222 réponses à ce sujet

[brettc893]

1. The Elderly.

2. The Media(Nongaming)

3. The 12 year old on Xbox Live/PSN/Internet as a whole.

4. Nintendo(I love 'em, but let's get real)

5. Marketing Firms

etc, etc.

It's way better then it used to be.

[Obeded the 2nd]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

I gotta disagree with you saying how women are portrayed poorly.
They are portrayed as sexy but think about action movies there's no ugly girl who the main character bangs.
Games are the same since there all action movies, well sorta.
And if I was into action movies as much as I am games ( I would be if they wern't so bad) This wouldn't be happening.
And as for thier personality, well maybe but not all games do that , just like the movies!

Women are often done "sexy" purely for male fantasy fulfillment though (and I'd argue against what makes a woman sexy too).

It might not be easy to see, but you also have to look at this from the perspective of how women have historically been treated as well.  When you objectify women as being physical entities who's physical traits should be on display

I like to see attractive women as much as the next person, but some of the caricatures are just pure male fantasy fulfillment.

But women are like that in all mediums, not just games.
It also goes for men in movies, when was the last male protagainst a fat bald dude, never, who would watch that? same the other way around.

Are movies considered childish? maybe by a few but not by the majority which seems to be the case for games.

Having said that I think you are right, that may play a small role but I don't think it is a major part of why I'm looked down on for playing games.

[Dominus]

When was the last male protagainst a fat bald dude?

Women are often done "sexy" purely for male fantasy fulfillment though (and I'd argue against what makes a woman sexy too).

I'd say that the ceiling has risen higher in terms of quality of treatment for women in media(interactive or not), but the floor hasn't changed any. The first Witcher game is a good example. Meeting Shani or Triss in their nighties is just plain awkward and distasteful. To the credit of CDProjekt Red, The Witcher 2 does that far better.

Modifié par DominusVita, 16 septembre 2012 - 10:24 .

[termokanden]

And yet Homer Simpson is not to be taken seriously. He is in fact the stereotypical pathetic and stupid fat man. It's true that women are portrayed in a ridiculous way, but I find that criticism far too narrow, as Homer Simpson has just helped me illustrate.

Modifié par termokanden, 16 septembre 2012 - 12:32 .

[Il Divo]

grregg wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

(...)

I would just call it fun gameplay. 

Sure, it was fun. Or I should say that it was fun for the first 200 or so and it was a bit of a chore later on, but that's beside the point. The point was that it's hard to pass "I come and kill 1000 of mooks" as mature content.

I think we gamers are somewhat desensitized to how silly most games are. In pretty much any game you'll spend the majority of time "killing" mooks that are neither particularly relevant to the story, not particularly challenging to kill and exist there for the sole purpose of allowing you to kill them. And you're rewarded with various exclamations like "head shot!" or some such.

I was playing Spec Ops The Line which was praised for it's more thoughtful treatment of war, PTSD, etc, and still you get stuff like "ding! achievement! 350 kills with a rifle!" You do realize how silly and immature this looks to anyone how's not a gamer, right?

Well said, especially with Spec Ops as an example. The key problem is that the material is not being given the weight it deserves. Even in something like Spec Ops, which has been applauded for its approach to war in comparison to CoD, falls into this trap: there are moments of great intensity where the player causes great atrocities and then there's all the typical combat where all the dramatic tension is forgotten where we kill people ad infinitum.

To an extent, I'm not certain it's something we can ever overcome since games require alot more action scenes (since people want gameplay) than any other medium. There comes a point where I at least stop thinking about the events of the story and just focus on getting from Point A to Point B.

[Bostur]

Adults are supposed to drink beer and watch football on the TV!

I think there are some historical reasons for playing to be considered childish. With the industrialization adults didn't have much time for anything but working and sleeping. Then when people got more spare time TV was invented and stole all the time instead.

The gaming generations is probably one of the first ones to have spare time to do with as we choose. People I know from my generation play video games, board games, PnP RPGs or do all sorts of creative stuff. The generation of my parents generally just worked and watched TV.

Now it would be nice if the video game industry would start making more games for those of us who grew up with gaming and was kids in the 80s and 90s. Then gaming may seem less childish.

[RedArmyShogun]

^ Don't forget work on cars or shopping! (Men on the cars women on the shopping lulz)

And doubt it look at the more adult games today. They generally are blamed in a number of nations for the degradation of society.

Plus at the same time its like an interview with Star Wars 1313 said.

(I don't remember the names but guy 1 is one of the creators, guy two is another.)

Interviewer: Judging by the sceans the game seems more gritty does this mean a new Adult Theme?

Guy 1: Yes we want to make a more mature title for our fans, apart from the style typically used.

Interviewer: So does this mean we'll finally get blood and guts in a starwars game?

Guy 2: We are making a game for adults, not psychopaths.



So with that remark it leads to what is more "adult" is it politcal theames? T&A? Blood and Gore? A novel like story? Gamers are one of the most varried and diverse groups ever.

Get 100 people for example and ask them what would make the perfect RPG and to do so in detail, and you'll find none of them in agreement.

[Allan Schumacher]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

But women are like that in all mediums, not just games.

First off, I think that's a poor reason to keep doing it.  But it's MUCH more pronounced in games because you can literally get women with unrealistic proportions and wearing outfits that defy gravity.

Here's a shot from one of my favourite (and quite mature!) games:

It also goes for men in movies, when was the last male protagainst a fat bald dude, never, who would watch that? same the other way around.

Are movies considered childish? maybe by a few but not by the majority which seems to be the case for games.

The problem I have with it is it's typically male wish fulfillment.  Having said that, it's much more likely that a male character in a movie be added specifically to draw sex appeal for women.  This is very, very rare in gaming.

Having said that I think you are right, that may play a small role but I don't think it is a major part of why I'm looked down on for playing games.

It's just the stigma.  Industry is still quite young.  More and more gamers and growing up though.

[upsettingshorts]

If men received the same treatment in games that women did, you would have met Zevran in DAO and be shocked to discover his disproportionately large package tenuously contained by his barely-adequate, exposed underwear, as part of a broader S&M-like ensemble that exposed his mancheeks. And I'm not talking about the ones on his face.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If men received the same treatment in games that women did, you would have met Zevran in DAO and be shocked to discover his disproportionately large package tenuously contained by his barely-adequate, exposed underwear, as part of a broader S&M-like ensemble that exposed his mancheeks. And I'm not talking about the ones on his face.

This.

I can't stand the argument that men are somehow sexualized just as much as women are in video games.   Yes, men in video games are usually very handsome and chiseled, but this is idealization and not sexualization.  The video game companies do not create these handsome men to be drooled at in a sexual way.  You look at them and go "oh man, they're so cool."

Meanwhile it's not the same thing for women at all. 

[hoorayforicecream]

RinjiRenee wrote...

This.

I can't stand the argument that men are somehow sexualized just as much as women are in video games.   Yes, men in video games are usually very handsome and chiseled, but this is idealization and not sexualization.  The video game companies do not create these handsome men to be drooled at in a sexual way.  You look at them and go "oh man, they're so cool."

Meanwhile it's not the same thing for women at all. 

The classic argument is easily defeated. Which group is far more attractive to and popular with women? Which group looks more like the stereotypical lead in a movie/comic/video game?

Group A:



or group B:

[upsettingshorts]

You're gonna get some skewed results with Jason Momoa in the second group, tho.

[Obeded the 2nd]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

But women are like that in all mediums, not just games.

First off, I think that's a poor reason to keep doing it.  But it's MUCH more pronounced in games because you can literally get women with unrealistic proportions and wearing outfits that defy gravity.

Here's a shot from one of my favourite (and quite mature!) games:

It also goes for men in movies, when was the last male protagainst a fat bald dude, never, who would watch that? same the other way around.

Are movies considered childish? maybe by a few but not by the majority which seems to be the case for games.

The problem I have with it is it's typically male wish fulfillment.  Having said that, it's much more likely that a male character in a movie be added specifically to draw sex appeal for women.  This is very, very rare in gaming.

Having said that I think you are right, that may play a small role but I don't think it is a major part of why I'm looked down on for playing games.

It's just the stigma.  Industry is still quite young.  More and more gamers and growing up though.

haha, that picture is insane.

But I guess the industry is young like you said so needs to grow.
Still f***ing annoying for me to be look down on but nothing I can do but wait.

[Joy Divison]

RinjiRenee wrote...

I can't stand the argument that men are somehow sexualized just as much as women are in video games.   Yes, men in video games are usually very handsome and chiseled, but this is idealization and not sexualization.  The video game companies do not create these handsome men to be drooled at in a sexual way.  You look at them and go "oh man, they're so cool."

Meanwhile it's not the same thing for women at all. 

You're going to have to explain that one.  When I hear my female friends squee at the "meat" on the 4th floor in the history department, they talk about ruggedness, handsome faces, chiseled physiques, broad shoulders, et al and that sounds very sexual to me.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 16 septembre 2012 - 04:44 .

[upsettingshorts]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

haha, that picture is insane.

But I guess the industry is young like you said so needs to grow.
Still f***ing annoying for me to be look down on but nothing I can do but wait.

Eh, just pay attention to the stuff and call it out when you see it.

There is a mature way to appreciate immature things.  But people judging others for their harmless hobbies will always be immature, so pay it no mind.

[upsettingshorts]

Joy Divison wrote...

You're going to have to explain that one.

Here you go.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 septembre 2012 - 04:47 .

[Fishy]

Your mom is probably teasing you for a reason. If you`re very secretive about your hobby ( Like a lot of gamers) and feel insecure about what  you enjoy when you confront others .. Why they should respect your choice if you don`t yourselves?

If your mom said -  Off to play more poker ? Would you have responded differently ? You`re the one who`s insulting yourselves by being the  insecure guy about your hobby.  ELderly people don`t like it either when you tell her

-- OFF TO THE BINGO !!!!!!!

My mothers kept telling me that young people play bingo and this is actually true. It`s not just a gaming thing. Just like a lot of people believe that  manwho love car are big  macho.

Stereotype are everywhere and you just need to be confident in what you enjoy to do. Than ppl will see that you`re serious and will respect you.

I am 33 years old and you know what was the biggest discussion during Chrismast ? Dragon Age .. We just did not care about the others opinion in the room and you know what .. No one laughed.

Don`t be a snob either. A lot of people are very snob about their hobbies.. That no one can ''understand them'' . If ppl ask you a question than be open about it.

And if someone seem to be ''making', fun with a very copndescending tone about you and what you enjoy. Ignore them. They`re not worth your time.

Modifié par Suprez30, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:04 .

[Joy Divison]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

You're going to have to explain that one.

Here you go.  

While I agree with the overall point, I do not think it is correct to deny or downplay the sexual element in those idealized male portrayals.  I suppose that was what I was getting is that idealization and sexualization (when it comes to this respect anyway) is a false dichotomy.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:02 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

You're going to have to explain that one.

Here you go.  

ty for that, there's no easier way to explain

Video game/comic book/whatver characters do not exist in a vacuum.   They are created by actual real human beings, and in the case of the video game industry, many of these designers are male.   They create these handsome males to be some ideal person for the player to worship as being cool and/or strong and/or the best.     Sure, sometimes they do end up being very easy on the eyes anyway, but that isn't the real intention.

[termokanden]

RinjiRenee wrote...

I can't stand the argument that men are somehow sexualized just as much as women are in video games.

That's because they are not (although it is getting there!). But that's not all there is to it.

My point is that both genders suffer from stereotypes that are perpetuated by the media (and outside the media for that matter), and yet people keep narrowmindedly focusing on one aspect of it.

An example: I was a "nerd" in school. I liked my computer and I did well in school, but I had no interested in playing football. This didn't fit the male stereotype, so obviously I was shunned by nearly everyone.

We also had a female teacher tell us once that boys weren't as smart as girls and that all they could do was run around and make noise.

There are many more examples of course. The point is that stereotypes are bad, okay?

[Joy Divison]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

You're going to have to explain that one.

Here you go.  

ty for that, there's no easier way to explain

Video game/comic book/whatver characters do not exist in a vacuum.   They are created by actual real human beings, and in the case of the video game industry, many of these designers are male.   They create these handsome males to be some ideal person for the player to worship as being cool and/or strong and/or the best.     Sure, sometimes they do end up being very easy on the eyes anyway, but that isn't the real intention.

That's where we are going to have to disagree.  If the designers are male and these games are tailored to a male auidience, then what we have are male protagonists that are imputed with the sexual features that men think women desire.  Even if there is a measurable divergence between what is actually appealing to women, the sexual element is still very pronounced and we are going to have male leads that are easy on the eyes.

[slimgrin]

The core issue is that both sexes tend to get very generalized, cliched treatment in games. It takes a hell of a lot to offend me, but the male stereotypes in Gears of War come close. They're so bloody annoying. Every time this topic comes up though, I point to RPG's, where fans expect quality story telling. There's much greater scrutiny on Bioware, CDPR, Bethesda, etc and while there still needs to be more progress, they are markedly ahead of the action genre.

Modifié par slimgrin, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:20 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Joy Divison wrote...
That's where we are going to have to disagree.  If the designers are male and these games are tailored to a male auidience, then what we have are male protagonists that are imputed with the sexual features that men think women desire.  Even if there is a measurable divergence between what is actually appealing to women, the sexual element is still very pronounced and we are going to have male leads that are easy on the eyes.

Given the fact that game developers continue to believe that girls only play games like:





... and etc. where there are no big macho sexy men in sight (no seriously, go to Gamestop and look for their Games for Girls section), I'm going to have to very much disagree with your assessment.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:24 .

[upsettingshorts]

Seriously, call me when characters like Zevran routinely look anything like the way I described above and I'll buy the equivalency arguments.  Not before.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:29 .

[termokanden]

And so once again we are lost in the objectification of women argument and forget all about the other stereotypes that are also harmful, such as fat people being either idiots or evil, or the macho male hero, or the pathetic nerd. Oh and take a look at something like Twilight (which is not marketed towards males) and tell me that portrays anyone in an remotely realistic way.