197 réponses à ce sujet

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Testosticore wrote...

It is NOT because active reload has a dedicated exocution command. You stop being stubborn. It's the difference between "do this by pressing this button at the right time" and "do this by doing anything at the right time but we aren't going to tell you about it".

It's a mechanic that exists in plenty of other games. Cancelling animations, that is. So yeah, it's not surprising there is nothing that indicates that you can do it. 

[Testosticore]

lonefedaykin wrote...

I think Derek hit this already, (Thanks Derek) but when using firearms it is possible that an operator finds a shortcut to take when reloading the weapon, or the operator has gotten physically faster at reloading the weapon. This is a bit hand-wavy, but you are correct, it does "beg the question." I would agree that it is potentially akin to quickscoping, but again that goes to your opinion on how the game should be played.

Testosticore wrote...

I'm not distinguishing between single and multiplayer, and
cheating has nothing to do with harming other players in my eyes. To use
the multiplayer distinction, however, taking shortcuts is a form of
cheating. If you take a shortcut in a race you're cheating and I feel
the analogy fits because the scoring is, for a very large percentage of
players, a race to the most points. The only way you can compete is by
taking the shortcut yourself. It forces you to play a specific way.

I think you show your hand here a bit when you say "in my eyes." This is saying that it is your opinion that RCing is cheating and I will not begrudge you your opinion on the matter. You then make the analogy to a race. I don't think this fits as a race does have a predefined course and rules and thus a shortcut would be cheating. RCing does not violate any rules (as Derek stated, again thanks) so the analogy doesn't really work.

Sorry I'm a bit behind. Had to drive home. Feel free to ignore anything above as it is probably quite tardy.

I can't fault you for your reasoning. I just disagree.

In the race analogy, not all races have defined tracks. If you and I are kickin' the bobo and we need a beer run, I might look to you and say "race you to the package store". If I cut down a side street you don't know about and you're assuming I was going to take the main road, you might feel cheated when you get there and I've already payed.

[Derek Hollan]

Cyonan wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Reload cancelling is a game mechanic utilized in a number of different game titles.  The philosophy is that it rewards particularly skilled players for accomplishing the action.

On the surface, it does not seem fair or realistic but it is merely a mechanic like any other.

Suspension of disbelief can be brought into it by saying your particular soldier, adept, infiltrator, or whatever, has learned speed reloading, or whatever, even though the animation does not support it.

It's not something accepted by everyone.  It took me a long time to be convinced by Corey Gaspur that this was a good idea, but he plays a lot of fighting games.

Cheers

Out of curiosity, have you guys/girls ever entertained the idea of having a reload cancel button(or even just pressing reload a second time), as opposed to the current popular method if doing it via medi-gel?

I didn't know animation cancelling was a thing in fighting games, but I'm still part of the "mash buttons wildly until somebody's health bar is empty" crowd =P

There is no intention of having such a button but any custom action performed by the character will cause the animation cancel when used at the right time (e.g. - reload + take cover, reload + dodge, etc.)

[upinya slayin]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Reload cancelling is a game mechanic utilized in a number of different game titles.  The philosophy is that it rewards particularly skilled players for accomplishing the action.

On the surface, it does not seem fair or realistic but it is merely a mechanic like any other.

Suspension of disbelief can be brought into it by saying your particular soldier, adept, infiltrator, or whatever, has learned speed reloading, or whatever, even though the animation does not support it.

It's not something accepted by everyone.  It took me a long time to be convinced by Corey Gaspur that this was a good idea, but he plays a lot of fighting games.

Cheers

Out of curiosity, have you guys/girls ever entertained the idea of having a reload cancel button(or even just pressing reload a second time), as opposed to the current popular method if doing it via medi-gel?

I didn't know animation cancelling was a thing in fighting games, but I'm still part of the "mash buttons wildly until somebody's health bar is empty" crowd =P

There is no intention of having such a button but any custom action performed by the character will cause the animation cancel when used at the right time (e.g. - reload + take cover, reload + dodge, etc.)

human male infiltrator + claymore =

Cloak, cryo blast debuff, Claymore, reload cancel with cryo blast cooldown button, claymore

that combo will kill anything on gold except banshee, atlas, and prime

[Cyonan]

Testosticore wrote...

I can't fault you for your reasoning. I just disagree.

In the race analogy, not all races have defined tracks. If you and I are kickin' the bobo and we need a beer run, I might look to you and say "race you to the package store". If I cut down a side street you don't know about and you're assuming I was going to take the main road, you might feel cheated when you get there and I've already payed.

You might feel cheated, but feeling cheated isn't the same as being cheated.

To go back to my old WoW example, plenty of people "felt cheated" when I used Divine Shield in a 1v1, because it makes me immune to all damage and effects for 12 seconds, and I can just heal myself back to 100% health during it. It doesn't mean that using that ability actually was cheating, however.

If somebody knows something you don't, that's not cheating, that's just one person not being knowledgable about the competition they got themselves involved in. It sucks to be in that situation, but next time you race to the store you'll know to take the side street as well.

[Testosticore]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Cyonan wrote...


Out of curiosity, have you guys/girls ever entertained the idea of having a reload cancel button(or even just pressing reload a second time), as opposed to the current popular method if doing it via medi-gel?

I didn't know animation cancelling was a thing in fighting games, but I'm still part of the "mash buttons wildly until somebody's health bar is empty" crowd =P

There is no intention of having such a button but any custom action performed by the character will cause the animation cancel when used at the right time (e.g. - reload + take cover, reload + dodge, etc.)

Any intention or consideration of alerting players to the existance of the action? I know a lot of people don't know about it outside of the BSN.

[Rifneno]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Reload cancelling is a game mechanic utilized in a number of different game titles.  The philosophy is that it rewards particularly skilled players for accomplishing the action.

On the surface, it does not seem fair or realistic but it is merely a mechanic like any other.

Suspension of disbelief can be brought into it by saying your particular soldier, adept, infiltrator, or whatever, has learned speed reloading, or whatever, even though the animation does not support it.

It's not something accepted by everyone.  It took me a long time to be convinced by Corey Gaspur that this was a good idea, but he plays a lot of fighting games.

Cheers

Out of curiosity, have you guys/girls ever entertained the idea of having a reload cancel button(or even just pressing reload a second time), as opposed to the current popular method if doing it via medi-gel?

I didn't know animation cancelling was a thing in fighting games, but I'm still part of the "mash buttons wildly until somebody's health bar is empty" crowd =P

There is no intention of having such a button but any custom action performed by the character will cause the animation cancel when used at the right time (e.g. - reload + take cover, reload + dodge, etc.)

I just kind of feel bad for the console players who don't get the medi-gel option.  When you're in cover and there's lots of murder closing in on you, those kinds of reload cancels are... less than healthy.

[Testosticore]

Cyonan wrote...

Testosticore wrote...

I can't fault you for your reasoning. I just disagree.

In the race analogy, not all races have defined tracks. If you and I are kickin' the bobo and we need a beer run, I might look to you and say "race you to the package store". If I cut down a side street you don't know about and you're assuming I was going to take the main road, you might feel cheated when you get there and I've already payed.

You might feel cheated, but feeling cheated isn't the same as being cheated.

To go back to my old WoW example, plenty of people "felt cheated" when I used Divine Shield in a 1v1, because it makes me immune to all damage and effects for 12 seconds, and I can just heal myself back to 100% health during it. It doesn't mean that using that ability actually was cheating, however.

Divine Shield was nerfed. Also, any time you spent healing while it was active is time I could spend healing or doing some other preperations.

[lonefedaykin]

Testosticore wrote...

I can't fault you for your reasoning. I just disagree.

In the race analogy, not all races have defined tracks. If you and I are kickin' the bobo and we need a beer run, I might look to you and say "race you to the package store". If I cut down a side street you don't know about and you're assuming I was going to take the main road, you might feel cheated when you get there and I've already payed.

Thanks for the chance to discuss it though. I accept that you disagree and I suppose that I can understand. To restate my position, it is my opinion that it is simply a "clever use of established game mechanics."

At risk of going off topic, I suppose I would consider a multiplayer match more akin to an established race than an impromptu beer run/race. In the situation you described, I would say that the fault was mine for a) not establishing a set course, and not knowing my environment, and c) making any kind of assumption about the "race."

To bring it back on topic, I would suggest that if you "assume" that no other players in a match will be reload canceling, then it is on you. If you feel cheated, play with people who will agree not to do it. If you personally  choose not to RC, that is fine as well, but don't assume that others will follow your play style.
You know what they say about assuming...

[seedubya85]

Ask the geth, cerberus and reapers.

[Derek Hollan]

Testosticore wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Cyonan wrote...


Out of curiosity, have you guys/girls ever entertained the idea of having a reload cancel button(or even just pressing reload a second time), as opposed to the current popular method if doing it via medi-gel?

I didn't know animation cancelling was a thing in fighting games, but I'm still part of the "mash buttons wildly until somebody's health bar is empty" crowd =P

There is no intention of having such a button but any custom action performed by the character will cause the animation cancel when used at the right time (e.g. - reload + take cover, reload + dodge, etc.)

Any intention or consideration of alerting players to the existance of the action? I know a lot of people don't know about it outside of the BSN.

Sorry, I'm probably not the guy to ask.  I fear it's one of those hidden "easter eggs" that the designers felt players could discover.

[Testosticore]

lonefedaykin wrote...

Testosticore wrote...

I can't fault you for your reasoning. I just disagree.

In the race analogy, not all races have defined tracks. If you and I are kickin' the bobo and we need a beer run, I might look to you and say "race you to the package store". If I cut down a side street you don't know about and you're assuming I was going to take the main road, you might feel cheated when you get there and I've already payed.

Thanks for the chance to discuss it though. I accept that you disagree and I suppose that I can understand. To restate my position, it is my opinion that it is simply a "clever use of established game mechanics."

At risk of going off topic, I suppose I would consider a multiplayer match more akin to an established race than an impromptu beer run/race. In the situation you described, I would say that the fault was mine for a) not establishing a set course, and not knowing my environment, and c) making any kind of assumption about the "race."

To bring it back on topic, I would suggest that if you "assume" that no other players in a match will be reload canceling, then it is on you. If you feel cheated, play with people who will agree not to do it. If you personally  choose not to RC, that is fine as well, but don't assume that others will follow your play style.
You know what they say about assuming...

But assuming assuming you aren't using a mechanic that I don't know exists and isn't advertised anywhere as a mechanic, hypothetically, I feel is different from just being ignorant of something that's described somewhere in the game.

[Testosticore]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Testosticore wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Cyonan wrote...


Out of curiosity, have you guys/girls ever entertained the idea of having a reload cancel button(or even just pressing reload a second time), as opposed to the current popular method if doing it via medi-gel?

I didn't know animation cancelling was a thing in fighting games, but I'm still part of the "mash buttons wildly until somebody's health bar is empty" crowd =P

There is no intention of having such a button but any custom action performed by the character will cause the animation cancel when used at the right time (e.g. - reload + take cover, reload + dodge, etc.)

Any intention or consideration of alerting players to the existance of the action? I know a lot of people don't know about it outside of the BSN.

Sorry, I'm probably not the guy to ask.  I fear it's one of those hidden "easter eggs" that the designers felt players could discover.

While I have your attention, Derek, is there any chance of weapon stats being added in game in addition to or overlapping the bars we have currently? I'd like to see the number difference between a Widow I and Widow IV without having to google it.

And again, thanks for your participation.

[Chaoswind]

<---- I play fighting games, and the concept is pretty simple and I love it, tell Corey Gaspur that he was right, animation cancel is a GREAT thing; go and play the Visual Novel Muv Luv: Unlimited (Alternative), the main character manages to stay alive when piloting mechs and fighting hordes of aliens because he was a fighting game junkie and forces the mech to animation cancel all the time.

[IBPROFEN]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Reload cancelling is a game mechanic utilized in a number of different game titles.  The philosophy is that it rewards particularly skilled players for accomplishing the action.

On the surface, it does not seem fair or realistic but it is merely a mechanic like any other.

Suspension of disbelief can be brought into it by saying your particular soldier, adept, infiltrator, or whatever, has learned speed reloading, or whatever, even though the animation does not support it.

It's not something accepted by everyone.  It took me a long time to be convinced by Corey Gaspur that this was a good idea, but he plays a lot of fighting games.

Cheers

Out of curiosity, have you guys/girls ever entertained the idea of having a reload cancel button(or even just pressing reload a second time), as opposed to the current popular method if doing it via medi-gel?

I didn't know animation cancelling was a thing in fighting games, but I'm still part of the "mash buttons wildly until somebody's health bar is empty" crowd =P

There is no intention of having such a button but any custom action performed by the character will cause the animation cancel when used at the right time (e.g. - reload + take cover, reload + dodge, etc.)

So thats why it happens to me reload+cover. I was wondering what was going on cause I've never used med-gel way(never had it happen I guess). 
But I probably wouldn't call it a cheat as OP stated if that was the case then auto aim on XBox could be in same boat.

[DHKany]

The amount of fail cannot be contained.
Release the Failken

[Cyonan]

Testosticore wrote...

Divine Shield was nerfed. Also, any time you spent healing while it was active is time I could spend healing or doing some other preperations.

I think it's been more nerfed than any ability in any game ever, but that's not the point. People felt cheated, but feeling cheated doesn't mean the other person actually did cheat.

In order for the discussion to actually work, one needs to more solidly define the word "cheating" than has been defined thus far in this thread. Is simply knowing more about the game cheating? Am I cheating because I know off the top of my head that the Widow X does 1083.8 base damage. or that my Talon has a 1.5x damage modifier against barriers and shields?

Perhaps it has to give me an advantage in game(A person using a Talon will still get that 1.5x modifier after all, even if they don't know it's there). Am I cheating when I know that the more recharge speed you have the less effective it becomes, and because of that I don't stack recharge speed?

The word "unfairly" has been thrown around in the thread, but what is and isn't fair is subjective. Some might say it's fair because anybody can reload cancel if they know how.

[eltdown]

Dubious semantics ahoy!

So, if there was a specific animation and button for animation cancelling along with a mention in the manual, it wouldn't be cheating? Even if the underlying game mechanics were exactly the same? Brilliant.

[ZiRK]

Reload canceling is in almost every shooter (jump-y/y etc), also this thread gives cancer - just a heads-up.

[Derek Hollan]

Testosticore wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Testosticore wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Cyonan wrote...


Out of curiosity, have you guys/girls ever entertained the idea of having a reload cancel button(or even just pressing reload a second time), as opposed to the current popular method if doing it via medi-gel?

I didn't know animation cancelling was a thing in fighting games, but I'm still part of the "mash buttons wildly until somebody's health bar is empty" crowd =P

There is no intention of having such a button but any custom action performed by the character will cause the animation cancel when used at the right time (e.g. - reload + take cover, reload + dodge, etc.)

Any intention or consideration of alerting players to the existance of the action? I know a lot of people don't know about it outside of the BSN.

Sorry, I'm probably not the guy to ask.  I fear it's one of those hidden "easter eggs" that the designers felt players could discover.

While I have your attention, Derek, is there any chance of weapon stats being added in game in addition to or overlapping the bars we have currently? I'd like to see the number difference between a Widow I and Widow IV without having to google it.

And again, thanks for your participation.

I will never say never but at this point there have been no plans to.  Breaks immersion maybe?  Speculation on my part there.

[OblivionDawn]

Testosticore wrote...

Anyone have a single argument as to why it's an acceptable practice outside of "the devs said it's an intentional mechanic"?

That's the only reason you need.

If the makers of the game don't consider something to be cheating, then it isn't. Simple as that, really.

[Testosticore]

eltdown wrote...

Dubious semantics ahoy!

So, if there was a specific animation and button for animation cancelling along with a mention in the manual, it wouldn't be cheating? Even if the underlying game mechanics were exactly the same? Brilliant.

I didn't say that. I moved on from the OP to things like asking if the game will be more noob friendly.

[billpickles]

Seems like you're going to keep at this until people agree with you that it's cheating, despite the fact that nearly everyone in this thread has disagreed with that sentiment and the developers have stated (again) that it's not cheating.  The gun is reloaded when it's reloaded, at which point, I'm going to get on with the business at hand.  The idea that people should be required to watch the rest of the animation when the mechanics clearly allow otherwise is laughable.

This is supported in real life by skilled operators being able to reload far faster than less skilled ones.  Jerry Miculek owns the world record for putting 12 rounds on target from a 6 shot revolver in under 3 seconds.  Is this cheating?

[RohanSpartan]

To answer the asinine question of the OP:

[LegacyOfTheAsh]

No. It's ridiculous how much this thread pops up. BW has stated they are aware of ut and intend not to do anything.

Modifié par LegacyOfTheAsh, 14 septembre 2012 - 10:50 .