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[peddroelm]

UPDATE - further debuff stack tests ...

Proximity Mines Debuffs from DIFFERENT players WILL STACK ... (go go all GI PARTY)
Warp Debuffs from DIFFERENT players will stack (both damage bonuses and armor weakening)...
Tactical scan will Remove Tactical scan debuff and then activate its on effect ( DOES NOT STACK EVER)
Biotic Bubble debuff DOES NOT STACK (ever)...
Recon Mine debuff DOES NOT STACK (ever)
Cryo Blast Debuffs from DIFFERENT players will stack (both damage bonuses and armor weakening)...
Snap Freeze debuffs from DIFFERENT players will stack (both damage bonuses and armor weakening)...
Annihilation Field from DIFFERENT players will stack
(slow effects not tested yet..)


latest tests with multiple players
(tests done by me with the help of corlist & Vironblood)


Weapon Damage Bonus from the Debuffs - Annihilation Field (15%), Biotic Sphere (up to 25%) , Cryo Blast (up to 25%) , Proximity Mine (20%) , Tactical Scan (up to 32.5%), Snap Freeze (10%) , Warp ( 15%) effects are treated as HEAD SHOT BONUSES (will add to the 2.5 default head shot modifier in case of headshots) and Bonuses From the same debuff type DO NOT STACK (different debuf types will stack additively ) ...

Adding their bonuses in case of headshots with the headshot modifier prevents astronomical damage numbers in case of headshots on debuffed targets ...


Simplified Weapon damage Formula for purpose of explaining ...

K = BaseWeaponDamage * (1 + sum_weapon_bonuses)

(headshot passive, targeting VI consumable, vulnerability VI gear are all weapon bonuses - will add to sum_weapon_damage)

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Weapon Damage inflicted on debuffed targets is

K * (HSmod + sum_debuffs_on_target)

HSmod = 1 (no headshot) OR WeaponDefaultHS * (1+pistol_trauma_Add_on_bonus + Marksman_HS_bonus)

WeaponDefaultHS bonus : 2.5 for most weapons capable of headshots (kishock & graal have 3)
Pistol_trauma_Add_on_bonus : using a pistol with the Pistol Cranial Trauma system (0.4 at lvl V)
Marksman_HS_bonus : Selecting the 25% headshot evolution for marksman gives (0.3125) bonus


Debuff bonuses will stack in a similar manner for power , melee & ammo damage minus the HS components as those types of damage cannot score headshots ....

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Few Numeric examples from the tests that would probably help explain better ...


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TS + Justicar

Predator X (pistol cranial trauma V) marksman HS + biotic bubble
no weapon damage bonuses

Calculated HS damage
73.5 * (1+0) * (2.5 * (1 + 0.3125 + 0.4) + 0.25) = 333.046875

Measured
333.046875
333.046875
333.046875 ..

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GI + Justicar
Predator X (pistol cranial trauma V) marksman HS + biotic bubble
22.5% WD passive (cloak off hunter mode off)
Proxy Mine 400 base (20% rank 3, 15% networked AI)

---------------------

Calculated Body Shot damage ( Bubble debuff)
73.5 * (1 + 0.225) * (1 + 0.25) = 112.546875

Measured
112.546875

----------------------
Calculated Body Shot damage (Proximity Mine & Bubble debuff)
73.5 * (1 + 0.225) * (1 + 0.25 + 0.2) = 130.554375

Measured
130.554382


-------------------
PM + PM + ... damage (won't go higher) /// PM debuff doesn't stack with itself

Calculated
400 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.15) * (1 + 0.2) = 648
Measured
648

--------------

PM + PM + PM + PM + PM....
In bubble

400 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.15) * (1 + 0.2 + 0.25) = 783 //PM debuff doesn't stack with itself

Measured
783

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Biotic Buble + Biotic Bubble


Predator X head shot (trauma add-on)
Calculated
73.5 * ((2.5 * (1 + 0.4)) + 0.25) = // 275.625 no double debuff from double bubble

Measured
275.625
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Cryo blast spammed
in bubble

Weapon Phaeston X
27.5% WD passive

--------------

Calculated Body shot
52.4 * (1 + 0.275) * (1 + 0.25 + 0.25) = 100.215

Measured
100.215027

--------------
Calculated Head shot
52.4 * (1 + 0.275) * (2.5 + 0.25 + 0.25) = 200.43

Measured
200.430054

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Snap Freeze Spammed
in bubble

Weapon Phaeston X
27.5% WD passive

--------------
Calculated Body shot
52.4 * (1 + 0.275) * (1 + 0.25 + 0.1) = 90.1935

Measured
90.193481
--------------
Calculated Head shot
52.4 * (1 + 0.275) * (2.5 + 0.25 + 0.1) = 190.4085

Measured
190.408508


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Will also add an older solo test TS

Measured
1350 - 666.8938 = 683.1062
Calculated
97.7 * (1 + 0.225 + 0.25 + 0.8 + 0.2) * (2.5 + 0.325) = 683.1061

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Warp & pistol trauma headshot example (Predator X)


709.6574 - 427.9687 = 281.6887
73.5 * (1 + 0.05) * (2.5 * (1 + 0.4) + 0.15) = 281.68875

Modifié par peddroelmz, 17 mars 2013 - 03:47 .

[Kirrahe Airlines CEO]

When you mean types, do you mean like two biotic powers cannot stack? And only a mixture of the types will stack?

[Feneckus]

 How do you explain this :

  --> 8 shots for the shields, 5 for the armor

http://www.youtube.c...Fxqlp_o#t=0m31s    --> First two shots = half of the shields, next one does a ****load of damage.

[omegamantis113]

Thanks for clearing this up. Great Job guys.

[peddroelm]

Feneckus wrote...

 How do you explain this :

  --> 8 shots for the shields, 5 for the armor

http://www.youtube.c...Fxqlp_o#t=0m31s    --> First two shots = half of the shields, next one does a ****load of damage.

You can hit an atlas up to 3 times with the same bullet ... As in not consistant .. Add damage spikes potential from blowing up various stuff on his chassis . You want reliable test results - use another target ...Get Prime - not ideal - will drone tank (spams a drone that eats shots// causes shot through cover penalty in case of AP mod) ...

[omegamantis113]

Feneckus wrote...

 How do you explain this :

  --> 8 shots for the shields, 5 for the armor

http://www.youtube.c...Fxqlp_o#t=0m31s    --> First two shots = half of the shields, next one does a ****load of damage.

Shotguns...pellet spread and misses. and the above post from Peddro

Modifié par omegamantis113, 14 septembre 2012 - 07:46 .

[Drummernate]

Feneckus wrote...

 How do you explain this :

  --> 8 shots for the shields, 5 for the armor

http://www.youtube.c...Fxqlp_o#t=0m31s    --> First two shots = half of the shields, next one does a ****load of damage.

The double damage on the Canopy is back...

Thought you would know that.

[Pedactor]

So PM is a straight 20% for 8 seconds. A second PM is only refreshing the duration.

If a GI was using PM and a TS was also using PM, then again, only a flat 20%?

Interesting. Thanks for clearing this up. Makes Marksman slightly better.

[StrawHatMoose]

Wow, I've heard it everywhere on the forums that proxy mine stacks. Too bad it doesn't, but its good to know this at least.

[omegamantis113]

StrawHatMoose wrote...

Wow, I've heard it everywhere on the forums that proxy mine stacks. Too bad it doesn't, but its good to know this at least.

I have always heard this too. Never took it seriously though. I doubt they'd include something that OP.

[BjornDaDwarf]

StrawHatMoose wrote...

Wow, I've heard it everywhere on the forums that proxy mine stacks. Too bad it doesn't, but its good to know this at least.

People have also insisted that the Tech bonus from Sabotage stacks, but that seems pretty unlikely if none of the other bonuses have stacked in that way.  Although Sabo is an interesting one, in that it's the only debuff that affects only tech power (I think).

Oh, and nice job as always! 

Modifié par BjornDaDwarf, 14 septembre 2012 - 08:01 .

[Zero132132]

Good to know. So my cryo blast IS marginally useful, even when a GI is on the team... cool.

[peddroelm]

Feneckus wrote...

 How do you explain this :

 

Here is a rather simple test you could do ... Kill an enemy with only proxy mines (preferably a low damage one - respec) ...

First hit should do normal damage .. Rest of hits should get a * (1+0.2) bonus compared to the first shot if you spam them fast enough... Count how many you needed to kill target compared to how much HP the target has .. ..

Modifié par peddroelmz, 14 septembre 2012 - 08:04 .

[BjornDaDwarf]

Are you planning on testing how these debuffs interact with powers? I've been curious about if the stack additively with things like the Armor/Shield evolutions, or if they multiply times those. Would make some sense if they stack additively like they do with the HShot modifier.

[Kalas Magnus]

Thx for the info.

[StrawHatMoose]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

StrawHatMoose wrote...

Wow, I've heard it everywhere on the forums that proxy mine stacks. Too bad it doesn't, but its good to know this at least.

People have also insisted that the Tech bonus from Sabotage stacks, but that seems pretty unlikely if none of the other bonuses have stacked in that way.  Although Sabo is an interesting one, in that it's the only debuff that affects only tech power (I think).

Oh, and nice job as always! 

Man I just want Sabotage with two GOOD damaging tech powers, I'd say Flamer and Homing Grenade (That is tech right). Sabotage with that tech vulnerability will be sweet. 

[Shampoohorn]

Awesome job again.

So is there a case to be made for diminishing returns with respect to debuffs?

The 1st 50% of debuffing is the same as reducing the health of an enemy by 1/3. (100% to 66%)

The 2nd 50% only drops the health of an enemy by 1/6. (66% to 50%)

At a certain point are your efforts better spent on damage than debuff? Maybe it's not all that relevant a question, as it would be rare for you to have many debuffers on any given team.

---------

Sabotage is interesting.  Given that its backfire damage is applied 1.5 seconds after the power is cast, does the first backfire gain the benefit of the tech vulnerability?  Or do you need to cast it a second time to get the extra damage?

edit:  based on tyhw's post here, the first casting of sabotage does not affect itself.  So the second casting will do superior damage (1.5x).  But from that point on -- if it follows the same mechanics of all the other debuff powers -- it will not do 2x, 2.5x damage.

Modifié par Shampoohorn, 14 septembre 2012 - 08:24 .

[peddroelm]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Are you planning on testing how these debuffs interact with powers? I've been curious about if the stack additively with things like the Armor/Shield evolutions, or if they multiply times those. Would make some sense if they stack additively like they do with the HShot modifier.

Here is an example of  debuffs interacting with power  (similar with weapon damage but without HeadShot mods ..)

Proxy mine damage vs target debuffed by Proximity mine (20%) and Biotic Bubble (25%)

400 is  proximity mine base damage
 20% damage (rank 3 evolution for proximity mine) 
 15% power damage from  passive

400 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.15) * (1 + 0.2 + 0.25) = 783

Proximity mine doesn't have modifiers vs defence types but if it did - it would fallow next ( * X vs armor ..)

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Found an example with exactly what you were asking for in hte incendiary bug thread

Warp + Warp

10617.187500 632.8125 (impact damage first warp)
250 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.5 * 1.5 * 0.75 = 632.8125 OK

9804.550781 727.734375
250 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3) * (1 + 0.15) * 1.5 * 1.5 * 0.75 = 727.734375

---------
Warp base damage 250
1+0.2+0.3 sum of power damage bonuses
(1+0.15) sum of debuff bonuses (pierce)
* 1.5 // warp default vs armor
* 1.5 // rank 6 evolution expose (more damage vs armor)
* 0.75 // only 75% of warp damage is applied at impact ..rest is DOT

Modifié par peddroelmz, 14 septembre 2012 - 09:02 .

[Tybo]

Shampoohorn wrote...

Sabotage is interesting.  Given that its backfire damage is applied 1.5 seconds after the power is cast, does the first backfire gain the benefit of the tech vulnerability?  Or do you need to cast it a second time to get the extra damage?

edit:  based on tyhw's post here, the first casting of sabotage does not affect itself.  So the second casting will do superior damage (1.5x).  But from that point on -- if it follows the same mechanics of all the other debuff powers -- it will not do 2x, 2.5x damage.

I think you misunderstood my post.  I calculated the damage at 
300*1.95*1.5=877.5
which is what I got.  This includes the 50% vulnerability.  However, I did not test whether it stacks with itself.  Based on peddroelmz's findings, it seems unlikely, but should be tested.

[bunnylover]

Edited: nevermind, I figured this out

Modifié par bunnylover, 14 septembre 2012 - 08:42 .

[BjornDaDwarf]

peddroelmz wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Are you planning on testing how these debuffs interact with powers? I've been curious about if the stack additively with things like the Armor/Shield evolutions, or if they multiply times those. Would make some sense if they stack additively like they do with the HShot modifier.

Here is an example of  debuffs interacting with power  (similar with weapon damage but without HeadShot mods ..)

<Examples>

Awesome, thank you.  That does answer my question about how debuffs work with those defense specific evolutions!

[Arkley]

Does this apply to damage over time as well, or just damage-taken debuffs? For example, Incinerate, Inferno Ammo, the Kishock, etc.

Modifié par Arkley, 14 septembre 2012 - 09:16 .

[rmccowen]

As one of the people who believed, and told other people, that the PM debuff stacks with itself--I'm humbled, but glad to know I was wrong.

It makes the GI look slightly less broken.

It's also threads like this that make me wish I was playing on PC.

Modifié par rmccowen, 14 septembre 2012 - 09:21 .

[peddroelm]

Arkley wrote...

Does this apply to damage over time as well, or just damage-taken debuffs? For example, Incinerate, Inferno Ammo, the Kishock, etc.

YES
Most debuffs work for all damage types (weapon (impact & dot), melee , power (impact & DOT)  & ammo (impact & dot) ) ...

Particular examples are Warp DOT ticks that will get Pierce (*1.15) bonus from first warp cast (debuff applied by warp impact damage) and Biotic Bubble Warp dot ticks that will always benefit from the extra danage to targets in bubble debuff.. 


Some ( Ex Warp Pierce) will only work for weapon (impact & dot) & power damage (impact & dot) ... So it doesn't work for AP ammo for example... and should not work for incendiary ammo ...

Modifié par peddroelmz, 14 septembre 2012 - 09:27 .