378 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Netsfn1427 wrote... 
It's unfortunate you don't feel the desire to play on. But it seems like you and a few others are really working hard to avoid having some happiness over Destroy+. Yeah, in the real world Shepard would be dead. But the ME series is filled with moments like those. It didn't destroy your happiness then. Bioware didn't put in a full reunion scene at the end because they likely suspected it would immediately become the most popular choice. So they decided to just insert the universal sign that a character is alive; sticking in a scene at the very end where they show signs of life to contradict all the narration indicating they're dead. They wouldn't have spent resources on a scene in a game that was already rushed to have it mean nothing.

Please don't tuirn this into a reunion demand.  I never once suggested that.  While, yes, it would be ideal fora "happy ending" it's hardly a requirement.  What I do require, though, is an unambiguous SHepard Lives ending.  Not something I have to read the file name to understand.  Not something requiring metagaming like "Well they wouldn't have put it in if it didn't mean X"

Compare:

From the Wreckage

with 

Breath Scene

Was this even made by the same company?

 You might say that's stupid to do. And there's an argument for that. But when there are people on this board saying they'd kill three quarters the galaxy just to get a reunion scene, I understand why Bioware did it. For a lot of people their Shepard getting to have blue babies (by the way, isn't Liara only 109? Isn't that at least 150 years away from possible?) was all that mattered. They didn't want that to be all that mattered. That's their choice.

Again, not about reunions.  The Normandy takes off from the jungle world.  Show that Shepard survives (not just "lives") and a reunion can be implied.  But if you only imply Shepard's survival, a reunion is an implication of an implication.  Too far removed from "confirmed"

But again, some of the mental gynmastics people seem to do to avoid giving Bioware an inch... I mean really? Everything post Overlord now no longer happened and ME3 doesn't exist? Sure, you can do that and come up with your own headcanon of the events. Or you could have your happy ending post destroy+. It really isn't that hard to do. Heck, if you want to, you could even argue the Geth and EDI can be repaired. I think that defeats the purpose of the ending, but the Catalyst does say everything can be repaired, right? They're giving you plenty to work with there. You may not want to work with it, but if you're willing to pretend an entire game didn't happen, then you're already using your imagination anyway.

\\Mental gymnastics?  I'm going by what was said and shown in the game.  I shouldn't have to consult Twitter, read file names, and metagame to imagine how the ending isn't as bad as it looks.  The last image I have of Shepard is a burned and broken body lying in rubble on an abandoned and unexplored part of the Citadel, gasping.

Yay!  He's not dead yet!  Must be a happy ending!  No, after the Wreckage scene in ME1, the Normandy rescue of ME2, and the asbsolute horror of the ending in ME3, that doesn't cut it.

I never have found a compelling reason to refuse the dark ritual. There are too many in game punishments for taking it, (death of a character, Morrigan leaving you for the final battles) and likely no consequences for the universe. Killing Loghain might have been a compelling enough reason, but then I'd end up with an ending where Alistair still hated my Warden and no Morrigan. So why take that? I know some did, but I imagine most would just take the way with zero in-game punishment, especially since the lore doesn't appear keen on punishing you for that decision. And that was Dragon Age:O in a nutshell. A fun game, but with few difficult choices, since most had the "save everyone" option.

The ritual means a Tevinter Old God will be loose in Thedas again some day.  Even if it's free of the taint, that's Not A Good Thing.  I see it as a viable alternative to the other choices.  And like I said, I prefer redeeming Logain.  Heck the Warden I did that on had Morrigan as a LI.  I found it to be the most satisfying of the endings.

But that's the nice thing about having multiple endings with multiple outcomes for the characters:  Everyone's free to have a favorite.  Give the same fate to the protagonnist regardless of choice, the choices stop being so meaningful.

Modifié par iakus, 17 septembre 2012 - 04:07 .

[MegaSovereign]

iakus I feel bad for you because Bioware could probably meet your demands with a patch

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus I feel bad for you because Bioware could probably meet your demands with a patch

I've been saying that pretty much since EC dropped.  

The Torment of Tantalus indeed 

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus I feel bad for you because Bioware could probably meet your demands with a patch

I've been saying that pretty much since EC dropped.  

The Torment of Tantalus indeed 

Would you have been happy with an extra soundfile over the Breath scene? 

Like dialogue from a rescue team. "I found him"

That would be under the 4 MB patch limit.

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus I feel bad for you because Bioware could probably meet your demands with a patch

I've been saying that pretty much since EC dropped.  

The Torment of Tantalus indeed 

Would you have been happy with an extra soundfile over the Breath scene? 

Like dialogue from a rescue team. "I found him"

That would be under the 4 MB patch limit.

Yes!

I saw a youtube video where someone did just that with Liara's voice.  The sound of stuff being moved offscreen followed by "Shepard!" just as the breath is taken.

Or a voiceover as the LI hesitates to put Shepard's name on the Memorial  "FIfth Fleet to Normandy, we found Shepard!  He/she's alive!"  Cut to Normandy taking off. Skip the breath scene entirely.

[Applepie_Svk]

iakus wrote...


The ritual means a Tevinter Old God will be loose in Thedas again some day.  Even if it's free of the taint, that's Not A Good Thing.  I see it as a viable alternative to the other choices.  And like I said, I prefer redeeming Logain.  Heck the Warden I did that on had Morrigan as a LI.  I found it to be the most satisfying of the endings.

But that's the nice thing about having multiple endings with multiple outcomes for the characters:  Everyone's free to have a favorite.  Give the same fate to the protagonnist regardless of choice, the choices stop being so meaningful.

DA:O ending >>>>>>> ME3

DA:O was simply great, at first I like the everyone lives ritual ending till I found the sacrifice ending which is one of my favourite since then. It was great that you could see your warden to die for what he/she believed and not by some agenda of glowboy, with EC I get atleast refusal - bittersweet ending which is still out of reach DA:O sacrifice ending.

[ShepnTali]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus I feel bad for you because Bioware could probably meet your demands with a patch

I've been saying that pretty much since EC dropped.  

The Torment of Tantalus indeed 

Would you have been happy with an extra soundfile over the Breath scene? 

Like dialogue from a rescue team. "I found him"

That would be under the 4 MB patch limit.

Yes!

I saw a youtube video where someone did just that with Liara's voice.  The sound of stuff being moved offscreen followed by "Shepard!" just as the breath is taken.

Or a voiceover as the LI hesitates to put Shepard's name on the Memorial  "FIfth Fleet to Normandy, we found Shepard!  He/she's alive!"  Cut to Normandy taking off. Skip the breath scene entirely.

This, this, this.

Simplicity can go a long way.

[Funkdrspot]

you haven't because its a great cliffhanger to start ME4 with.

Yeah, I called it. ME4 starring Shep again.

[Reorte]

ShepnTali wrote...

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus I feel bad for you because Bioware could probably meet your demands with a patch

I've been saying that pretty much since EC dropped.  

The Torment of Tantalus indeed 

Would you have been happy with an extra soundfile over the Breath scene? 

Like dialogue from a rescue team. "I found him"

That would be under the 4 MB patch limit.

Yes!

I saw a youtube video where someone did just that with Liara's voice.  The sound of stuff being moved offscreen followed by "Shepard!" just as the breath is taken.

Or a voiceover as the LI hesitates to put Shepard's name on the Memorial  "FIfth Fleet to Normandy, we found Shepard!  He/she's alive!"  Cut to Normandy taking off. Skip the breath scene entirely.

This, this, this.

Simplicity can go a long way.

That would be enough to satisfy me (not that it would stop me ranting about all the rest of the nonsense present but I wouldn't feel so put off about touching anything other than MP again).

[Netsfn1427]

iakus wrote...

Mental gymnastics?  I'm going by what was said and shown in the game.  I shouldn't have to consult Twitter, read file names, and metagame to imagine how the ending isn't as bad as it looks.  The last image I have of Shepard is a burned and broken body lying in rubble on an abandoned and unexplored part of the Citadel, gasping.

Yay!  He's not dead yet!  Must be a happy ending!  No, after the Wreckage scene in ME1, the Normandy rescue of ME2, and the asbsolute horror of the ending in ME3, that doesn't cut it.

In fairness, a lot of the mental gymnastics things was directed towards another user. But you don't need to consult twitter or even meta game to make the leap that Shepard's alive. The scenes in question are going off memory, admittedly:

Shep gets "consumed" by the explosion.
Hackett narrates, mentions the sacrifices of those lost. 
Love interest holds the plaque, but refuses to put it up. Normandy takes off.
Last scene, Shepard breathes

Now without anything else to go off of, (no twitter, metagaming), I'd say that's a pretty surefire sign the character is alive. The LI's behavior indicates it and the scene in the rubble was inserted for a reason. It's the last real narrative message the game is sending out. It's meant to convey something. I don't need for someone say "found him!" because I assume he's going to be found, otherwise, again, why show it? Dying in the explosion or dying in the rubble is hardly any different from a narrative perspective, so if Bioware meant for him to die, they wouldn't have wasted resources on showing him breathe. The narrative doesn't explicitly say Shepard's alive, but it comes as close as possible. That's what's there, all available if you only beat it once and saw a destroy+ ending.

But if that's not enough, there's even stronger evidence when you see the other endings, since you also have to explain why Bioware stuck the Force Sensitive LI in at all in the one only ending where Shepard breathes and in no other ending at all. Maybe you can argue that they had the breathe scene ready to go already for something else and decided to use it at the end. But they definitely created the LI change in the EC. They wouldn't add a meaningless scene to a free DLC. It was meant to convey something. I think it's heavy-handed, ridiculous (Ashley just knows Shepard is alive??, right...) and unneccessary, but it's there for a reason. 

But I'm not going to convince you otherwise at this point. You've probably seen the ending multiple times, so you know what's there. I think Shepard's alive. You don't. That's your call. 

As a side note, since people keep saying Disney has dark endings, I believe it's in reference to changes to classic fairy tales where they clean up the endings to make them more child-friendly. A generation of little girls (my poor sister included) have never forgotten the day they read the end of the actual non-Disney Little Mermaid. 

[Discouraged_one]

It's not artistic enough to give the fans a generic happy ending that everyone wants...

[Ozida]

Aaaand, I am back to this topic. Yay!

Netsfn1427 wrote...

Now without anything else to go off of, (no twitter, metagaming), I'd say that's a pretty surefire sign the character is alive. The LI's behavior indicates it and the scene in the rubble was inserted for a reason.

I was under impression, there was no reason for this scene. Didn't devs say they just put it there because it was hard to say good-bye to Shepard for them, so they put it more for themselves (sorry, I don't remember exact quote)? The idea was, that it was just more of an Easter-egg than an actual meaningful proof. Later they also said that it can be the final breath... and later than it is a survival scene again. You must admit, it is pretty confusing for a player looking for a single straight answer.

That set aside, I do agree that some people seek proof of Shepard's death even though they would prefer otherwise. The reason why I see this happening, I think, is that there is so much depressing stuff in current endings, that people start questioning even small hopes of happiness. It's like being doubtful if they deserve feel happy. Would it make them more shallow (you know how dark is deep)? Should they feel guilty for killing Geths rather than be happy for Shepard? Does it make them "little Disney-lovers" for wanting something brighter? People are afraid to get whatever happy things there are left because so many things were proved to be bad and sad.

And that is why I would rather prefer a clear, non-doubtful happy-ending option, rather than guessing. I feel like I worked hard in past 3 games to be rewarded with something more than speculations.

Modifié par Ozida, 17 septembre 2012 - 06:12 .

[m2iCodeJockey]

Netsfn1427 wrote...
...It's meant to convey something...
...Love interest holds the plaque, but refuses to put it up. Normandy takes off
Last scene, Shepard breathes...

Remember the conversation between Mrs. Huerta and the hospital clerk?...

[Netsfn1427]

Ozida wrote...

Aaaand, I am back to this topic. Yay!

I was under impression, there was no reason for this scene. Didn't devs say they just put it there because it was hard to say good-bye to Shepard for them, so they put it more for themselves (sorry, I don't remember exact quote)? The idea was, that it was just more of an Easter-egg than an actual meaningful proof. Later they also said that it can be the final breath... and later than it is a survival scene again. You must admit, it is pretty confusing for a player looking for a single straight answer.

That set aside, I do agree that some people seek proof of Shepard's death even though they would prefer otherwise. The reason why I see this happening, I think, is that there is so much depressing stuff in current endings, that people start questioning even small hopes of happiness. It's like being doubtful if they deserve feel happy. Would it make them more shallow (you know how dark is deep)? Should they feel guilty for killing Geths rather than be happy for Shepard? Does it make them "little Disney-lovers" for wanting something brighter? People are afraid to get whatever happy things there are left because so many things were proved to be bad and sad.

And that is why I would rather prefer a clear, non-doubtful happy-ending option, rather than guessing. I feel like I worked hard in past 3 games to be rewarded with something more than speculations.

I thought I was done with it too, but I keep coming back. I tend not to take much stock in twitter, because it often fails to be a good conveyer of message and intent. That goes beyong the world of video games. I've seen tweets indicating it proof Shep survives, others not. But think iakus' argument that it all should be there in the game is absolutely correct, which is why with my last post I tried to focus on the evidence in game. If that's not enough for some, then that's not enough for them.

I agree with you that it certainly does look like some people are trying harder to kill Shepard off, and I do think it's because they aren't satisified with the endings. Which is their perogative. If someone hates the endings, is done with the ME series and would prefer Shepard die alone in a pile of rubble, sure go ahead and envision that. There's nothing in there  in the endings which 100%  disproves it. I just prefer to take the happier view on things for my Shepard, especially since in my opinion, the narrative strongly suggests Shepard is alive. 

[D24O]

Its not dark and mature enough OP. True Art is Angsty.

MegaSovereign wrote...

Would you have been happy with an extra soundfile over the Breath scene? 

Like dialogue from a rescue team. "I found him" 

That would be under the 4 MB patch limit.

 

Also, IMO they should've done this. While I understand the point of the breath scene, I don't think its done all that well, just having a little VO work would do it some good.

Modifié par D24O, 17 septembre 2012 - 06:40 .

[CronoDragoon]

Look, I get the desire for a Reunion scene. It would be great. But the scene has, at the very least, as much evidence going for it that Shepard is alive than dead. Knowing this, it is truly up to you whether you want to believe he is alive or dead. Stating that he is dead as a means of torching the endings further is therefore not a valid criticism. Now, if you are saying that yeah, I think he's alive, but it would have been great to have an actual discovery scene, etc, then that is fine.

[Zooter]

Yes, a little expansion on the breath scene would be nice.

[D1ck1e]

Nothing wrong with it.

Even Jack wants one.

[Podge 90]

Given what we have, I would have been somewhat happy with the memorial scene showing Miranda hesitate to put Shep's name on the wall.....followed by the gasp for air. But Bioware couldn't even be bothered to include her.

As others have said, it isn't satisfying to end Commander Shepard's journey by 'speculating' about what happens next, regardless of what ending you chose.

A "Disney" ending would not only provide a genuine victory (because we played these three games to lose, right?), but outright closure. That's what I wanted from ME3.

[Ownedbacon]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

There's nothing wrong with it. If there was they wouldn't have put Synthesis in.

/thread

[Iakus]

Netsfn1427 wrote...

Now without anything else to go off of, (no twitter, metagaming), I'd say that's a pretty surefire sign the character is alive. The LI's behavior indicates it and the scene in the rubble was inserted for a reason. It's the last real narrative message the game is sending out. It's meant to convey something. I don't need for someone say "found him!" because I assume he's going to be found, otherwise, again, why show it? Dying in the explosion or dying in the rubble is hardly any different from a narrative perspective, so if Bioware meant for him to die, they wouldn't have wasted resources on showing him breathe. The narrative doesn't explicitly say Shepard's alive, but it comes as close as possible. That's what's there, all available if you only beat it once and saw a destroy+ ending.  

You're forgetting that nobody knows where Shepard is.  And the existence of the plaques tells us that Shepard is likely presumed dead.  Is anybody even looking?

ALso, the last image we see of the formerly indomitible Commander Shepard is burned, bloody, and partly buried.  Helpless and alone.  THi sis not an image to inspire hope.  To me this inspires melancholy and even dread.  Is SHepard's 'reward" for going in so highly prepared to be a lingering death rather than a quick one?

Intentions aside, the scene sends the entirely wrong image to me.

But if that's not enough, there's even stronger evidence when you see the other endings, since you also have to explain why Bioware stuck the Force Sensitive LI in at all in the one only ending where Shepard breathes and in no other ending at all. Maybe you can argue that they had the breathe scene ready to go already for something else and decided to use it at the end. But they definitely created the LI change in the EC. They wouldn't add a meaningless scene to a free DLC. It was meant to convey something. I think it's heavy-handed, ridiculous (Ashley just knows Shepard is alive??, right...) and unneccessary, but it's there for a reason.

And again, I see it fails in it's purpose.  In fact, it only has a purpose at all when compared to the other endings.  By itself, it tells us nothing.  They have no proof Shepard's alive.  Heck the fact that their holding Shepard's plaque and Anderson's is already up tells us they have very good reason to believe the opposite.

So this is the ending they're not quite ready to put the name on the wall.  That says nothing.  Now if they got word from the Fleet while they're hesitating, and the smile is hearing Shepard's alive, that would be another thing...

But I'm not going to convince you otherwise at this point. You've probably seen the ending multiple times, so you know what's there. I think Shepard's alive. You don't. That's your call.

I never said that.  I said the endings are too ambiguous.  It's like Bioware's afraid to say one way or another.  And I don't like that at all.  Particularly since Shepard is in fact dead in every other ending.  They couldn't spare one where Shep's definitely alive?

Modifié par iakus, 17 septembre 2012 - 10:59 .

[Nightwriter]

Sion1138 wrote...

I will never understand why we couldn't have been given that tiny bit of satisfaction.

Mac Walters: “Yeah, I mean, I think the Extended Cut is really more about taking the things that are there and making them shine a bit more, rather than trying to change and adapt what’s there to, to you know—reach out to, you know, broader audiences looking for something that just was never intended.”

You were looking for a tiny bit of satisfaction that "just was never intended."

[jer1981]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The best thing you can do, at least in my experience is come up with a scenario in your head and talk to someone about it. I've been doing it with loads of people and it's helped them move on.

I'd be happy to talk to any of you about whatever scenario you have. It'll make you feel better.

Lord knows how much you all love hearing about my ending. Why not tell me about yours?

Yes that is what i need exactly! I can't really talk to anyone i know about it becasue they don't understand it.

After i finished I spent a long while searching online trying to figure out what exactly i just saw. Then the next day i was just sad and i tried to start my second play through and knowing what was coming at the end it's almost impossible to want to play through.

I just need to work through it with someone...

Jer

Modifié par jer1981, 17 septembre 2012 - 11:36 .

[inversevideo]

D24O wrote...

Its not dark and mature enough OP. True Art is Angsty.

MegaSovereign wrote...

Would you have been happy with an extra soundfile over the Breath scene? 

Like dialogue from a rescue team. "I found him" 

That would be under the 4 MB patch limit.

 

Also, IMO they should've done this. While I understand the point of the breath scene, I don't think its done all that well, just having a little VO work would do it some good.