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[Netsfn1427]

iakus wrote...

Low EMS Control:  Shepard dies
High EMS Control:  Shepard dies
Synthesis:  Shepard dies
Low EMS Destroy:  Shepard dies
Medium EMS Destroy:  Shepard dies
High EmS Destroy: Shepard dies
Refuse:  Shepard dies
Destroy+  Shepard might survive

In this sense, they are all largely the same.  Anyone who wants to see an ending where Shepard is alive (like we got in the first 2 games) is SoL.  No ending for you.

I'd argue that Shepard lives on in some form in Control. You can disagree, but depending on your view on life, it's not clear. And again, we clearly disagree on Destroy. My Shepard lived. If you chose Destroy+ and insist your Shepard died, I don't know what to tell you except continue to be upset.

alone:
In an area of the Citadel no organic has ever visited, or even knew existed
Is at least partly buried in rubble.
Was badly injured even before the explosion.  After the explosion, had stopped breathing at least momentarilly.

What does Occam's Razor have to say about Shepard's chances after that one breath?  At least ME1 ended with a search party on the Citadel.

Yeah, in real life, you're absolutely right, he'd be screwed. Of course in real life, Shepard wouldn't have survived the explosion in destroy, or Harbinger's beam. Or been able to be brought back to life after being brain dead for  and months. But he/she did survive all that. And all the evidence, meta gaming (the differences between the other endings), the literary device being a common one, and that all the other times Shepard has been killed in Mass Effect have been abundantly clear Shepard died, all suggest Shepard is alive in Destroy+.  I just don't find "Bioware just wanted to screw with us" a compelling enough counter argument to go against that.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Mass Effect 3 is not canon. Nor is Arrival. I'm refusing to recognize both of them at this point until I see a different ending for ME3.

I didn't spend 150+ hrs and 5 years for this ending. The ending blows and that's all there is to it. I don't care if it's "their ending." I fully agree with our favorite reviewer, Smudboy, on this one. The appetizer was horrible, the main course was good, and the dessert was a piece of ****, so you sent it back and they brought it back on a nice plate (the EC).

They could have at least had Shepard rescued on the Destroy ending. You know, called for a medevac then helped onto the shuttle? That would have been better than that breath scene. I could have head canoned the reunion. At least survival would have been certain.

[Iakus]

[quote]Netsfn1427 wrote...

I'd argue that Shepard lives on in some form in Control. You can disagree, but depending on your view on life, it's not clear. And again, we clearly disagree on Destroy. My Shepard lived. If you chose Destroy+ and insist your Shepard died, I don't know what to tell you except continue to be upset.[/quote]

It's not that Shepard died.  It's that they failed to show SHepard lived.

Even if I were to agree that the breath scene was intended to show SHepard definitely lived, I'd say that scene failed in its purpose.  And I'd point to all the people who are confused by the scene or think it's a "last breath" as evidence.

Look at the "From the Wreckage" scene from ME1 and compare it to the breath scene in ME3.  How could it come to this?

[quote]

alone:
In an area of the Citadel no organic has ever visited, or even knew existed
Is at least partly buried in rubble.
Was badly injured even before the explosion.  After the explosion, had stopped breathing at least momentarilly.

What does Occam's Razor have to say about Shepard's chances after that one breath?  At least ME1 ended with a search party on the Citadel.
[/quote]

Yeah, in real life, you're absolutely right, he'd be screwed. Of course in real life, Shepard wouldn't have survived the explosion in destroy, or Harbinger's beam. Or been able to be brought back to life after being brain dead for  and months. But he/she did survive all that. And all the evidence, meta gaming (the differences between the other endings), the literary device being a common one, and that all the other times Shepard has been killed in Mass Effect have been abundantly clear Shepard died, all suggest Shepard is alive in Destroy+.  I just don't find "Bioware just wanted to screw with us" a compelling enough counter argument to go against that.
[/quote]

And all that evidence you cited means absolutely nothing in any of the other endings.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

What does Occam's Razor have to say about Shepard's chances after that one breath?  

What does Occam's Razor say about Bio bothering to make the scene in the first place? It's there to..... communicate nothing at all?

[Iakus]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is not canon. Nor is Arrival. I'm refusing to recognize both of them at this point until I see a different ending for ME3.

I didn't spend 150+ hrs and 5 years for this ending. The ending blows and that's all there is to it. I don't care if it's "their ending." I fully agree with our favorite reviewer, Smudboy, on this one. The appetizer was horrible, the main course was good, and the dessert was a piece of ****, so you sent it back and they brought it back on a nice plate (the EC).

They could have at least had Shepard rescued on the Destroy ending. You know, called for a medevac then helped onto the shuttle? That would have been better than that breath scene. I could have head canoned the reunion. At least survival would have been certain.

This human understands.

I just wish Bioware did too.

[Netsfn1427]

iakus wrote...

Netsfn1427 wrote...


That's why I feel like Bioware made the endings the way they did. They wanted to make the players pause and not give them a right decision. Like it or not, if Destroy just offed the Reapers, most people would choose it, even if casulties were higher with that choice. They wanted to make players think about it.

They wanted the players to feel bad about the endings?

If this is art, I'll take entertainment.

They didn't want to give players an easy way out. Simple as that. There's plenty to be happy about in the endings as well. Multiple people earlier in the thread have listed them. You're focusing on the negative. That's your right, of course.

It's entertainment. I was sufficiently entertained. Enough that I'm in my third playthrough. The storyline hits higher notes than any other point in the trilogy. It's uneven, but no more so than any of the other games. And while I probably won't choose a different ending than Destroy, I'm at least tempted do to control with my current playthrough. That's far more than I could say about most Bioware games, where the endings and choices are pretty straight foward. My only question in Dragon Age:Origins is whether Alistair or my Warden does the deed with Morrigan.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Netsfn1427 wrote...


Yeah, in real life, you're absolutely right, he'd be screwed. Of course in real life, Shepard wouldn't have survived the explosion in destroy, or Harbinger's beam. Or been able to be brought back to life after being brain dead for  and months. But he/she did survive all that. And all the evidence, meta gaming (the differences between the other endings), the literary device being a common one, and that all the other times Shepard has been killed in Mass Effect have been abundantly clear Shepard died, all suggest Shepard is alive in Destroy+.  I just don't find "Bioware just wanted to screw with us" a compelling enough counter argument to go against that.

The bold. Look up the Phoenix myth. That's Shepard's role. When Shepard was resurrected with Project Lazarus, Shepard became the Phoenix.

This is similar to when John Sheridan died in Babylon 5, but was given a second life by the last of the first ones. Sheridan's second life would be equal in length to the first life. Sheridan represented the Phoenix in that series.

Thus Shepard's second life should be equal to her first life. The other choice is immortality. One simply does not treat the Phoenix the way Mac Walters treated her.

[Netsfn1427]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

What does Occam's Razor have to say about Shepard's chances after that one breath?  

What does Occam's Razor say about Bio bothering to make the scene in the first place? It's there to..... communicate nothing at all?

Bingo. It's there for a reason. The reason is either A. To show he's alive or B. To screw with us. People can take B., but again, it's awfully cynical to go down that road.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

What does Occam's Razor have to say about Shepard's chances after that one breath?  

What does Occam's Razor say about Bio bothering to make the scene in the first place? It's there to..... communicate nothing at all?

I don't need it for the scene.  They told us why:  to offer "a ray of hope"  Not to confirm Shep's survival.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Netsfn1427 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

What does Occam's Razor have to say about Shepard's chances after that one breath?  

What does Occam's Razor say about Bio bothering to make the scene in the first place? It's there to..... communicate nothing at all?

Bingo. It's there for a reason. The reason is either A. To show he's alive or B. To screw with us. People can take B., but again, it's awfully cynical to go down that road.

Given the pre-game hype and all the misleading about how much our choices mattered that was done pre release, and all the trolling done by BW ("it could have been his last breath") just to keep doubt in the player's minds, it is very easy to go down the cynical road. They have screwed with us in the past. Just sayin'.

[Iakus]

Netsfn1427 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Netsfn1427 wrote...


That's why I feel like Bioware made the endings the way they did. They wanted to make the players pause and not give them a right decision. Like it or not, if Destroy just offed the Reapers, most people would choose it, even if casulties were higher with that choice. They wanted to make players think about it.

They wanted the players to feel bad about the endings?

If this is art, I'll take entertainment.

They didn't want to give players an easy way out. Simple as that. There's plenty to be happy about in the endings as well. Multiple people earlier in the thread have listed them. You're focusing on the negative. That's your right, of course.

It's entertainment. I was sufficiently entertained. Enough that I'm in my third playthrough. The storyline hits higher notes than any other point in the trilogy. It's uneven, but no more so than any of the other games. And while I probably won't choose a different ending than Destroy, I'm at least tempted do to control with my current playthrough. That's far more than I could say about most Bioware games, where the endings and choices are pretty straight foward. My only question in Dragon Age:Origins is whether Alistair or my Warden does the deed with Morrigan.

The endings themselves already offer no easy way out.  There's no reason to toss in "Oh, yeah, and then Shepard dies" in all of them.  Not the High EMS ones, at least.

I tried to do another playthrough after EC came out.  I got as far as Rannoch and went "What's the point.  Nothing's changed.  I've already seen the best possible outcome and it's nothing I want to repeat"  And I'm certainly not alone in that assessment.  

And inDragon Age Origins, I've  Done the Dark Ritual, sacrificed Alistair, sacrificed Logain (my personal favorite ending, btw) and my Ultimate Sacrifice Warden is currently in Orzammar.  I can do each of these endings because while none are perfect, I can see benefits to all of them.

Me3's "And then t\\The Shepard died happilly ever after" is tacked on tragedy claiming to be deep

[Iakus]

Netsfn1427 wrote...

Bingo. It's there for a reason. The reason is either A. To show he's alive or B. To screw with us. People can take B., but again, it's awfully cynical to go down that road.

And it wasn't clarified or given closure at all in EC (where even Zaeed was given his own ending slide)  because...?

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

disney makes films for babies

babies cant deal with emotional stress or anything that is mildly sad

babies played mass effect 3, couldnt deal with a scifi ending to a scifi game

[Kia Purity]

Funny when you think about how much death there were in the Disney movies. Even if they were off screen of sorts, but it was obvious that people did /die/. There are CONSTANT struggles but in the end, there is a reward of a happy ending.

Dear people, go watch Disney movies and shut up about them being happy and sparkly, that's not necessarily true XD

And besides, I was expecting the same thing from Mass Effect 3. A long struggle, people dying, and the hope of a reward at the ending with happy ending.

I got more death instead. No thanks.

[Iakus]

Kia Purity wrote...

Funny when you think about how much death there were in the Disney movies. Even if they were off screen of sorts, but it was obvious that people did /die/. There are CONSTANT struggles but in the end, there is a reward of a happy ending.

Dear people, go watch Disney movies and shut up about them being happy and sparkly, that's not necessarily true XD

And besides, I was expecting the same thing from Mass Effect 3. A long struggle, people dying, and the hope of a reward at the ending with happy ending.

I got more death instead. No thanks.

What I expected

Earn your Happy Ending

What I got

Dropped a Bridge on Him

[Time Laspe]

There is nothing wrong with a Disney ending. Bioware just chose not to pursue that path for some unknown reason. I myself, am not happy with that reason. The hero doesn't always come home, we get it, but it would have been nice to see my Shep living a happy life after the war (destroy ending for me). A 5 SEC SLIDE BIOWARE, GEEZ!!!

[LilLino]

I personally like that the game that focuses on sacrifice for the greater good has a huge sacrifice in the end.
All endings force us to give up something and it works for me.

And Shep lives in 'Shep lives' cutscene.

[_Syn_]

I think what people were looking for are inspiring endings. Like the endings of the last 2 games. ME3 endings are all sad and depressing but I did like the refusal ending. Problem with that is that the game depicts your forces depicts your forces getting utterly slaughtered. The hell?

BW was going for the apocalyptic approach, brave of them. Problem is that no matter how hard you work, fight or grind in multiplayer its all the same. You're screwed anyway.

[Ridwan]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

disney makes films for babies

babies cant deal with emotional stress or anything that is mildly sad

babies played mass effect 3, couldnt deal with a scifi ending to a scifi game

Let me guess, you're a big anime fan?

[Netsfn1427]

iakus wrote...

The endings themselves already offer no easy way out.  There's no reason to toss in "Oh, yeah, and then Shepard dies" in all of them.  Not the High EMS ones, at least.

I tried to do another playthrough after EC came out.  I got as far as Rannoch and went "What's the point.  Nothing's changed.  I've already seen the best possible outcome and it's nothing I want to repeat"  And I'm certainly not alone in that assessment.  

And inDragon Age Origins, I've  Done the Dark Ritual, sacrificed Alistair, sacrificed Logain (my personal favorite ending, btw) and my Ultimate Sacrifice Warden is currently in Orzammar.  I can do each of these endings because while none are perfect, I can see benefits to all of them.

Me3's "And then tThe Shepard died happilly ever after" is tacked on tragedy claiming to be deep

It's unfortunate you don't feel the desire to play on. But it seems like you and a few others are really working hard to avoid having some happiness over Destroy+. Yeah, in the real world Shepard would be dead. But the ME series is filled with moments like those. It didn't destroy your happiness then. Bioware didn't put in a full reunion scene at the end because they likely suspected it would immediately become the most popular choice. So they decided to just insert the universal sign that a character is alive; sticking in a scene at the very end where they show signs of life to contradict all the narration indicating they're dead. They wouldn't have spent resources on a scene in a game that was already rushed to have it mean nothing.

You might say that's stupid to do. And there's an argument for that. But when there are people on this board saying they'd kill three quarters the galaxy just to get a reunion scene, I understand why Bioware did it. For a lot of people their Shepard getting to have blue babies (by the way, isn't Liara only 109? Isn't that at least 150 years away from possible?) was all that mattered. They didn't want that to be all that mattered. That's their choice.

But again, some of the mental gynmastics people seem to do to avoid giving Bioware an inch... I mean really? Everything post Overlord now no longer happened and ME3 doesn't exist? Sure, you can do that and come up with your own headcanon of the events. Or you could have your happy ending post destroy+. It really isn't that hard to do. Heck, if you want to, you could even argue the Geth and EDI can be repaired. I think that defeats the purpose of the ending, but the Catalyst does say everything can be repaired, right? They're giving you plenty to work with there. You may not want to work with it, but if you're willing to pretend an entire game didn't happen, then you're already using your imagination anyway.

I never have found a compelling reason to refuse the dark ritual. There are too many in game punishments for taking it, (death of a character, Morrigan leaving you for the final battles) and likely no consequences for the universe. Killing Loghain might have been a compelling enough reason, but then I'd end up with an ending where Alistair still hated my Warden and no Morrigan. So why take that? I know some did, but I imagine most would just take the way with zero in-game punishment, especially since the lore doesn't appear keen on punishing you for that decision. And that was Dragon Age:O in a nutshell. A fun game, but with few difficult choices, since most had the "save everyone" option.

[drayfish]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

disney makes films for babies

babies cant deal with emotional stress or anything that is mildly sad

babies played mass effect 3, couldnt deal with a scifi ending to a scifi game

Interesting. Bambi's mother, the wife from UP, Nemo's mother, and Simba's dad all car pooled over here to have a word with you. (I think Mufasa was driving.)

They want you to watch the ending to The Fox and the Hound and try to hold back the tears.

...Also, a lot of them were bleeding on the upholstery.



(And I don't remember a whole lot of serious sci-fi that had you build an 'I win' button you could press in the final ten minutes for no reason.)

Modifié par drayfish, 17 septembre 2012 - 12:37 .

[DDG4005]

Gervaise wrote...

There is nothing wrong with the Destroy ending having some element of sacrifice to it. In ME1 you had to sacrifice one of your companions and with less riding on the decision than at the end of ME3. I didn't like losing EDI, particularly as she had helped me directly get that far, but I hated losing Kaiden and he had pretty much done the same.
As for the Geth, in ME2 they approved of my decision to destroy the collector human reaper and tread my own path - just as the majority of them had chosen to reject the reapers for the same reason.

The difference between the endings is that at least in Destroy you have left intact the element of free will. All the races I fought so hard to save still have autonomy. True they may fall back into their old ways but the possibility is there for them to develop differently. The Quarians could still restore the Geth but not make their previous mistakes.
Control means that Sheperd, however benign, is controlling things and presumable will stamp on anyone who gets out of line. In Synthesis Sheperd takes the unilateral decision to change the entire galaxy into mini reapers/ultra husks. Both outcomes are really a triumph for the Reapers (or the mind behind the Reapers). Yet the Extended Cut in particular would have us belief that Control has a nobility to it and Synthesis heralds a golden age.
Sheperd dying is not a problem to me - what it results in is the important thing. For me, Destroy is the nearest I can get to a happy ending because it is true to the character I created.

You summed my feelings exactly.  This why I always choose Destroy as well.

[George Costanza]

Disney movies usually have endings that make sense. Until the day they end The Lion King 4 with Scar returning from the dead as a cyborg, leading an army of cyborg hyenas, and Simba must choose between sacrificing Timon and Pumba to to kill his nefarious uncle with a superweapon built from dung beetle remains, or sacrifice himself to magically transform all his jungle kin into unicorns then we've got no right to use the phrase "Disney ending" in a derogatory way.

Yes, until that day, a Disney ending would be Hamlet compared to what Mass Effect 3 has.

Modifié par George Costanza, 17 septembre 2012 - 12:56 .

[crimzontearz]

Omg I can't stop laughing at some of these comparisons

[m2iCodeJockey]

ShepnTali wrote...
Help me understand what's wrong with a so called, 'disney' ending

NOT A FLUFFING THING if it's done correctly. Someone was just in love with the idea that characters should die.

Try this:
(5000+ War assests)
*the crucible fires right after anderson/TIM*
*relay reaction exhausts the eezo in each, no breakage*
*reapers go limp on each planet visited*
*two dudes fighting a husk, washover, husk falls to knees and face-plants*
*zoom husk's left eye, light fading*
*commotion on citadel to search for shep and anderson*
*slow dissolve to wide shot of city cleanup/under construction*
(overlay: "London, two years later...")
*[if crucible rated high + grissom completed] tight shot of a man's feet crossing a city street, pull back/raise to anderson in painter's coveralls, pull back, he has paint and a ladder, pull back, at the other end of the ladder is preggers sanders*
Sanders: "(something atypically fussy)"
Anderson: *monotone* "I hear and obey!" *grins* "I've been indoctrinated!" *eyebrows*
.
.
*cut to tattoo parlor, jack is sketching a unicorn, students have lost a bet...*
*cut to jacob feeding son with brynn working in background REALLY preggers*
*cut to miranda and samara doing charity construction*
Samara: "We're due back at the Temple on Thessia."
(Other such scenes like Aria ballroom dancing with another Asari, Conrad and Gavin collaborating...)
.
.
*slow dissolve to beach shot, gently crashing surf*
*camera lowers, back shot of shep reclined with liara on lap with head on shoulder*
*tight shot of liara's wrist: "vid call"*
Liara: *lifts wrist to answer call*
Shep: "Yes, Admiral?"
Admiral: "All stations are reporting 'No further Reaper activity.'"
Shep: "Understood."
Admiral: "...Good job, [Bunny/Bear/Shepard]."
Shep: *softly* "Thanks, [Mom/Admiral]."
*cut to black*
*credits*

I can go even cheesier. It would still work.