49 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow Fox]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

Being a two-handed warrior in DAO was virtually unplayable, even with the smaller groups of enemies. But it was one of the best classes in DA2. Don't touch it.

Really? I didn't know I went throught two nightmare playthroughs with a virtually unplayable build. I guess I did it wrong, I mean, with all my AoE attacks, not being able to be knocked down, and great single target damage as well. 

I suppose there was a slew of complaints from the fine people of whatever local SCA chapter about the two-handed speed in DAO, but for me it allowed me to see and feel a bit of the gravity of the blows I was delivering. And given the choice, that is infinitely perferable for me to the cardboard wieght toys that, say, Fenris, was whipping around. 

I specifically did a two-handeed warrior playthrough in DAO just to counter some people on a different forum that were claiming it was impossible.

It's actually a pretty powerful build if done right IMO.

I love two handed heavy hitters it's generally my favorite class and  the first class I play in RPGS that said my mage Hawke was a  nigh unkillable monster who made Orisino,Meredith and the mature high dragon his ****  in act 3 compared to  the Warrior Hawke I first rolled. and I had a much easier time late game with my human rogue over my Dwarf warrior in Origins*infact I'm rolling another Rogue an elven one because of the blast I had with my human one* that said warriors still get the coolest gear.

[Cultist]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The base speed is perfectly realistic IMO, if you don't button mash -- as I think that speeds up how fast the next animation triggers. If you end up enhancing the speed with Haste, passive abilities, and enchanted items and declare it not realistic that's... really your own fault.

I recommend the OP watch this video, as the speed at which the swords in the video are swung are, from my recollection of DAII, the same speed as the DAII animations when not using any types of "increase attack speed" enchantments/spells/abilities.

That video actually supplements my positions as I never spoke against swing speed but intervals between swings. The inertion could be seen in this video - man show us single swings but not several at once.
Two-handers are fast when people twist them to parry incoming blows but when it comes to hits inertion forces us to slow pace even with 2-3 kg sword. So when we talk about a chain of swings, here real problem with 2-H weapons arises.

[Sir JK]

Like others mentioned, and this is the really unintitive part, is that twohanded swords are really fast weapons (like all twohanders). They're actually not that much heavier than one-handed swords, usually less than 0,5 kg (1 pound). They're longer, yes, but also narrower and thinner. Compared to length, a onehanded sword contains more metal than a twohander. The reason is that in combat, the fastest weapon wins (actually the longest, then the fastest). Weight means nothing,

The video in the OP can seem unrealistic, but compare it with these two videos:
First we have, my sources tell me, some of the best reenactors of renaissance (twohanders are renaissance weaponds, not mediveal) german fencing. They are purposfully going slow to demonstrate the various manouvers from their fencing manual and in order not to hurt one another. But the swords are very much real, albeit not sharp (grabbing the blade is still a perfectly viable tactic though).

The other video is the final in twohanded sword fighting in the respected Swordfish tournament. Here they are not holding back the speed and are very much using real swords (note the width of them) and it's actually not that much slower than the video in the OP.

That's not saying they're all the same. For one, the swings in DA2 is much too wide compared to these two examples. That gives the illusion of moving the blade too fast, even if it isn't. In real fighting moving the blade that much to the side leaves you open to counterattacks and is really dangerous. This coupled with the standard artistic style of fantasy provides is with vastly oversized weapons (note, this applies to all weapons) eaily makes combat seem like it's moving too fast. Even if it isn't.

[ShaggyWolf]

Honestly I thought the mechanics, the pacing, the feel, and the look of the combat were the best things about DA2, it was really fun. If there's one thing I'd hope that remains mostly unchanged in DA3, it's the combat, 2h weapon stlye included.

Edit: Besides, I really don't care how historically accurate Hawke's 2h fighting isn't. This is a Bioware fantasy RPG. I play them because I want to do epic things, and be freed of the rules that bind me irl. If you want to make the 2h weapons bland and slow, I expect that DA3 should also have shallow backstabbing lying LI's that break up with you after a week of in-game time, or just friendzone the PC from the beginning, the Orlesian government should confiscate your belongings and gold if you become too wealthy and successful, if you die the game is uninstalled from your computer, you get tired and have to sleep if you wear heavy armor for too long, and you get nightmares and eventually go insane after your character sees a Broodmother the first time.

Because that would be realistic.

Modifié par Valadras21, 16 septembre 2012 - 08:56 .

[Wulfram]

2 handed warriors in DA:O are powerful, but heavily dependant on good armour for their defence. If you don't have Blood Dragon armour you'll spend a lot of time dying before you find something good. And you need to be quite active in controlling the character, in order to trigger talents at the right time to speed up attacks

[Realmzmaster]

I have stated before on these forums is how much realism does the gamer want in a fantasy game? The amount of realism will differ from gamer to gamer. Even in this thread some gamers find the speed of the two handed swords in DA2 to be fine and others do not. Some gamers state that the swords are over-sized which I can agree with when it comes to width but not length and weight.

[TEWR]

Cultist wrote...

That video actually supplements my positions as I never spoke against swing speed but intervals between swings. The inertion could be seen in this video - man show us single swings but not several at once.
Two-handers are fast when people twist them to parry incoming blows but when it comes to hits inertion forces us to slow pace even with 2-3 kg sword. So when we talk about a chain of swings, here real problem with 2-H weapons arises.

Ah okay, I see your position in a clearer light now. The speed of the swing is fine, it's the speed between swings that isn't.

Hmm.. well to that I'd have to say that I think I can agree on a slight difference in speed between swings, so long as the speed of each swing is the same -- unless the characters use up all of their stamina.

As a point of interest, perhaps you should replace the video in your OP with one of DAII's Greatsword animations in the beginning of the game -- where the party is at level one and has no attack speed boosts of any kind, unlike the video of Reaver Hawke on Haste.

[Blastback]

I'd say there is a good middle ground in weapon speed between the two games. For all weapon styles

[wsandista]

Blastback wrote...

I'd say there is a good middle ground in weapon speed between the two games. For all weapon styles

I think taking the basic attack cooldown in DAO and multiplying it by .75 or .7 is just about perfect.

Dual wield: 1 attack every 1.125 seconds
One-handed(includes shield): 1 attack every 1.5 seconds
Two-handed: 1 attack every 1.75 seconds
Archery(longbow, shortbow would be less, crossbow more): 1 attack every 1.5 seconds
Staff: 1 attack every 1.5 seconds

Also, please do not bring back speed modifers for most weapons(daggers, crossbows, and short bows I'm ok with).
For those special cases...
Daggers: -.3 seconds
Shortbow: -.2 seconds
Crossbow: +.3 seconds

The above assumes that

1. Daggers have the least base damage of one-handed weapons(like in DAO)
2. Shortbows are lower base damage than longbows
3. Crossbows have a higher base damage than longbows

[Welsh Inferno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Cultist wrote...

That video actually supplements my positions as I never spoke against swing speed but intervals between swings. The inertion could be seen in this video - man show us single swings but not several at once.
Two-handers are fast when people twist them to parry incoming blows but when it comes to hits inertion forces us to slow pace even with 2-3 kg sword. So when we talk about a chain of swings, here real problem with 2-H weapons arises.

Ah okay, I see your position in a clearer light now. The speed of the swing is fine, it's the speed between swings that isn't.

Hmm.. well to that I'd have to say that I think I can agree on a slight difference in speed between swings, so long as the speed of each swing is the same -- unless the characters use up all of their stamina.

As a point of interest, perhaps you should replace the video in your OP with one of DAII's Greatsword animations in the beginning of the game -- where the party is at level one and has no attack speed boosts of any kind, unlike the video of Reaver Hawke on Haste.

Hmm, looks like there was some confusion. The problem with the speed of combat in DA2 has always been that intervel between swings.(Together with enemies being incredibly slow attacking punchingbags...) IMO its not just 2H's that suffer from this as well. Daggers, 1H's & 2H's all have a crazy quick attacks. It takes about a second for each swing with a 2H in DA2. Daggers and 1H's under a second.  Surely thats way too quick right? 

@wsandista Those seem good to me. At least closer to what they should be.

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 17 septembre 2012 - 03:57 .

[Rawgrim]

Attacking (dual wielding) once every 1.something second wouldn`t be very effective. Thats just how fast you can move your hands while holding a dagger. If you want to actually aim and hit something vital, you would fight slower, but still stike fast of course. 50 slashes with a dagger per minute would tire you out pretty fast. And that also implies that zero deffencive movements are involved.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sir JK wrote...

This coupled with the standard artistic style of fantasy provides is with vastly oversized weapons (note, this applies to all weapons) eaily makes combat seem like it's moving too fast. Even if it isn't.

For weapons of that size, yes it is.

And oversized weapons are not universal in fantasy roleplaying games.  NWN has realistic weapon sizes.

But the bigger problem, I think, isn't that the weapon is being swung too quickly.  It's that it's being swung too often.  In combat against a skilled opponent, you don't have a genuine opportunity to land a damaging blow every 2 seconds.  I would suggest that DAO's problem wasn't one of attack speed, but of animation speed.  If DAO had been animated more like NWN or KotOR, where, in between actual attempts to land damaging blows, various feints and parries were rendered, fewer people would have complained about the speed.

[Lotion Soronarr]

http://www.thearma.o...ssays/2HGS.html

[Cultist]

Here's an example of weapons we are dealing with in DA2:

Some of them are the size of your character.

[Sinuphro]

Face of Evil wrote...

Being a two-handed warrior in DAO was virtually unplayable, even with the smaller groups of enemies. But it was one of the best classes in DA2. Don't touch it.

wat?? 2 handed weapon in dao was extremely powerful. Go play dao awakening. in the original dao 2 hand didnt have much aoes but they were very dangerous; ofc if u dun build ur 2hander properly and equip the right gears on him or her then they'll be unplayable

[philippe willaume]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Cultist wrote...

That video actually supplements my positions as I never spoke against swing speed but intervals between swings. The inertion could be seen in this video - man show us single swings but not several at once.
Two-handers are fast when people twist them to parry incoming blows but when it comes to hits inertion forces us to slow pace even with 2-3 kg sword. So when we talk about a chain of swings, here real problem with 2-H weapons arises.

Ah okay, I see your position in a clearer light now. The speed of the swing is fine, it's the speed between swings that isn't.

Hmm.. well to that I'd have to say that I think I can agree on a slight difference in speed between swings, so long as the speed of each swing is the same -- unless the characters use up all of their stamina.

As a point of interest, perhaps you should replace the video in your OP with one of DAII's Greatsword animations in the beginning of the game -- where the party is at level one and has no attack speed boosts of any kind, unlike the video of Reaver Hawke on Haste.

Hello

Well time between swing deepens on how good you are with the sword and how well you understand  bio mechanics.

In the cold steel video, the swings are overpowered hence relatively slow and long to recover from. (I.e. in what
silver calls a false time, i.e. he move his body before his hands). 
As you can see most the strike when they are not stopped by the support takes them off balance each time.

The trick with fencing a long sword or a zweihander is to strike maximising tip velocity and poper bio mechanic to engage as much of your body mass as you can.

(The shinai have a steel handle,  weighted with lead to get a weight close to the original.)
That works exactly the same with a zweihander.

Now the same can not really be applied to maul and axed which by definition are top heavy. that could go for wich make its "harder" to recover, which is compensated by keeping the blade in movement.

 And yes the vanguard reaver berserker is a mincing machine on steroid, but you have all the speed boost possible other that a haste spell...

for me playing a THW in DA:0 worked very well and was fun, (and i went on the dex route more than the vitality route that i used for sten. 
 
combat is just an approximation 
yes knives oor short sword are "quicker" as they are used at shorter range, and passing the point of a long weapon is not trivial .
A two handed weapon is usually very nimble at thrusting and in the case of longsword , Zwei hander , there is long way where you can get cut (strike or just sliding the blade)
So that is a big spanner in the works for the knives should be quicker than two handed swords.

Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 17 septembre 2012 - 09:56 .

[Shadow Fox]

Cultist wrote...

Here's an example of weapons we are dealing with in DA2:

Some of them are the size of your character.

That's standard fantasy fare though big weapons tend to look more impressive.

[Cultist]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
That's standard fantasy fare though big weapons tend to look more impressive.

That is no excuse to treat them as a animu 3 meter featherweight sword.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

That's standard fantasy fare though big weapons tend to look more impressive.

There's no reason to accept the standard just because it is standard.

NWN used realistically sized weapons.  I'd like to see that again.

[Face of Evil]

Sinuphro wrote...

wat?? 2 handed weapon in dao was extremely powerful. Go play dao awakening. in the original dao 2 hand didnt have much aoes but they were very dangerous; ofc if u dun build ur 2hander properly and equip the right gears on him or her then they'll be unplayable

I deliberately discount the expansion because everyone got hit with a power stick in Awakening. (Well, mages stayed about even.) Archers evolved from an average class in DAO to THE DESTROYER OF WORLDS in Awakening.

[Shadow Fox]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

That's standard fantasy fare though big weapons tend to look more impressive.

There's no reason to accept the standard just because it is standard.

NWN used realistically sized weapons.  I'd like to see that again.

NWN was a niche exception not the rule the sooner you accept that the happier you'll be.

[SomniariKess1124]

lol. the greatsword was fine by me. it's the damn battleaxes though... the way your warriors were just tossing it around. battleaxe is'nt meant to just swing with a flick of your wrist. It's a chop-SMASH weapon. and there is a strict rule in weapon-collecting, if the blade is practically waving above their head, the thing's gonna fall out of it's holster, and you get an axe in the skull.

[wowpwnslol]

2 handed weapons should hit much much harder, but the attack speed should be reduced. A random jackass with a dagger should not be dealing more damage than my warrior with a massive 2 handed weapon.

[Shadow Fox]

Cultist wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
That's standard fantasy fare though big weapons tend to look more impressive.

That is no excuse to treat them as a animu 3 meter featherweight sword.

Again standard fantasy fare not everything you hate about a game is from anime.

[MagmaSaiyan]

ive always said if we were changing the speed of combat 2h should be slower(not Origins slow), daggers being the fastest, i hope its not to difficult to change weapon speeds. i thought Skyrim had the most success with how weapons should be"thrown" but i think all the 2h weapons sort of played the same, if not slightly different