222 réponses à ce sujet

[highcastle]

termokanden wrote...

So categorically denying that men can be sexualized and objectified sounds fair to you?

Ahahahaha. Men are not sexualized in games, as shorts and others have said. They are idealized. They are part of the male power fantasy. Men are supposed to put themselves into the role of Big McHugelarge and fantasize about how awesome they are. If women (or men) objectify or sexualize those portrayals, that's still not the intended purpose of the hero. The purpose is always power fantasy.

Now look at women who are portrayed in anatomically incorrect ways, always striking sexy poses and wearing outfits that are little more than a couple bits of string. The goal is not to get women to fantasize about being her. The goal is to provide men with an object to lust after.

Do you understand? Regardless of how some fans interpret the characters or fantasize about them, men are being created as heroes and women as sex objects.

[upsettingshorts]

I did not ignore it, I simply implied it wasn't remotely substantial enough to buck one of the most pervasive and consistent trends in history. Because it isn't.

I have presented two stances thus far:

1) If the portrayal of men and women was at all equal in videogames, a character like Zevran would have appeared in a fundamentally different, more exploitative, and highly sexualized outfit that drew a disprorportionate amount of attention to his disproportionately large sex organ.

2) Almost all examples of alleged male sexualization turn out to be idealization, and any genuine examples of male sexualization are too infrequent (or niche) to even getting close to the kind of balance an argument appealing to equivalency would demand.

It is a straw man because I never said that such things were categorically impossible.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 septembre 2012 - 06:22 .

[hoorayforicecream]

termokanden wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote... 
Strawman

Is it? Because that is very the argument I chose to attack. That men cannot be sexualized but only idealized.

Nobody said that men cannot be sexualized and only idealized. The extent to which men are sexualized and not idealized is disproportionately tiny compared to the extent to which women are. It's like comparing a paper cut on your finger to someone whose body is completely covered in similar cuts. Sure, they're both similar injuries on a case by case basis, and they both hurt, but one is clearly more serious than the other. Saying men are sexualized too is like telling someone covered in cuts "But my cut hurts too!"

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 16 septembre 2012 - 06:26 .

[Joy Divison]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

missingthepoint.jpgs

And women are constantly ridiculed for reading harlequin novels when a man watching pornography is just "being a guy."

False equivalency.

It's "false" because it is inconvenient to your extremist position.  Whatever...just go on thinking it is more socially acceptable for men to watch porn than women reading trashy romance novels.

I am not missing your point.  I do not totally agree with it.  Why is it necessary to back up the overall astute point you are trying to make - women have been and are objectified far more than men and in different and subtle ways that might not be obvious - with a nonsensical blanket statement that men are also not sexualized?  To back up such an extremist position you are willing to pigeonhole the entire game industry by stating its all men and they only produce games about cooking and unicorns for women.  Or that its cool for men to watch porn whereas women need to hide their novels lest they get ridiculed.

I'm done here.  I'm not comfortable continuing a discussion on a position I ostensibly agree with someone who takes an extremist tact.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 16 septembre 2012 - 06:26 .

[bleetman]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Oh my gosh men being discriminated against, that's cute.

[slimgrin]

Well this has derailed. People are not addressing the big picture here.

Modifié par slimgrin, 16 septembre 2012 - 06:28 .

[termokanden]

highcastle wrote...

Do you understand? Regardless of how some fans interpret the characters or fantasize about them, men are being created as heroes and women as sex objects.

I don't actually disagree with you.

Games are changing and I think we will see more "equality" in the stereotypes as companies start to realize there are many female gamers (it actually puzzles me a little that they havan't QUITE figured it out yet). I assume this is why there isn't much sexualization of males in games, but there is in the media.

The idealization that you mention isn't harmless either. Remember the examples of fat bald protagonists? I think the only one we saw so far was Homer Simpson, and he's hardly a hero.

What worries me is that humans are seemingly incapable of handling more than one problem at once. There is MASSIVE stereotyping going on both in games and other media and it isn't just based on gender. I wish we could seriously attempt to tone all of it down. It isn't like we only CAN focus on one of them at once, as previously suggested.

[termokanden]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Nobody said that men cannot be sexualized and only idealized.

Alright let me tone down my apparent hostility for a second. First of all, yes, someone did say that. That someone was NOT upsettingshorts. This is why it wasn't a strawman argument.

@upsettingshorts: I agree with your 1) statement. Sexualization of males does exist to a small degree in games and to a much higher degree in other media (and no it's still not equal there). That just doesn't mean I think it's OK.

Sorry for the double post and walls of text

Modifié par termokanden, 16 septembre 2012 - 06:36 .

[highcastle]

termokanden wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Do you understand? Regardless of how some fans interpret the characters or fantasize about them, men are being created as heroes and women as sex objects.

I don't actually disagree with you.

Games are changing and I think we will see more "equality" in the stereotypes as companies start to realize there are many female gamers (it actually puzzles me a little that they havan't QUITE figured it out yet). I assume this is why there isn't much sexualization of males in games, but there is in the media.

The idealization that you mention isn't harmless either. Remember the examples of fat bald protagonists? I think the only one we saw so far was Homer Simpson, and he's hardly a hero.

What worries me is that humans are seemingly incapable of handling more than one problem at once. There is MASSIVE stereotyping going on both in games and other media and it isn't just based on gender. I wish we could seriously attempt to tone all of it down. It isn't like we only CAN focus on one of them at once, as previously suggested.

Actually, there are plenty of examples beyond just games. Television is a popular offended of the men-get-to-be-average-but-women-must-be-supermodels motif: King of Queens, Modern Family (best exemplified with Jay and Gloria), Still Standing,  Grounded for Life,  etc. It's more acceptable for men to be of average appearance or overweight, but the women are still largely presented as variations of a single theme.

The other problem is that video games are largely still being made with a male audience in mind despite the fact that plenty of women play them. And while men might be idealized, they are still shown as characters. Women are sexualized and often shown as objects. One of those things is more harmful than others, and it's the one that portrays an entire gender as less than human, as something to be fought for and won, to be drooled over but not considered worthy of anything else but base lust.

[slimgrin]

highcastle wrote...

termokanden wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Do you understand? Regardless of how some fans interpret the characters or fantasize about them, men are being created as heroes and women as sex objects.

I don't actually disagree with you.

Games are changing and I think we will see more "equality" in the stereotypes as companies start to realize there are many female gamers (it actually puzzles me a little that they havan't QUITE figured it out yet). I assume this is why there isn't much sexualization of males in games, but there is in the media.

The idealization that you mention isn't harmless either. Remember the examples of fat bald protagonists? I think the only one we saw so far was Homer Simpson, and he's hardly a hero.

What worries me is that humans are seemingly incapable of handling more than one problem at once. There is MASSIVE stereotyping going on both in games and other media and it isn't just based on gender. I wish we could seriously attempt to tone all of it down. It isn't like we only CAN focus on one of them at once, as previously suggested.

Actually, there are plenty of examples beyond just games. Television is a popular offended of the men-get-to-be-average-but-women-must-be-supermodels motif: King of Queens, Modern Family (best exemplified with Jay and Gloria), Still Standing,  Grounded for Life,  etc. It's more acceptable for men to be of average appearance or overweight, but the women are still largely presented as variations of a single theme.

The other problem is that video games are largely still being made with a male audience in mind despite the fact that plenty of women play them.

Well by god we better demand equal representation here. That'll fix everything.

Modifié par slimgrin, 16 septembre 2012 - 07:09 .

[termokanden]

@Highcastle: Yep, I agree. But you will also notice that those examples are not the heroes of their story. They are ridiculous characters.

To get back on topic a bit more, I don't actually think stereotypes are the main reason videogames are seen as childish. I think it's really just matter of older generations seeing it is something their children do to pass the time, therefore it is childish. If this is correct, it should change in time.

In my mind, games are no more or less childish than your average entertainment. You can choose to look at this as a positive statement about videogames or the exact opposite. I'm not really sure. I enjoy playing some games, and I honestly don't care what people think about that.

[Seboist]

highcastle wrote...

The other problem is that video games are largely still being made with a male audience in mind

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

[DarkDragon777]

Because there are games like ME3 on the market.

[Seboist]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Because there are games like ME3 on the market.

Yeah, that scene with the Alliance reps acting like blubbering retards at the feet of the main character to stroke the player's ego is the definition of "childish".

[DarkDragon777]

Seboist wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Because there are games like ME3 on the market.

Yeah, that scene with the Alliance reps acting like blubbering retards at the feet of the main character to stroke the player's ego is the definition of "childish".

Let's not forget: *millions of people are dying by the hour*, *vent-brat dies*....Oh my god!

[highcastle]

Seboist wrote...

highcastle wrote...

The other problem is that video games are largely still being made with a male audience in mind

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

It is when 47% of people playing games are women.

Source.

[Obeded the 2nd]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I love how this thread has just turned into a gender war.

Well it is the off-topic fourm...

[Seboist]

highcastle wrote...

Seboist wrote...

highcastle wrote...

The other problem is that video games are largely still being made with a male audience in mind

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

It is when 47% of people playing games are women.

Source.

Sure, if you include fluff like phone, facebook and flash games. Fact of the matter is that genres like fighting and sports games whose bread and butter are men gain nothing from catering to a neglible female fanbase.

Wake me when women are facing off against the likes of Daigo or Justin Wong in a Street Fighter tournament in sizable numbers.

[Seboist]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Because there are games like ME3 on the market.

Yeah, that scene with the Alliance reps acting like blubbering retards at the feet of the main character to stroke the player's ego is the definition of "childish".

Let's not forget: *millions of people are dying by the hour*, *vent-brat dies*....Oh my god!

That made Morinth in ME2 going after the sole innocent virginal white girl in a hive of scum and criminals look subtle.

[nhcre8tv1]

This, is why games are considered childish, actually. Random people bickering over a trivial and age old problem on the internet together. And they say we're all just brain dead losers, pfft.

[LiquidGrape]

Seboist wrote...

Fact of the matter is that genres like fighting and sports games whose bread and butter are men gain nothing from catering to a neglible female fanbase.

Except, you know, increasing the potential growth of that fanbase. Getting rid of the dudebro mentality with regards to gaming culture and attracting a wider audience seems like a win-win to me.
Unless the people who originally considered themselves part of that audience only did so based on the most inconsequential and base criteria (say, any given female characters' state of undress or the supposed appeal of an all-male compartmentalised subculture), they should be able to remain in that sphere, and the effort to be more inclusive should endear whatever the product might be to people who would otherwise find the associated culture dismissive or outright hostile to their interests.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 16 septembre 2012 - 08:54 .

[highcastle]

Seboist wrote...

Sure, if you include fluff like phone, facebook and flash games. Fact of the matter is that genres like fighting and sports games whose bread and butter are men gain nothing from catering to a neglible female fanbase.

Wake me when women are facing off against the likes of Daigo or Justin Wong in a Street Fighter tournament in sizable numbers.

Congratulations, you just answered the question posed by this thread. Many consider video games to be childish because much of the fanbase is populated by the Only Dudebros Play Games mentality that actively drives away other genders, orientations, and outlooks.

When the fanbase is closed off to "catering to a negligible female fanbase" by,  for instance, not turning every female character into a bikini model, you reduce the video game fandom to a bunch of frat guys with a No Girls Allowed sign posted on their clubhouse. When you shut women out of conversations or deny their frustrations at their depictions in a medium they enjoy, you are being childish.

And also, tournaments are one of the most sexist environments in gaming. Read this article. Then tell me it's still a mystery why women don't turn up in a lot of tournaments. Perhaps it's not that they're not playing the game. Perhaps it's because the environment can be openly hostile to them.