95 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It's not Leviathan. It's the ending. It's the three choices.

* YOU can't control the reapers. NO ONE can control the reapers. The reason the choice is Blue is not because it's paragon it's because it represents ORDER, and it's still being done by a machine. And is everyone going to accept the now supposedly friendly reapers as their guardians?

* Synthesis? It's forcing change on every living organism at a molecular level in the galaxy whether they want it or not. It may make EDI more alive. But since it adds non living material to already living organisms does it make them a little dead? The ramifications make me shudder. Are we talking zombie-galaxy? Besides it puts everyone under Starbrat's control. It is total bull**** too. It cannot possibly work anyway. Bippity boppity boo!

* Destroy? I still hate the collateral damage. It still is the least of the evils. I wish there was a way to clean up the mess. I'm still hoping the missing link is in the remaining DLC.

The endings at this point still suck.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 15 septembre 2012 - 04:35 .

[MKfighter89]

the choices remain, how hard would have it been to make a ending where you fight with a army vs a army of reapers. No we get space magic and a acid tripping kid.

[AlanC9]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
 YOU can't control the reapers. NO ONE can control the reapers.

Really? They sure look controlled to me.

[KENNY4753]

AlanC9 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
 YOU can't control the reapers. NO ONE can control the reapers.

Really? They sure look controlled to me.

Control shouldn't have even been an option. You spend most of ME3 fighting Cerberus and trying to convince TIM that control was not the answer. Then in the final part of the game the Starbrat says "you can control the Reapers" so somehow you belive a random AI and think that what he says makes control a good thing??? It seems to contradict the game when you think about it.

Modifié par KENNY4753, 15 septembre 2012 - 04:50 .

[AlanC9]

I didn't like the line where Shep says that he thinks control won't work. The conceptual problem with Control from my Shep's POV wasn't that Control isn't possible; maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The problem is with TIM having control.

[KENNY4753]

AlanC9 wrote...

I didn't like the line where Shep says that he thinks control won't work. The conceptual problem with Control from my Shep's POV wasn't that Control isn't possible; maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The problem is with TIM having control.

I see what you are saying but I still think that the whole control option was contradictory. The way the game is written it makes it seem that Shepard in general is against control. You may have been fine with control but not with TIM having it but bioware made it so Shepard was against it for 99% of the game. If there was more options in the game when talking to TIM where you can agree that control is possible but he can't be trusted with it then it wouldn't be contradicting itself as much. 

Not only does Shepard never think about controlling the repaers until late in ME3 but Shepard states that control is not the answer, as does Hackett, Anderson, etc.

[Necrotron]

Umm, why is my character being forced into a no-win scenario where I ally myself and blindly trust the Reapers and either commit genocide, become the dark lord myself, or rewrite every living thing's DNA without there permission and what does this have to do with the story of Mass Effect again?  That doesn't sound like a solution, that sounds more like a 'you lose' where you either die, become indoctrinated, or willingly agree to do what the Reapers want.  Are we really making a video game that ends in a tragedy?

Also, why did the catalyst contradict nearly everything Soverign said about the Reapers from Mass Effect 1? Also, if the catalyst is in the citadel, why did the plot of Mass Effect 1 even exist? Where is the fun and emotional release in this ending? Why is this video game so sadistic in it's ending? Did the authors really just torch the frachise and run?

I don't know, I doubt it would have been better. The problems with the ending always lay in the core of it's execution and it's relation to the core story, not in the details that weren't given in the original.

Modifié par Bathaius, 15 septembre 2012 - 05:38 .

[Gemini1179]

@OP Don't know. Haven't played EC or Leviathan. No desire to either. Not sure why I'm still posting. It's like some kind of survivors guilt, I guess.

[daecath]

Actually I would have been more disappointed. Ok, so now we know that there's an AI controlling the reapers. Great.

However, look what the Leviathan sets us up for:
"None have possessed the strength in past cycles. Your own species could be destroyed with a single thought. But you are different. I have witnessed your actions in this cycle: the destruction of Sovereign, the fall of the Collectors. The Reapers perceive you as a threat."
You are unique, the only one in millions of years that the Reapers perceive as a threat. And what bad-ass method do you use to save the galaxy and stop the Reapers, fulfilling your destiny as the most unique being the galaxy has ever seen? You push a button. Wow, impressive.

"From our essence, the first Reaper was created. You call it Harbinger."
This is it, there's Harbinger, the first of its kind, standing ready to stop you. Prepare for the epic boss battle... or not.

"Each Reaper has the ability to influence organics. Over countless cycles, this ability was refined, perfected, and gave rise to indoctrination."
When asked about the Reapers, Leviathan gives some generic information on how every cycle ends with the birth of a new Reaper in the form of Harbinger (and the Leviathans). Then it mentions this. That's all that's said about them. No mention of strengths or weaknesses. Just vague info on how they got their form, where they come from, and this tidbit that seems out of place. A clue perhaps?

Or not.

"Release me and we have a chance to end this once and for all."
And they do. Presumably they see something special in Shepard that makes them decide to release him/her. Like his/her awesome button pushing prowess!

"It is clear why the Reapers perceive you as a threat. Your victories are more than a product of chance."
Yep, and my final victory will be the greatest the galaxy has ever seen. I'll unite every species in the galaxy, even the oldest, the one the Reapers are based on. There will be an epic battle, and then I'll pick my favorite color and let a malfunctioning dictatorial AI determine the fate of the galaxy based on my choice! Woo hoo!

"We will fight." "Today, they pay their tribute in blood."
Or, the one Reaper that managed to track them to that planet will. And then the rest will be ignored, and we'll never hear from you again.

Yep, it would have sucked even worse, after such a buildup.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

AlanC9 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
 YOU can't control the reapers. NO ONE can control the reapers.

Really? They sure look controlled to me.

Read the post. YOU (as Shepard) weren't controlling them. The Catalyst AI with the "imprint" of Shepard was. Shepard was dead. Death by electrocution. People make the assumption that Shepard magically maintains consciousness and transfers over to the computer. No it doesn't work like that. Shepard is dead in control.

Synthesis is the Disney ending. Bippity boppity boo!

[Kroitz]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
 YOU can't control the reapers. NO ONE can control the reapers.

Really? They sure look controlled to me.

Read the post. YOU (as Shepard) weren't controlling them. The Catalyst AI with the "imprint" of Shepard was. Shepard was dead. Death by electrocution. People make the assumption that Shepard magically maintains consciousness and transfers over to the computer. No it doesn't work like that. Shepard is dead in control.

Synthesis is the Disney ending. Bippity boppity boo!

Do you have evidence for your argument that goes beyond "because I say so!"?

@Topic: I´m against the endings not entirely because of their contradiction to the themes of the series, but mainly because they are unoriginal, plagiated and Bioware is proud of that. EC and Leviathan do not change that fact, because they changed nothing.

Modifié par Kroitz, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:56 .

[FlamingBoy]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...

I would still feel pretty much the same.  The EC and Leviathan, while good, do not address what I feel is the main problem with the endings: they do not fit Mass Effect.  The catalyst and his solutions come out of no where while ignoring what were the major themes of game until that point.

Common sense should have told us about the Catalyst's existence from the very beginning. Simply put, there is no believable way that the Reapers would even exist and work together with such unision if they were free willed and free thinking. There would be conflict among their own ranks, different opinions, different options, just like everyone else. The fact that they are such a united front with a very specific and singular function is a blatant sign that something was pulling their strings behind the scenes.

The Reapers given purpose may have changed from stopping dark energy(the original ending plan that apparently left with Drew Karpyshyn) to stopping wars between organics and synthetics(Casey and Mac's new idea,) but the Catalyst has to exist in both to explain to Shepard and give him the choice. Whether you Destroy or Sacrifice, or whether you Destroy, Control, or Merge.

Also they aren't the "Catalyst's solutions" either. He's simply explaining what the Crucible's addition to his being enables. Aside from being a fan of synthesis, he doesn't push you one way or the other and all are possible even if he wasn't around and just stayed silent.

Your argument I believe would only apply if the reapers think like humans, before me3 ending the reapers were totally alien in every sense of the word and because of that it was believable that the reapers would, as you put it, "work together".  Before the ending the closest explanation for the reapers I could come up with is that they percieve themselves not to differently from the abrahamic god, whose purpose is unknown, to us, just like the reapers "it is not a thing you can comprehend"

[Sable Rhapsody]

My problem was with how the last ten minutes of ME3 came out of left field at FTL. I think ME3 had a continuous narrative thread somewhere in there, it was just very poorly implemented. With Leviathan and EC, it would've gone from "WTF IS THIS NONSENSE" to "meh, not great, but it's ok."

[Sparda16]

No the EC and Leviathan DLC made no difference to the endings whatsoever in my opinion, they are still rubbish.

Bioware/EA might as well of linked us to a Rick Astley troll video link at the very end and have been done with it.

[fainmaca]

devSin wrote...

Impossible to say. How many people are placated by the extended cut only because they had to experience the abysmal original ending? When you know just how truly awful something can be, it's hard not to see any change as an improvement, even if it doesn't address the real issues or creates new ones of its own. I'm not sure I can judge things any differently.

I agree. The image of a starving man and a half-eaten chicken leg comes to mind. Very easy to be grateful for something when all you had before was a painful nothing.

In any event, it's still a horrible ending to the trilogy. That remains clear, even if it has now been made tolerable, so I imagine I would rightly still be unsatisfied with it, even if it shipped that way.

Once again, agreed. Its not so much that I hate the ending or that I hate Bioware for creating it, I'm just disappointed. Its not that terrible an ending, by itself. Sure it runs on weak logic, but I can see the message behind it. Its just not the message that ME needed to end on. Its not a statement that I wanted Bioware to take my money to make. Its not the way to end a trilogy of games where certain expectations are built up.

I honestly think somebody at Bioware doesn't want to make video games anymore, that somebody wants to make a non-interactive narrative such as a movie where grand statements about futility and inevitability can be made and accepted. But they don't get that many of us here aren't looking for that in our games. We want games to establish their own way of being art rather than clinging to the perception of 'art' that other media has. Most of all, we want to have fun and come away with a feeling of triumph over the game rather than a feeling of defeat. I don't play football to lose to the other team, I try to win. Sure, sometimes I'll lose, but there's always the chance to win. Video games NEED TO DO THE SAME. Have the potential to fail, to lose, but don't make it inevitable.

So no, I wouldn't have been happy even if EC and Leviathan had shipped with the core experience. It still feels like admitting defeat to submit to the ending scenario.

[BladyMZ]

I shot the Kid playing the ME3 ending the first time around, so I would get Refuse ending

Honestly, if I've played ME3 with all DLC now I would propably wandering where are the Leviathans, would still be asking "where is Harbinger going" after Beam rush, why we have a new character in the last 10 minutes of the game, why is it a Deus Ex Machina, where are my War Assets, etcetera. Having slides showing the fate of SOME of my crew and results of my decisions - that should have been in the game since the very beggining, so I would'nt even imagine playing the end without them. So yeah.

[Chardonney]

I still wouldn't like it. The lack of fourth option (destroy the reapers without the catalyst and without having to lose the Geth) in the end, the lack of proper ending for Shepard (the breath scene isn't enough), the lack of war assets truly being used and seen and the shortness of the final push... those flaws are still there.

[mechalynx]

KENNY4753 wrote...

It wouldn't have changed anything. The endings are still sh*t in my opinion.

QFT

[GimmeDaGun]

I would have loved it as I do it now (hated it as it was without the EC and Leviathan). What I still hate is the complete failure of a mission: Priority:Earth and the tons of glitches they left in the game, and the things they left out for some reason and were absolutely great ideas (just take a look at the leaked script of last October).

[GimmeDaGun]

BladyMZ wrote...

I shot the Kid playing the ME3 ending the first time around, so I would get Refuse ending

Honestly, if I've played ME3 with all DLC now I would propably wandering where are the Leviathans, would still be asking "where is Harbinger going" after Beam rush, why we have a new character in the last 10 minutes of the game, why is it a Deus Ex Machina, where are my War Assets, etcetera. Having slides showing the fate of SOME of my crew and results of my decisions - that should have been in the game since the very beggining, so I would'nt even imagine playing the end without them. So yeah.

It's not a new character: it's always been there, only he is discovered and revealed to the player in the end. It was one of the greatest secrets of the whole reaper lore... and "ta-da" you find it. 

There are only 3 Leviathans and they do not concern themselves with the problems of the lesser species' problems and their harvest. Their only goal is to remain hidden and survive. They are a species who failed and driven by their arrogance and blinded by their delusions fo being invincible gods of the universe, they created the perfect superweapon which brought their own doom. Now they are only a very faint shadow of their former selves. They wouldn't be able to stand up against the reaper armada, even if they have the power to take a few of them down: they are heavlily outnumbered and they are organics who can get exhausted, not like the reapers. So they are not so great a power to reckon with (even for the galaxy which survived the reapers). They can be killed and they are few in numbers.

I agree with you about the war assett thing. I also want to see the most important ones in action, even if I'm quite pleased by the outcome and ending of the story as it is right now. 

[C9316]

I still would've been pissed that the ending still nullifies most of the trilogy.

[Ridwan]

Alot would've gotten refuse since many reacted by shooting the kid before picking a colour.

[Isichar]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Less awful but still bad.