeat' in every dungeon, doing the exact same thing.

Something I haven't seen used enough is to have random encounters happen where setting up traps and tactics beforehand is worthwhile (instead of just getting a 'surprise attack' bonus pop up and continue melee combat as usual). This could be combined with a scouting skill as well.

Rewarding using multiple types of traps (such as varied XP bonuses, enemies becoming 'smart' about a certain trap used over and over, or limited availability of any one particular type of trap) could all help mitigate the trap mechanic and require more than just the standard response over and over again.

[Fast Jimmy]

Foolsfolly wrote...

New Vega's first DLC Dead Money did traps fantastically. The first time I played through that I was scanning around everywhere for fear of traps. There were few healing items around and blundering into a trap would mean very bad times ahead. Plus those damn radios!

God I love New Vegas. I think I shall begin another playthrough of that game.

True story. I prefer the IE version of Fallout 1 and 2, but the execution of Bethesda's engine in FONV was top notch.

I loved the FO2 quest where you were trying to collect money from a New Reno resident and he led you out to the desert and you had multiple options that also played into your skill sets. You could dig yourself or you could have him dig - digging yourself would result in hitting a trap that may it be detected by you without a high skill. Then once you/he disarmed it, you could go down yourself (another trap) or send him. And, of you sent him and waited too long without checking on him, he squirreled away with the money. It's a nice combination of skills vs. choice that had lots of outcomes for a very small quest.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:41 .

[Allan Schumacher]

People may hate it but that sequence had some hilarious The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly references

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:41 .

[Yrkoon]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I do love traps as a gameplay mechanic, but often I am rolling my eyes at their placement. Indiana Jones had traps, sure... but what point is there, logistically, to line tons of traps in a building? A chest or a safe... sure, I can see it. But to build a whole structure, with halls, corridors, rooms, etc, for no other reason than to hide away treasure is... highly unlikely. Gold, jewels, secret weapons, ancient artifacts... these only have value it you can access them when you need them. Discretion and more conventional security measures would be more pragmatic than a giant castle/dungeon/tomb/etc. that, essentially, is DARING people to come break in.

You're right.  It *shouldn't* be that way.  Littering a dungeon with "moar traps!" and "moar loot!" for no reason but to make a dungeon more deadly and more rewarding respectively is just uncreative laziness.  Story should  strictly dictate the placement of both.

-For one thing, the nature of the dungeon's creator/inhabitants should determine what you find within.  An infamously diabolical mage's tower should indeed contain all matter of illusions, rune traps, and mage-based treasure.  It should not, however, contain the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords (for example), or mechanical based traps.  Because mages don't do that kind of stuff.

-Also, as a rule of thumb, Tombs shouldn't be trap heavy in and of themselves.  Their difficulty should come in the way of  1) enemies;  2) secret passages/doors.  Their loot rewards, though, should be suitibly massive.  People  are buried with their wealth.  If your party is tomb raiding, then that wealth should become yours.

-Forts and  modern enemy strongholds should never contain traps.   Think about it.    An enemy cannot use that stronghold efficiently if every hallway and door is trapped.    And Kobolds/Orcs/Ogres are not smart enough to create elaborate traps anyway, even if they DID want their stronghold to be a series of death traps.   Instead, all resistance should be in the form of hoards and armies  of living enemies.

Of course, with all  of the above, exceptions should be made, but again, story should dictate those exceptions

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:40 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

People may hate it but that sequence had some hilarious The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly references

Hate The Good, The Bad and The Ugly?

Who are these people? Where can they be found? They need to be helped!

[Fast Jimmy]

Yrkook wrote...

-Also, as a rule of thumb, Tombs shouldn't be trap heavy in and of themselves.  Their difficulty should come in the way of  1) enemies;  2) secret passages/doors.  Their loot rewards, though, should be suitibly massive.  People  are buried with their wealth.  If your party is tomb raiding, then that wealth should become yours.

There should also be the possibility of being cursed. This is something, oddly, I'm not sure I've seen in a game (other than, perhaps, FO2's grave digger Perk). Given the history of King Tut's Tomb and mysterious curses and maladies that befall people who enter sacred tombs, I'm surprised curses or stigmas aren't thrown out more.

Note, I'm not saying magical traps or runes. But actual curses, curses that have negative impacts on stats, or possibly results in actual story ramifications, until your character redeems themselves, or has the curse removed by an appropriate magical/holy agent.

[Allan Schumacher]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

People may hate it but that sequence had some hilarious The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly references

Hate The Good, The Bad and The Ugly?

Who are these people? Where can they be found? They need to be helped!

There are people that feel pop culture references in games shouldn't exist.  I find them entertaining.  To each his own.

[Das Tentakel]

Yrkoon wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I do love traps as a gameplay mechanic, but often I am rolling my eyes at their placement. Indiana Jones had traps, sure... but what point is there, logistically, to line tons of traps in a building? A chest or a safe... sure, I can see it. But to build a whole structure, with halls, corridors, rooms, etc, for no other reason than to hide away treasure is... highly unlikely. Gold, jewels, secret weapons, ancient artifacts... these only have value it you can access them when you need them. Discretion and more conventional security measures would be more pragmatic than a giant castle/dungeon/tomb/etc. that, essentially, is DARING people to come break in.

You're right.  It *shouldn't* be that way.  Littering a dungeon with "moar traps!" and "moar loot!" for no reason but to make a dungeon more deadly and more rewarding respectively is just uncreative laziness.  Story should  strictly dictate the placement of both.

-For one thing, the nature of the dungeon's creator/inhabitants should determine what you find within.  An infamously diabolical mage's tower should indeed contain all matter of illusions, rune traps, and mage-based treasure.  It should not, however, contain the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords (for example), or mechanical based traps.  Because mages don't do that kind of stuff.

-Also, as a rule of thumb, Tombs shouldn't be trap heavy in and of themselves.  Their difficulty should come in the way of  1) enemies;  2) secret passages/doors.  Their loot rewards, though, should be suitibly massive.  People  are buried with their wealth.  If your party is tomb raiding, then that wealth should become yours.

-Forts and  modern enemy strongholds should never contain traps.   Think about it.    An enemy cannot use that stronghold efficiently if every hallway and door is trapped.    And Kobolds/Orcs/Ogres are not smart enough to create elaborate traps anyway, even if they DID want their stronghold to be a series of death traps.   Instead, all resistance should be in the form of hoards and armies  of living enemies.

Of course, with all  of the above, exceptions should be made, but again, story should dictate those exceptions

Well, here’s where you place traps:

Tombs (not in actual reality, though, athough there are stories about the tomb of the First Emperor of China)
Treasure vaults (not sure about those either, probably modern Hollywoodian as well)
Secret access ways (sure, there’s a tunnel beneath the fortress walls, but it’s wise to have a security system. Gas is Good. Gas is your friend. Unless you’re not a friend)
Additional defensive measures for an encampment or fortification (pits & stakes beneath the fields beyond the castle walls, funnelling traffic (including attackers) to the heavily fortified gates).
If it’s a fortification or fortified settlement near a river it’s also a nice idea to have things beneath the water line.
And once the PC's boat starts sinking they release the Kraken, mwuhahaha

One problem with traps is that in fiction, they are meant to either create tension, perhaps mixed with dramatically finishing off a character. Their deadliness is key. However, in RPG’s they just cost part of your XP, and they are therefore mainly annoying (there go my potions / having to wait/rest before recovery etc).
I do like them when they are used as part of, or as a ‘route’ to, an interesting combat encounter. For instance, a room filled with gas (that keeps on giving damage) while the doors are locked and golems attack. Or a portal that transports you to a room filled with critters eager to finish you off. The trap is then basically part of a kind of ambush (or you can consider the ambush a form of trap).

One problem in CRPG’s is that traps also serve as part of the justification of the existence of the rogue (that and lockpicking). Remove them or use them sparingly, and that’s one more reason to scrap the class.

[Haplose]

Personally I have liked the traps in DDO the most. Amazing how many things that game made right
Traps were actual mechanisms/objects, rather then a spell effect materializing out of nowhere. Of course, this is partially due to the actual 3d nature of the instances. So you could jump over pits or low flames, crawl under high ones, find a secret passage to bypass them and such. Many of the mechanical ones, like whirling blades, flamethrowers and such could be disabled by a rogue - who had to successfully locate the hidden trap "control box", reach it and disable the trap (often needing to pass the trap first, before reaching the controls - Evasion was helpfull in this). But quite many needed to be avaided and/or jumped over (like falling floor traps, spike pits and such).

There were also quite a few special instances, where an entire section of the dungeon served as a trap. For example underwater sections on some maps with fans propelling strong currents (or drawing you between the blades) with spike traps that needed to be evaded. Some of these were very challenging and usually only some of the volunterer swimmers managed to get to the other side... where some enemies waited, so you were in a pretty bad position if you were the only survivor out of your group. Or an entire golem Foundry you just infiltrated going self destruct, with the whole huge structure starting to fall apart as you race and jump through new passages to the only safe area in the heart of it, running against the armageddon clock.
Or a boss raid, during which a party member would temporarily receive the power of flight.... needing to avoid sharp spike traps in narrow tunnels to reach a certain contraption...
Really the traps were both creative and interestin in DDO. I must say the level design in general is excellent in this game.

Modifié par Haplose, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:20 .

[Yrkoon]

Das Tentakel wrote...
One problem in CRPG’s is that traps also serve as part of the justification of the existence of the rogue (that and lockpicking). Remove them or use them sparingly, and that’s one more reason to scrap the class.

Yes.  This is a video game trope essentially created due to mis-implementation of proper pen and paper mechanics.  Trap detection/disarming should be a skill achievable  by anyone who studies how to detect and disarm traps.  And who's to say that only Rogues can ever master this skill?    Traditionally, Dwarves are masters of stonecraft, metalcraft and landscaping.    It would seem to me that they'd be  naturals  at the skills needed to spot Irregularies in walls and floors (where a trap may have been built/set.   And Mages.  Generally speaking,   mages are supposed to be   the analytical thinkers -  the  geniuses  among their peers.  Logic dictates, then, that if anyone can  look at a trap and  figure out how  to disarm it, it would be them.

Me, personally, I think the whole trap detection/trap disarming process should be a team effort.  But that, perhaps, necessitates that Traps be a significantly more important part of a game than most players would want them to be.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 25 octobre 2012 - 12:05 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

People may hate it but that sequence had some hilarious The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly references

Hate The Good, The Bad and The Ugly?

Who are these people? Where can they be found? They need to be helped!

There are people that feel pop culture references in games shouldn't exist.  I find them entertaining.  To each his own.

Ah, understood. I like head nods in video games. The Bridge of Death in Fallout 2, or the whale corpse were really great references that didn't beat anyone over the head. Fallout 2 had a TON of such references, actually. And ai'd say the vast majorit of them were done well. 

but, like you said, YMMV. 

[Yrkoon]

There was a funny pop culture reference in Watcher's keep (BG2) that, surprizingly, not many people I've met ever picked up on.

In Level 3 of Watcher's keep, there's a Mage trapped in the Machine of Lum the Mad. His name is Carston. And he has an apprentice. The apprentice's Journal begins with the sentence: "I curse Carston daily for the predicament he's gotten me into."

Back when BG2 came out, there was a show on MTV called "Total Request Live". And its host's name was.... Carson Daly.



And of course, in Waukeen's Promenade (also BG2)  there's a Circus Cage containing a Moose and a Squirrel  (Rocky and Bulwinkle reference?)

Modifié par Yrkoon, 25 octobre 2012 - 12:25 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I did catch the Rocky and Bullwinkle reference, but the TRL reference flew way past my radar. That's too hilarious.

One of my favorite things was the Strange Wasteland attribute in FO:NV, which turned off many of these funny, tongue-in-cheek jokes/references. Make it so the player can elect to see these of they want and then you can make everyone happy, I suppose.

[Das Tentakel]

Heh. Related to traps, in Two Worlds II there’s a ‘sacred cave’ where the protagonist has ‘flashbacks’ to a couple of earlier adventurers, a father and son. The father refers to the son as ‘Junior’ and has a decidedly Sean Connery-ish voice.
The flashbacks give hints of certain traps and how to avoid them.

That was decidedly a point where I knew that I had not ‘chosen poorly’ in buying that game, for all its warts and rough spots .

[Fast Jimmy]

^

NICE.

[Allan Schumacher]

My favourite easter egg in TOB was the adventuring party that saves/loads when trying to defeat you.

[Fast Jimmy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

My favourite easter egg in TOB was the adventuring party that saves/loads when trying to defeat you.

I need to dust off my copies of the BG series again, as I'm not even sure I remember this joke. Its been nearly a decade since I've loaded them up (I'd burned them into my retinas when I was younger).

I have to get through my Ultima 7 and Serpent Isle replays first, though. I loaded it up on a whim and forgot how to beat most the thing! The Black Gate is not an easy game to beat the main plot on without doing a LOT of wandering or resorting to a guide.