222 réponses à ce sujet

[nhcre8tv1]

RAGING_BULL wrote...
Well the video game crowd is arguably the most vocal in any fictional medium. Though stuff like this is beating the dead horse I will admit. Anybody that thinks we're brain dead losers are just ignorant and no better.

And us being so vocal is an incredible thing, but you have to admit that it doesn't shed the best of lights on us either, no matter how in the right we may be for one thing or another. Personally I believe it's a combination of what we give the public as a view of who we are and the actual nature and premises of the games in the first place make them seem so childish.

[termokanden]

nhcre8tv1 wrote...

This, is why games are considered childish, actually. Random people bickering over a trivial and age old problem on the internet together. And they say we're all just brain dead losers, pfft.

You do realize these discussions are not at all specific to gaming forums, right?

And the problem at hand is not actually trivial.

[Rockworm503]

Sure men can be sexualized like women... But what man would object to that? The big difference is being overly sexualized can hurt women as sexually frustrated man plays game and goes out and sees women in real life like that. As a thread that started out as a simple question on why gamers are seen as immature... the most mature response is to not let any of it bother you.

[bmwcrazy]

Who cares what others think of your hobbies. What's there to be insecure about?

I like to drink beer, watch TV, play golf, play video games, drive expensive cars, wear nice watches, chase little girls....I mean hot wimmins, and collect anime dolls.

Haters always hate, so f*** them.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

This.

I can't stand the argument that men are somehow sexualized just as much as women are in video games.   Yes, men in video games are usually very handsome and chiseled, but this is idealization and not sexualization.  The video game companies do not create these handsome men to be drooled at in a sexual way.  You look at them and go "oh man, they're so cool."

Meanwhile it's not the same thing for women at all. 

The classic argument is easily defeated. Which group is far more attractive to and popular with women? Which group looks more like the stereotypical lead in a movie/comic/video game?

Group A:



or group B:

I... don't understand?

[wsandista]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

This.

I can't stand the argument that men are somehow sexualized just as much as women are in video games.   Yes, men in video games are usually very handsome and chiseled, but this is idealization and not sexualization.  The video game companies do not create these handsome men to be drooled at in a sexual way.  You look at them and go "oh man, they're so cool."

Meanwhile it's not the same thing for women at all. 

The classic argument is easily defeated. Which group is far more attractive to and popular with women? Which group looks more like the stereotypical lead in a movie/comic/video game?

Group A:



or group B:

I... don't understand?

Neither do I.

It generally falls some where in the middle of those two groups. Michael C. Hall is probably the best example of the average of what is attractive to women and what looks more like the lead in a movie or comic.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Seriously, call me when characters like Zevran routinely look anything like the way I described above and I'll buy the equivalency arguments.  Not before.

You can change the size of your penis in Saints Row.

edit: But I suppose that's just more 'male idealization'. It's just hilarious how much 'male idealization' coincides with playins as studs, ain't it? Because clearly every man FANTASIZES about sticking a grenade into the nearest alien's mouth, huh? Am I right? AM I RIGHT OR WHAT?

Modifié par Fisto The Sexbot, 16 septembre 2012 - 09:15 .

[Masha Potato]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...
You can change the size of your penis in Saints Row.

you can change the size of your bulge, for all we know it might just be a sock in there
but i guess the same goes for the boobie slider

[Fisto The Sexbot]

wsandista wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

This.

I can't stand the argument that men are somehow sexualized just as much as women are in video games.   Yes, men in video games are usually very handsome and chiseled, but this is idealization and not sexualization.  The video game companies do not create these handsome men to be drooled at in a sexual way.  You look at them and go "oh man, they're so cool."

Meanwhile it's not the same thing for women at all. 

The classic argument is easily defeated. Which group is far more attractive to and popular with women? Which group looks more like the stereotypical lead in a movie/comic/video game?

Group A:



or group B:

I... don't understand?

Neither do I.

It generally falls some where in the middle of those two groups. Michael C. Hall is probably the best example of the average of what is attractive to women and what looks more like the lead in a movie or comic.

(I just felt the pressing need to remove the first picture). Hell yes, Michael Hall

[Volus Warlord]

Hold on-is this a gender war? I love debating with feminists. Well, some of them.

[HolyJellyfish]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Hold on-is this a gender war? I love debating with feminists. Well, some of them.

I love debating with people who feel men and women should be super equal too. They always seem to counter with reason and logic and smart conversations about how being a douche is on the decline.

Anyways.

A Call to Arms for Decent Men Written by a male gamer for male gamers. I think it does a nice job making some great points.

And Michael C Hall's got nothing on Ryan Gosling. Especially in his part as The Driver. Women want him, and men question their sexuality for him. <3

Modifié par HolyJellyfish, 16 septembre 2012 - 09:22 .

[wsandista]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

This.

I can't stand the argument that men are somehow sexualized just as much as women are in video games.   Yes, men in video games are usually very handsome and chiseled, but this is idealization and not sexualization.  The video game companies do not create these handsome men to be drooled at in a sexual way.  You look at them and go "oh man, they're so cool."

Meanwhile it's not the same thing for women at all. 

The classic argument is easily defeated. Which group is far more attractive to and popular with women? Which group looks more like the stereotypical lead in a movie/comic/video game?

Group A:



or group B:

I... don't understand?

Neither do I.

It generally falls some where in the middle of those two groups. Michael C. Hall is probably the best example of the average of what is attractive to women and what looks more like the lead in a movie or comic.

(I just felt the pressing need to remove the first picture). Hell yes, Michael Hall

(I felt the need to remove the last) Yes, he does look the most like what I see in movies and a women's ideal man. In good shape, but not freakishly swoll, good looking but not feminine. Also it is the most common look for actors outside of action flicks. Not to mention on acting ability alone, he destroys all pics posted.

http://t3.gstatic.co...yj2O3n3WG196hiA

^Much more common to see in movies than A or B.

HolyJellyfish wrote...

And Michael C Hall's got nothing on Ryan Gosling. Especially in his part as The Driver. Women want him, and men question their sexuality for him. <3

Forgot all about him. Falls into the same category.

http://t2.gstatic.co...60T1jouteP9LZLA

Modifié par wsandista, 16 septembre 2012 - 09:25 .

[LiquidGrape]

I think you are completely misunderstanding the argument hoorayforicecream posed.
The point was that the likes of Robert Pattinson have a considerably larger female fanbase than the Dwayne Johnsons of the world. Ergo, the notion that male characters in games, who typically more closely resemble the latter, were designed for the purposes of female wish fulfillment seems unlikely; rather, they are more likely to have been conceived with a predominantly male audience in mind, who traditionally have idealised the kind of hyper-masculinity such figures describe.

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Seriously, call me when characters like Zevran routinely look anything like the way I described above and I'll buy the equivalency arguments.  Not before.

You can change the size of your penis in Saints Row.

edit: But I suppose that's just more 'male idealization'. It's just hilarious how much 'male idealization' coincides with playins as studs, ain't it? Because clearly every man FANTASIZES about sticking a grenade into the nearest alien's mouth, huh? Am I right? AM I RIGHT OR WHAT?

Increasing the size of your penis in Saints Row is done at the prerogative of the player. It isn't the kind of imposed sexualisation you see applied to female characters in games. Furthermore, and crucially, the possibility of increasing the size of ones member in Saints Row really only speaks to the ego of the player. Now, in a game such as Saints Row, which thrives in the utter audaciousness of the ridiculous display it provides, it would be unfair to assign any real meaning to the mechanic beyond shock value. But to paraquote Freud - it is a truth universally acknowledged that most men are in want of possessing a big dick.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 16 septembre 2012 - 09:49 .

[Volus Warlord]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Hold on-is this a gender war? I love debating with feminists. Well, some of them.

I love debating with people who feel men and women should be super equal too. They always seem to counter with reason and logic and smart conversations about how being a douche is on the decline.

*snip*

Hey now, no need to be so touchy. Or underhanded.

To be frank, feminists tend to be a tad bit confrontational.. and that is something I admire. It keeps things interesting, it exposes and reveals things that others would keep concealed. Views are often a different story, but hey, such is life, and such is part of what keeps things interesting. 

I'd take a feminist over a "Sob Sob why can't we all get along" doormat type. They annoy the hell out of me. I sure some find that attitude respectable, but I am not some. If that makes me a douche, I am fine with it.  Douche power. 

[Inquisitor Recon]

Oh look, two hours for a thread to go into full feminist "games are only made with men in mind" crazy mode. Honestly, what do you expect?

[termokanden]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

A Call to Arms for Decent Men Written by a male gamer for male gamers. I think it does a nice job making some great points.

Interesting.  I disagree with the tone a bit. I never treated women poorly, online or in real life, and yet I clearly have extremely poor people skills. He is mistaken if he thinks the two things are the same. That said, I know just the people he's talking about, and I hate them just as much as he does.

Xbox Live is a wretched hive of scum and villainy if I ever saw one. On an average night, I report at least a couple of outspoken racists.

I don't really know what to do except report them, but I sure hate when games have no obvious way to do this. The Secret World, for example, does not police its community nearly enough. When I played it the first night, there was at least 30 minutes of nonstop hate speech and people were leaving in disgust (well I did anyway). I have never seen anything as bad in other MMOs.

You could say that this reflects poorly on online gaming but actually I don't think that's it at all. It reflects poorly on online communities (to which most modern people belong). We're living in a world where people will sit there and encourage someone to kill themselves and cheer when it happens. This isn't gaming's fault. This is what the human race is like when granted anonymity. Aren't you happy to be a part of it?

And Michael C Hall's got nothing on Ryan Gosling. Especially in his part as The Driver. Women want him, and men question their sexuality for him. <3

Ryan Gosling is alright, but somehow he's a bit too... well, he's a bit too much for me.

Modifié par termokanden, 16 septembre 2012 - 10:15 .

[Joy Divison]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Increasing the size of your penis in Saints Row is done at the prerogative of the player. It isn't the kind of imposed sexualisation you see applied to female characters in games. Furthermore, and crucially, the possibility of increasing the size of ones member in Saints Row really only speaks to the ego of the player. Now, in a game such as Saints Row, which thrives in the utter audaciousness of the ridiculous display it provides, it would be unfair to assign any real meaning to the mechanic beyond shock value. But to paraquote Freud - it is a truth universally acknowledged that most men are in want of possessing a big dick.

Yes...so what's your take if the gamer is female?

Edit: Just to be clear, I do understand, agree with, and think you've eloquently stated your point.  Just stirring the ****...

Modifié par Joy Divison, 16 septembre 2012 - 09:57 .

[slimgrin]

LiquidGrape wrote...

I think you are completely misunderstanding the argument hoorayforicecream posed.
The point was that the likes of Robert Pattinson have a considerably larger female fanbase than the Dwayne Johnsons of the world. Ergo, the notion that male characters in games, who typically more closely resemble the latter, were designed for the purposes of female wish fulfillment seems unlikely; rather, they are more likely to have been conceived with a predominantly male audience in mind, who traditionally have idealised the kind of hyper-masculinity such figures describe.

The point wasn't missed, it's barely on topic.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

LiquidGrape wrote...

I think you are completely misunderstanding the argument hoorayforicecream posed.
The point was that the likes of Robert Pattinson have a considerably larger female fanbase than the Dwayne Johnsons of the world. Ergo, the notion that male characters in games, who typically more closely resemble the latter, were designed for the purposes of female wish fulfillment seems unlikely; rather, they are more likely to have been conceived with a predominantly male audience in mind, who traditionally have idealised the kind of hyper-masculinity such figures describe.

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Seriously, call me when characters like Zevran routinely look anything like the way I described above and I'll buy the equivalency arguments.  Not before.

You can change the size of your penis in Saints Row.

edit: But I suppose that's just more 'male idealization'. It's just hilarious how much 'male idealization' coincides with playins as studs, ain't it? Because clearly every man FANTASIZES about sticking a grenade into the nearest alien's mouth, huh? Am I right? AM I RIGHT OR WHAT?

Increasing the size of your penis in Saints Row is done at the prerogative of the player. It isn't the kind of imposed sexualisation you see applied to female characters in games. Furthermore, and crucially, the possibility of increasing the size of ones member in Saints Row really only speaks to the ego of the player. Now, in a game such as Saints Row, which thrives in the utter audaciousness of the ridiculous display it provides, it would be unfair to assign any real meaning to the mechanic beyond shock value. But to paraquote Freud - it is a truth universally acknowledged that most men are in want of possessing a big dick.

*facepalm*

[HolyJellyfish]

ReconTeam wrote...

Oh look, two hours for a thread to go into full feminist "games are only made with men in mind" crazy mode. Honestly, what do you expect?

OH NO. STRAW FEMINISTS IN THE CLOSET. Bringing the crazy since invented by peeps who refuse to understand the definition of feminism since... oh.... forever.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

ReconTeam wrote...

Oh look, two hours for a thread to go into full feminist "games are only made with men in mind" crazy mode. Honestly, what do you expect?

I expect feminists to deal with actual cases of mistreatment of women. Ideally I would want them to better care for people's rights in general because I think trying to protect gender rights only because you are part of that gender is more divisive for society than helpful.

More than that I just want them to leave video games alone.

[LiquidGrape]

ReconTeam wrote...

Oh look, two hours for a thread to go into full feminist "games are only made with men in mind" crazy mode. Honestly, what do you expect?

Your customary blanket statement has been noted, but I don't think anyone's actually suggested anything of the kind.

I believe what people are saying is that it is disappointingly often the case due to a pervasive and historically enforced cross-media tendency of assigning female characters particular (and problematic) purposes. And when such is the case, it is both painfully obvious and wholly unnecessary.

Joy Divison wrote...

Yes...so what's your take if the gamer is female?

Potentially an element of attraction, potentially an element of buying into that spirit of audaciousness to which I referred earlier. There's a plethora of possiblities, really, and it isn't crucial to the debate. The only reason I addressed that point in the first place was that it seemed to confuse the discussion regarding imposed sexualisation.

I do believe it should technically be a lot harder to apply that debate to games wherein the player is allowed to customise their own character, because in those cases each creation will inescapably speak to some kind of indulgence on the player's part, regardless of the player's sex.
That said, however, in virtually any game you can pick out you are significantly more likely to be able to create a
huge-breasted female character clad in little more than a glorified sling-bikini than you are to create an equivalent male character with a bulging crotch and complementary assless chaps.
The design and assets of mainstream games are simply quite noticeably looking in a very particular direction.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 16 septembre 2012 - 10:26 .

[Fisto The Sexbot]

LiquidGrape wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Oh look, two hours for a thread to go into full feminist "games are only made with men in mind" crazy mode. Honestly, what do you expect?

Your customary blanket statement has been noted, but I don't think anyone's actually suggested anything of the kind.

I believe what people are saying is that it is disappointingly often the case due to a pervasive and historically enforced cross-media tendency of assigning female characters particular (and problematic) purposes. And when such is the case, it is both painfully obvious and wholly unnecessary.

Joy Divison wrote...

Yes...so what's your take if the gamer is female?

Potentially an element of attraction, potentially an element of buying into that spirit of audaciousness to which I referred earlier. There's a plethora of possiblities, really, and it isn't crucial to the debate. The only reason I addressed that point in the first place was that it seemed to confuse the discussion regarding imposed sexualisation.

I do believe it should technically be a lot harder to apply that debate to games wherein the player is allowed to customise their own character, because in those cases each creation will inescapably speak to some kind of indulgence on the player's part, regardless of the player's sex.
That said, however, in virtually any game you can pick out you are significantly more likely to be able to create a
huge-breasted female character clad in little more than a glorified sling-bikini than you are to create an equivalent male character with a bulging crotch and complementary assless chaps.
The design and assets of mainstream games are simply quite noticeably looking in a very particular direction.

Names. Most games that let you create good-looking women also let you create studs.

[HolyJellyfish]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Oh look, two hours for a thread to go into full feminist "games are only made with men in mind" crazy mode. Honestly, what do you expect?

I expect feminists to deal with actual cases of mistreatment of women. Ideally I would want them to better care for people's rights in general because I think trying to protect gender rights only because you are part of that gender is more divisive for society than helpful.

More than that I just want them to leave video games alone.

Actually, there's lots of research about how sexism hurts men just as much as women. You know. By putting dudes up to this crazy masculine standard... where some dudes want to just stay home, bake cake, wear pink, and not feel unmanly for doing so.

There's also a lot of research about how duh ladiez love playing duh videogamez, and that its not just a dude playground. And more research about how most game developers are by large majority male and white, hence why most developers only hire more male, white employees, perpetuating a very gender-unfriendly playground and cutting out girls from the boys only club.

You see. You say 'I expect feminists to do ..... blah blah blah' and I'm HOPING to read 'I expect PEOPLE who share the common interest of GOOD WILL to BLAH BLAH BLAH'.

Anywhoo. There are lots of women who enjoy playing videogames, and these are valid concerns of theirs and men who support said women.

Then there are a lot of BOYS (and I emphasize the word BOYS because what MAN would act this way?) who are threatened, angry, upset, would rather nothing change, refuse to listen, attack, ignore, create these ridiculous straw feminist arguments, and would rather stay in their BOYS-ONLY club forever where women feel uncomfortable and are generally denied the same fantasies and privileges they are 'entitled' to. There are also a few GIRLS who do the same thing, since they perscribe to this backward, immature, childish, mean way - and gain power within the BOYS-ONLY club for these rules of exclusion.

I could go ooon, but it has been said so many times, over and over and over again in different ways, that the only way to really change the argument is by hiring more female developers and disappointing the poor old BOYS ONLY club in a good few years or so.