222 réponses à ce sujet

[Fishy]

One of the worst stereotype in RPG are traders. They`re always ugly , dumb and only think about profit.

[slimgrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Seriously, call me when characters like Zevran routinely look anything like the way I described above and I'll buy the equivalency arguments.  Not before.

There is no equivilency argument. Woman are more sexualized in every medium. Men are percieved to embody different attributes, so we get the suare-jawed brute bristling with muscle. Both miss the mark. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:33 .

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Seriously, call me when characters like Zevran routinely look anything like the way I described above and I'll buy the equivalency arguments.  Not before.

There is no equivilency argument. Woman are more sexualized in every medium. Men are percieved to embody different attributes so we get the suare-jawed brute bristling with muscle. Both miss the mark. 

But bringing it up every time someone criticizes said sexualization is at best derailing, and at worst typically just that - false equivalency.  

[slimgrin]

termokanden wrote...

And so once again we are lost in the objectification of women argument and forget all about the other stereotypes that are also harmful, such as fat people being either idiots or evil, or the macho male hero, or the pathetic nerd. Oh and take a look at something like Twilight (which is not marketed towards males) and tell me that portrays anyone in an remotely realistic way.

You've said it better than I have. Thoughtful, mature writing allows developers to sidestep shallow characterization across the board, not just with portrayals of women.

Modifié par slimgrin, 16 septembre 2012 - 06:16 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

termokanden wrote...

And so once again we are lost in the objectification of women argument and forget all about the other stereotypes that are also harmful, such as fat people being either idiots or evil, or the macho male hero, or the pathetic nerd. Oh and take a look at something like Twilight (which is not marketed towards males) and tell me that portrays anyone in an remotely realistic way.

This is about False Equivalency

Yes, stereotypes are bad, but women since the beginning of written history have been treated as sexual objects.   This has led to them being treated as less than equal, and in some cases, being subjected to abuse and violence.   The sexualization of men (or the myth thereof) isn't even relevant because men have privilege over women.  We idealize the sexy man.  We treat the sexy woman like an object.  That.  is.  the.  difference.  There are not somehow equal.

[termokanden]

I'd say it's also quite a bit offensive to see that titles marketed as "games for girls": Unicorns, cooking, animal shelter, fashion craze. Yeah, no stereotyping there. You are a girl. This is what you need to know.

Then again, I have to admit to playing quite a few soldier-type games myself. But hey, I'll play a cooking game if it's fun. And bring on the unicorns!

RinjiRenee wrote...

Yes, stereotypes are bad, but women
since the beginning of written history have been treated as sexual
objects.   This has led to them being treated as less than equal, and in
some cases, being subjected to abuse and violence.   The sexualization
of men (or the myth thereof) isn't even relevant because men have
privilege over women.  We idealize the sexy man.  We treat the sexy
woman like an object.  That.  is.  the.  difference.  There are not
somehow equal.

Look, I'm not even arguing that women have been treated poorly. But you claim that sexualization of men is a myth and that when people objectify males it just means they are idealizing them. This sounds incredibly sexist to me.

Modifié par termokanden, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:43 .

[Joy Divison]

Modifié par Joy Divison, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:44 .

[upsettingshorts]

termokanden wrote...

Look, I'm not even arguing that women have been treated poorly. But you claim that sexualization of men is a myth and that when people objectify males it just means they are idealizing them. This sounds incredibly sexist to me.

Again, point to the army of scantily clad male heroes with massive, lovingly-rendered crotchbulges and you'll have a leg to stand on.

Until then, this is just ignorance wrapped in denial.  The distinction between sexualization and idealization has been established, and women suffer much more disproportionately under the former while men - equally disproportionately - enjoy the latter.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:52 .

[Joy Divison]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Given the fact that game developers continue to believe that girls only play games like:

... and etc. where there are no big macho sexy men in sight (no seriously, go to Gamestop and look for their Games for Girls section), I'm going to have to very much disagree with your assessment.

Well, it's one thing for you to include E games targeted for ages 4+.  I mean, I could post a picture of Kirby Nightmare in Dreamland and Tonka Rescue Patrol and make a point too.

But when making covers for MATURE games, game companies perhaps they should take a cue from book publishers:

Modifié par Joy Divison, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:52 .

[termokanden]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Again, point to the army of scantily clad male heroes with massive, lovingly-rendered crotchbulges and you'll have a leg to stand on.

Until then, this is just ignorance wrapped in denial.

Might as well be yammering on about "reverse racism" if you're going to label Rinji a "sexist."  

I never said it was as bad for men as for women. In fact, I specifically said just the opposite. This does not mean men are not objectified. Calling it a myth does indeed seem sexist to me.

Oh and there is both idealization AND sexualization of males going on. In fact, there's this weird dating show on TV here where both men and women strip down to their underwear and do a little dance on a stage (yes, this is primetime Danish TV, I kid you not). Then members of the opposite sex evaluate their performance and looks. But that is obviously just idealization. Silly me!

Modifié par termokanden, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:54 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

... scantily clad male heroes with massive, lovingly-rendered crotchbulges...

Woo, did somebody say crotch bulges?




Source

I would totally buy comics like this. Especially if they posed like that as often as female characters.

[slimgrin]

RinjiRenee wrote...

  We idealize the sexy man.  We treat the sexy woman like an object.  That.  is.  the.  difference.  

And it's never going to change because that sorry fact is hardwired into our species. So, aside from telling you to get used to it, I'm advocating a more intelligent approach that avoids all stereotypes. Which is about as good as you're going to get. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:59 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Joy Divison wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Given the fact that game developers continue to believe that girls only play games like:

... and etc. where there are no big macho sexy men in sight (no seriously, go to Gamestop and look for their Games for Girls section), I'm going to have to very much disagree with your assessment.

Well, it's one thing for you to include E games targeted for ages 4+.  I mean, I could post a picture of Kirby Nightmare in Dreamland and Tonka Rescue Patrol and make a point too.

But when making covers for MATURE games, game companies perhaps they should take a cue from book publishers:

missingthepoint.jpgs

And women are constantly ridiculed for reading harlequin novels when a man watching pornography is just "being a guy."

False equivalency.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Suprez30 wrote...

One of the worst stereotype in RPG are traders. They`re always ugly , dumb and only think about profit.

But his -father is very warm and clever.

Modifié par Imperial Sentinel Arian, 16 septembre 2012 - 06:12 .

[upsettingshorts]

termokanden wrote...

I never said it was as bad for men as for women. In fact, I specifically said just the opposite. This does not mean men are not objectified. Calling it a myth does indeed seem sexist to me.

The fact none have answered my call to show sexualized men in the manner in which I describe is certainly evidence of this being a myth.  

In this thread and others like it the only evidence ever offered turns out to just be examples of idealization.

Short of there being an endless amount of overwhelming evidence, the point is already made.  Why?  Because the sexualization of women is so ubiquitous that even a hundred examples of ****bulge Zevran would not tip the scales at all.

As far as to your quaint deployment of the term "sexist," well... 

slimgrin wrote...

And it's never going to change because that sorry fact is hardwired into our species. So, aside from telling you to get used to it, I'm advocating a more intelligent approach that avoids all steryotypes. Which is about as good as you're going to get. 

Oh biological determinism.  That's not a routinely debunked quack "science"at all... oh wait it is.

Might as well cite astrological signs.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:59 .

[hoorayforicecream]

slimgrin wrote...

And it's never going to change because that sorry fact is hardwired into our species. So, aside from telling you to get used to it, I'm advocating a more intelligent approach that avoids all steryotypes. Which is about as good as you're going to get. 

My response

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:57 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

termokanden wrote...

I never said it was as bad for men as for women. In fact, I specifically said just the opposite. This does not mean men are not objectified. Calling it a myth does indeed seem sexist to me.

The fact none have answered my call to show sexualized men in the manner in which I describe is certainly evidence of this being a myth.  

In this thread and others like it the only evidence ever offered turns out to just be examples of idealization.

Short of there being an endless amount of overwhelming evidence, the point is already made.  Why?  Because the sexualization of women is so ubiquitous that even a hundred examples of ****bulge Zevran would not tip the scales at all.

As far as to your quaint deployment of the term "sexist," well... 

Oh my gosh men being discriminated against, that's cute.

[slimgrin]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

And it's never going to change because that sorry fact is hardwired into our species. So, aside from telling you to get used to it, I'm advocating a more intelligent approach that avoids all steryotypes. Which is about as good as you're going to get. 

My response

Which part are you laughing at? Avoiding all stereotypes? I hope not.

Modifié par slimgrin, 16 septembre 2012 - 06:04 .

[slimgrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


Oh biological determinism.  That's not a routinely debunked quack "science"at all... oh wait it is.

Might as well cite astrological signs.

Well, as has been mentioned, the topic isn't just about how do we appease the ladies. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 16 septembre 2012 - 06:03 .

[termokanden]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The fact none have answered my call to show sexualized men in the manner in which I describe is certainly evidence of this being a myth.  

In this thread and others like it the only evidence ever offered turns out to just be examples of idealization.

You mean like the show I mentioned above? Yeah that must be idealization.

It isn't like it's the only example of that. How many times (mostly on TV of course) have we seen the "hot guy" who generally looks quite muscular, as opposed to most modern men who do not live in caves and hunt mammoths for a living.

As far as to your quaint deployment of the term "sexist," well... 

Well, that's what I think it is.

RinjiRenee wrote...

Oh my gosh men being discriminated against, that's cute.

Yeah, it couldn't possibly happen! I totally agree.

Modifié par termokanden, 16 septembre 2012 - 06:04 .

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

And it's never going to change because that sorry fact is hardwired into our species. So, aside from telling you to get used to it, I'm advocating a more intelligent approach that avoids all steryotypes. Which is about as good as you're going to get. 

My response

Which part are you laughing at? Avoiding all steryotypes? I hope not.

Your position is the equivalent of wanting the fire department to rescue all the kittens stuck up in trees as well as put out the four-alarm fire downtown.

Yeah, okay.

But.

That fire is a much, much bigger deal.  

termokanden wrote...

You mean like the show I mentioned above? Yeah that must be idealization.

Stop everything, everyone!  One show in Denmark has changed everything for everyone forever and ever and ever.

Please continue to ignore the obvious because acknowledging it would make you uncomfortable.

termokanden wrote... 


It isn't like it's the only example of that. How many times (mostly on TV of course) have we seen the "hot guy" who generally looks quite muscular, as opposed to most modern men who do not live in caves and hunt mammoths for a living.

Muscles are not the same thing as boobs.
Big muscles are also not the same thing as big crotches.

termokanden wrote... 

Well, that's what I think [sexism] is.

You're wrong. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 septembre 2012 - 06:08 .

[slimgrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Your position is the equivalent of wanting the fire department to rescue all the kittens stuck up in trees as well as put out the four-alarm fire downtown.

Yeah, okay.

But.

That fire is a much, much bigger deal.  

No, I'm acknowledging both problems and tyring to cite a root cause. And a solution. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 16 septembre 2012 - 06:09 .

[termokanden]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Muscles are not the same thing as boobs.

So they were dancing around in their underwear so other men could point at them and go "ooh, that guy looks awesome, I want to be just like him". Yeah... No, I think not.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You're wrong. 

So categorically denying that men can be sexualized and objectified sounds fair to you?

Modifié par termokanden, 16 septembre 2012 - 06:11 .

[upsettingshorts]

termokanden wrote...

So they were dancing around in their underwear so other men could point at them and go "ooh, that guy looks awesome, I want to be just like him". Yeah... No, I think not.

You might want to read my post again.

termokanden wrote... 

So categorically denying that men can be sexualized and objectified sounds fair to you?

Straw man.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 septembre 2012 - 06:13 .

[termokanden]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You might want to read my post again.

Fair enough. I was too quick on the keys there. You actually chose to ignore my example, right after complaining that nobody could give you any examples.

As for the muscles argument, it has to do with the ideal body image. People are always complaining (and rightfully so) that women are given unrealistic ideals to strive for. Well this is the exact same thing.

Upsettingshorts wrote... 
Strawman

Is it? Because that is very the argument I chose to attack. That men cannot be sexualized but only idealized.

Modifié par termokanden, 16 septembre 2012 - 06:18 .