222 réponses à ce sujet

[RedArmyShogun]

Lol what is this crap I'm reading? Oh lawdy BSN and the people you attract.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Oh look, two hours for a thread to go into full feminist "games are only made with men in mind" crazy mode. Honestly, what do you expect?

OH NO. STRAW FEMINISTS IN THE CLOSET. Bringing the crazy since invented by peeps who refuse to understand the definition of feminism since... oh.... forever.

It's very difficult for me to make a distinction between a straw feminist or a real feminist because many people arguing for women's rights tend to employ the same arguments as the caricatures that satirize their movement.

What am I supposed to think when one of them retorts that "men want to have a big dick" in response to an argument about sexualization? What would even count as sexualization for men in media then, because we really don't have any other 'tools' left.

[termokanden]

You sure say DUDE a lot Religious Invertebrate, but hey, otherwise it was an awesome post. Now to bake a pink cake and wear it!

Also, I don't know if this thread will ever get back on track. I still don't think gaming is any more or less mature than other forms of entertainment. It comes in many varieties and isn't inherently childish or mature.

Modifié par termokanden, 16 septembre 2012 - 10:44 .

[Volus Warlord]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

*snip*
Then there are a lot of BOYS (and I emphasize the word BOYS because what MAN would act this way?) who are threatened, angry, upset, would rather nothing change, refuse to listen, attack, ignore, create these ridiculous straw feminist arguments, and would rather stay in their BOYS-ONLY club forever where women feel uncomfortable and are generally denied the same fantasies and privileges they are 'entitled' to. There are also a few GIRLS who do the same thing, since they perscribe to this backward, immature, childish, mean way - and gain power within the BOYS-ONLY club for these rules of exclusion.

*snip*

We do this because the ridiculous straw feminist and the ridiculous straw misogynist can be combined to form the epitome of perfect and passionate HATE SEX. 


P.S. I manage to spell misogynist wrong every damn time I first attempt to type it.

[HolyJellyfish]

greengoron89 wrote...

^Then please, stop saying it - you've derailed this thread long enough with your vile political agenda.

Nah. I'm having too much fun pointing out holes in silly arguments that make no logical sense in the grander scheme of things.

Like 'vile political agenda'. That's funny, considering this statement suggests voicing concerns about equality, harassment, and having a conversation where I'd think it'd be awesome of dudes and chicks high-five'd eachother after a good game of Halo is considered a vile political agenda.

come on man.

is it really that threatening to have some ladies and dudes talk about how cool it would be to see more diversity and games, with different interests being portrayed?

is that really a vile political agenda?

[LiquidGrape]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

I do believe it should technically be a lot harder to apply that debate to games wherein the player is allowed to customise their own character, because in those cases each creation will inescapably speak to some kind of indulgence on the player's part, regardless of the player's sex.
That said, however, in virtually any game you can pick out you are significantly more likely to be able to create a
huge-breasted female character clad in little more than a glorified sling-bikini than you are to create an equivalent male character with a bulging crotch and complementary assless chaps.
The design and assets of mainstream games are simply quite noticeably looking in a very particular direction.

Names. Most games that let you create good-looking women also let you create studs.

You misunderstand. This isn't a matter of making Good-Looking Characters™. It is a matter of the evident schism in male and female character design in games.

For example:

Male armor in the MMORPG "Tera".
Female armor in the same game.

Let's get even more specific. Here is the Black Mageweave armor set found in World of Warcraft worn by a male and female character respectively.

Exhibit A.
Exhibit B.

City of Heroes would only allow female characters a single bodyshape. Not too difficult to guess what manner of shape that was.

Hell, we've even got a couple of decent examples in Mass Effect.

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

What am I supposed to think when one of them retorts that "men want to have a big dick" in response to an argument about sexualization? What would even count as sexualization for men in media then, because we really don't have any other 'tools' left.

Did you even read the paragraph which preceded that intentionally hyperbolic punchline? I detailed why the penile customisation in Saints Row wasn't really a matter of sexualisation of men comparable to the sexualisation of women in games. I hope at least my response above makes the point clearer.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 16 septembre 2012 - 10:58 .

[Rockworm503]

You sound like a hippy dude.

[HolyJellyfish]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Oh look, two hours for a thread to go into full feminist "games are only made with men in mind" crazy mode. Honestly, what do you expect?

OH NO. STRAW FEMINISTS IN THE CLOSET. Bringing the crazy since invented by peeps who refuse to understand the definition of feminism since... oh.... forever.

It's very difficult for me to make a distinction between a straw feminist or a real feminist because many people arguing for women's rights tend to employ the same arguments as the caricatures that satirize their movement.

What am I supposed to think when one of them retorts that "men want to have a big dick" in response to an argument about sexualization? What would even count as sexualization for men in media then, because we really don't have any other 'tools' left.

Here. I'll help you with the distinction -

STRAW FEMINISTS DON'T EXIST.

And - REAL FEMINISTS ARE NOT STRAW FEMINISTS.

And where on earth are you finding these people who employ these same caricature arguments? I mean, give me some links bro. show me some proof. I've never met them, and I've been a feminist since the day I was born. I hate to break it to you, but they don't exist. They were invented by people who can't come up with a good argument.

Y'know. Cuz... the definition of a feminist is someone who wants equality. You can be a dude and be a feminist. All of my friends are feminists, male and female. I make it a point not to make un-feminist friends. They tend to treat women really badly, and treat dudes super badly. I like to call them douchebags.

And what are you talking about 'Men want a big dick'? What I heard was, a lot of developers are really limiting themselves to drawing this one ideal of main-dude-character. It doesn't men all men idealize it. Just the ones who are getting paid to draw it.

You should consider joining up with feminists, y'know. We hate it when people say All Men Want Big Dicks too! We can't stand that stuff. Seems you gotta lot in common with 'em.

Hell. Maybe you are a closet feminist.

[HolyJellyfish]

greengoron89 wrote...

The language you use betrays any notion that you're trying to have a civil and friendly conversation, I'm afraid. You've got an axe to grind with the opposite sex, and it shows - and considering your overall disposition, I think any "friendly" conversation you might attempt to have with members of the opposite sex would quickly devolve into you going on a political tirade over some perceived slight against your gender, which would probably prevent anyone involved from engaging you in any kind of "friendly" conversation with you again.

Where are you pulling this dude?

If I had an axe to grind with the opposite sex, I would not keep my job.

I'm sarcastic. Yeah.

And all these comments are directed to both dudes and girls. not opposite gender specific.

Would it hurt to mention I'm a guy?

You are so cute.

EDIT ::

Oh I can see how you'd be confused. I'm using my GF's profile. We share the same origin account. She had to show me this BSN post and what a load of BS some people are throwing in the air. I couldn't help myself.

Modifié par HolyJellyfish, 16 septembre 2012 - 10:55 .

[Volus Warlord]

Is this relevant?

[RedArmyShogun]

My Gosh Batman! ITS THE ANTI-MAN MAN! Quickly! Throw a subscription of manly monthly manlyness Magazine!

Modifié par RedArmyShogun, 16 septembre 2012 - 11:03 .

[termokanden]

I think this just about sums it up at this point

[HolyJellyfish]

greengoron89 wrote...

I think you're lying - perhaps I hit a little closer to home than you liked?

Either way, have fun with your anti-male... err, I mean "feminist" campaign.

Anyways, Greengoron89 - I'm sorry, but not all guys share your opinion. Because we're men. not boys. and we don't feel threatened by these discussions, because we know these discussions need to happen for positive change to happen.

You say that I'm lying. And I'm saying that you feel super insecure about sharing your all boys club. Hate to break it to you, but we don't want your kind in our space. You should've gotten over the All Girls Are Made of Cooties when you were 11. But instead you changed the argument from All Girls are Made of Cooties to All Feminists Are Evil And Angry And UNWANTED HERE.

Unfortunately, you fail to realize that you still sound like an 11 year old.

As a straight guy, I love being able to play videogames with women. And the way to do that is only if they are in a comfortable environment where they can state their opinions and not be verbally attacked by a bunch of boys who feel like everything is peachy and those women's opinions are invalid - since their language is A) Too aggressive Too whiny C) Unfriendly D) The list goes on and on until Women Just Can't Win No Matter What They Say.
So, maybe you should re-evaluate a few things instead of accusing me of lying just to make yourself feel even more valid about acting like an 11 year old.
I'll stay over here, with my gf and our awesome lady gamer friends as we keep talking about these issues. And you can hang out with the boys club and talk about how silly we are for bringing up these discussions.
One of us is going to go far for being able to get along with oh.... fifty percent of our population. The other is going to sit in front of his computer and feel super powerful about cutting down feminists on a gaming forum to validate their privilege and continue to do so since they just are unable to feel powerful otherwise.

As such, I'm done with this conversation and I'm going to let my gf get her work done.

Oh check that out. She just high-fived me. Booyah.

[billy the squid]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Oh look, two hours for a thread to go into full feminist "games are only made with men in mind" crazy mode. Honestly, what do you expect?

I expect feminists to deal with actual cases of mistreatment of women. Ideally I would want them to better care for people's rights in general because I think trying to protect gender rights only because you are part of that gender is more divisive for society than helpful.

More than that I just want them to leave video games alone.

Actually, there's lots of research about how sexism hurts men just as much as women. You know. By putting dudes up to this crazy masculine standard... where some dudes want to just stay home, bake cake, wear pink, and not feel unmanly for doing so.

There's also a lot of research about how duh ladiez love playing duh videogamez, and that its not just a dude playground. And more research about how most game developers are by large majority male and white, hence why most developers only hire more male, white employees, perpetuating a very gender-unfriendly playground and cutting out girls from the boys only club.

*snip*

I could go ooon, but it has been said so many times, over and over and over again in different ways, that the only way to really change the argument is by hiring more female developers and disappointing the poor old BOYS ONLY club in a good few years or so.

Yeeeah, hiring has got nothing to do with skill sets, education, experience or contacts in the sector. It's all about what's between your legs. Hahaha wow. I thought the alien abduction advocates were bad

Being white, male in my 20's I'd be a perfect candidate right, I'm a shoe in? Pffft, not a chance in hell. You know why? I can't draw to save my life, I know fuk all about coding and programs, I have no knowledge of graphical design or systems analysis. I would be useless.

Save the conspiracy theories, and bake me some muffins hon.

Perception of who gamers are and who will buy the game is what shifts what is made. Not just who is behind it developing it.

Modifié par billy the squid, 16 septembre 2012 - 11:17 .

[Volus Warlord]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

I think you're lying - perhaps I hit a little closer to home than you liked?

Either way, have fun with your anti-male... err, I mean "feminist" campaign.

Anyways, Greengoron89 - I'm sorry, but not all guys share your opinion. Because we're men. not boys. and we don't feel threatened by these discussions, because we know these discussions need to happen for positive change to happen.

You say that I'm lying. And I'm saying that you feel super insecure about sharing your all boys club. Hate to break it to you, but we don't want your kind in our space. You should've gotten over the All Girls Are Made of Cooties when you were 11. But instead you changed the argument from All Girls are Made of Cooties to All Feminists Are Evil And Angry And UNWANTED HERE.

Unfortunately, you fail to realize that you still sound like an 11 year old.

As a straight guy, I love being able to play videogames with women. And the way to do that is only if they are in a comfortable environment where they can state their opinions and not be verbally attacked by a bunch of boys who feel like everything is peachy and those women's opinions are invalid - since their language is A) Too aggressive Too whiny C) Unfriendly D) The list goes on and on until Women Just Can't Win No Matter What They Say.
So, maybe you should re-evaluate a few things instead of accusing me of lying just to make yourself feel even more valid about acting like an 11 year old.
I'll stay over here, with my gf and our awesome lady gamer friends as we keep talking about these issues. And you can hang out with the boys club and talk about how silly we are for bringing up these discussions.
One of us is going to go far for being able to get along with oh.... fifty percent of our population. The other is going to sit in front of his computer and feel super powerful about cutting down feminists on a gaming forum to validate their privilege and continue to do so since they just are unable to feel powerful otherwise.

As such, I'm done with this conversation and I'm going to let my gf get her work done.

Oh check that out. She just high-fived me. Booyah.

Were you just putting on a show for the lady or did she threaten to castrate you?

[Fisto The Sexbot]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

I do believe it should technically be a lot harder to apply that debate to games wherein the player is allowed to customise their own character, because in those cases each creation will inescapably speak to some kind of indulgence on the player's part, regardless of the player's sex.
That said, however, in virtually any game you can pick out you are significantly more likely to be able to create a
huge-breasted female character clad in little more than a glorified sling-bikini than you are to create an equivalent male character with a bulging crotch and complementary assless chaps.
The design and assets of mainstream games are simply quite noticeably looking in a very particular direction.

Names. Most games that let you create good-looking women also let you create studs.

You misunderstand. This isn't a matter of making Good-Looking Characters™. It is a matter of the evident schism in male and female character design in games.

For example:

Male armor in the MMORPG "Tera".
Female armor in the same game.

Let's get even more specific. Here is the Black Mageweave armor set found in World of Warcraft worn by a male and female character respectively.

Exhibit A.
Exhibit B.

City of Heroes would only allow female characters a single bodyshape. Not too difficult to guess what manner of shape that was.

Hell, we've even got a couple of decent examples in Mass Effect.

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

What am I supposed to think when one of them retorts that "men want to have a big dick" in response to an argument about sexualization? What would even count as sexualization for men in media then, because we really don't have any other 'tools' left.

Did you even read the paragraph which preceded that intentionally hyperbolic punchline? I detailed why the penile customisation in Saints Row wasn't really a matter of sexualisation of men comparable to the sexualisation of women in games. I hope at least my response above makes the point clearer.

I don't see a problem with the outfit from Mass Effect.

And Tera... you can play as a loli in that game so I wouldn't make much of a point out of holding anything you find in the game to rigorous standards. It's really the exception, not the rule... and it's not even a Western game.

If you don't find the sexualization of men in Saints Row comparable to that of women then could you give me an example of 'adequate' male sexualization in video games? The fact that video games in general do not show entirely naked people sort of undermines the purpose of this literal dick measuring contest.

Really I find a lot of things to complain about in video games today... but gender is not the issue here.

[HolyJellyfish]

Volus Warlord wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

I think you're lying - perhaps I hit a little closer to home than you liked?

Either way, have fun with your anti-male... err, I mean "feminist" campaign.

Anyways, Greengoron89 - I'm sorry, but not all guys share your opinion. Because we're men. not boys. and we don't feel threatened by these discussions, because we know these discussions need to happen for positive change to happen.

You say that I'm lying. And I'm saying that you feel super insecure about sharing your all boys club. Hate to break it to you, but we don't want your kind in our space. You should've gotten over the All Girls Are Made of Cooties when you were 11. But instead you changed the argument from All Girls are Made of Cooties to All Feminists Are Evil And Angry And UNWANTED HERE.

Unfortunately, you fail to realize that you still sound like an 11 year old.

As a straight guy, I love being able to play videogames with women. And the way to do that is only if they are in a comfortable environment where they can state their opinions and not be verbally attacked by a bunch of boys who feel like everything is peachy and those women's opinions are invalid - since their language is A) Too aggressive Too whiny C) Unfriendly D) The list goes on and on until Women Just Can't Win No Matter What They Say.
So, maybe you should re-evaluate a few things instead of accusing me of lying just to make yourself feel even more valid about acting like an 11 year old.
I'll stay over here, with my gf and our awesome lady gamer friends as we keep talking about these issues. And you can hang out with the boys club and talk about how silly we are for bringing up these discussions.
One of us is going to go far for being able to get along with oh.... fifty percent of our population. The other is going to sit in front of his computer and feel super powerful about cutting down feminists on a gaming forum to validate their privilege and continue to do so since they just are unable to feel powerful otherwise.

As such, I'm done with this conversation and I'm going to let my gf get her work done.

Oh check that out. She just high-fived me. Booyah.

Were you just putting on a show for the lady or did she threaten to castrate you?

She was amused that these forum kept talking about how all men think a certain way and at all the eye rolls once several feminists had some points to make. I wanted to say something because I'm tired of feminists getting an unfair rep.

I'm a guy. I'm a feminist. Because I love women. It seems fair to say.

But BSN is a hard horse to hit, as is any other forum. Angry sexists have few places to run, forums one of the few. After reading this article a few days ago, I got really tired of seeing some of the BS a lot of men let these boys get away with. If we want comfortable, secure spaces where men and women can get along, then its really our responsibility to cut a lot of this spew short.

So I wanted to say my piece, because I wasn't just going to look over her shoulder and do nothing.

[Straw Nihilist]

Feminists = HATE SEX

What's the problem?

[hoorayforicecream]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

If you don't find the sexualization of men in Saints Row comparable to that of women then could you give me an example of 'adequate' male sexualization in video games? The fact that video games in general do not show entirely naked people sort of undermines the purpose of this literal dick measuring contest.

You asked for it!






There you go. Final Fantasy XIV, showing us how sexualizing men is really done.

[HolyJellyfish]

billy the squid wrote...

Yeeeah, hiring has got nothing to do with skill sets, education, experience or contacts in the sector. It's all about what's between your legs. Hahaha wow. I thought the alien abduction advocates were bad

Being white, male in my 20's I'd be a perfect candidate right, I'm a shoe in? Pffft, not a chance in hell. You know why? I can't draw to save my life, I know fuk all about coding and programs, I have no knowledge of graphical design or systems analysis. I would be useless.

Save the conspiracy theories, and bake me some muffins hon.

Perception of who gamers are and who will buy the game is what shifts what is made. Not who is behind it developing it.

You're missing the point.

Check this out. It clarifies what I meant.

You need to hire developers that aren't A) White and Male if you expect the standards of gaming to get better, and if you want a wider audience. It makes sense from a marketting point of view, and there is social responsibility involved.

[Volus Warlord]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Yeeeah, hiring has got nothing to do with skill sets, education, experience or contacts in the sector. It's all about what's between your legs. Hahaha wow. I thought the alien abduction advocates were bad

Being white, male in my 20's I'd be a perfect candidate right, I'm a shoe in? Pffft, not a chance in hell. You know why? I can't draw to save my life, I know fuk all about coding and programs, I have no knowledge of graphical design or systems analysis. I would be useless.

Save the conspiracy theories, and bake me some muffins hon.

Perception of who gamers are and who will buy the game is what shifts what is made. Not who is behind it developing it.

You're missing the point.

Check this out. It clarifies what I meant.

You need to hire developers that aren't A) White and Male if you expect the standards of gaming to get better, and if you want a wider audience. It makes sense from a marketting point of view, and there is social responsibility involved.

Start an all-girl dev studio then. I'd be curious to see what you churn out.