378 réponses à ce sujet

[Link Ashland 614]

There's like an enormous difference between a happy ending and a Disney ending. Unless you want to see a childlish, idiotic musical number that tells you about values while everyone, incluiding all the dead characters singing with rainbows and unicorns and all that crap.

Trust me, you don't want that. At all.

[dreman9999]

1. Unrealistic.
2. forgettable.
3. No impact.
4.done way too many times.
5.No growth with characters.
6. No real meaning.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 septembre 2012 - 05:55 .

[macrocarl]

BW chose to do a different kind of ending. Nothing is inherently 'wrong' with a story book ending.... except the fact that tons of games already went/ go there of course.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

Because apparantly, Bioware thinks gamers nowadays are so jaded and cynical they have to see the protagonist die horribly to feel anything

So when other games have sad endings it's ok but whne bw does it in a bitter sweet way...It's not?

[o Ventus]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Because apparantly, Bioware thinks gamers nowadays are so jaded and cynical they have to see the protagonist die horribly to feel anything

So when other games have sad endings it's ok but whne bw does it in a bitter sweet way...It's not?

You didn't actually read the post you quoted, did you?

[Dharvy]

The funny thing is, the more and more I read these forums, the more I start to appreciate the endings and what Bioware probably was trying to do. Their problem just seem to be the execution.

Shepard was either given or took upon the job of saving lives vs a Galaxy wide threat. And as you play through the 3 games you're trying to do everything you can do do just that.

End Game: You meet the king of the Reapers and find out that it was given a similar task during its cycle. Its solution? Reset button. But now meeting the Avatar of this cycle and the one tasked with ending the threat to Cycle/Galaxy which is the Reapers, the Catalyst hands over the reigns and basically leave it up to you.

You can just Destroy the threat and just hope the Galaxy and life would be safe and continued, however there's some collateral damage.

You can assume Control to end the threat and hopefully make things better.

You can Synthesize, an upgrade to the lives of the Galaxy in a hope to minimize or eliminate the need for a threat.

All the choices would end your threat which is the Reapers.

Or you can just flat out Refuse, feeling that the choices are inadequate or uncertain, or feel you're not up to the task of making a choice to save the Galaxy on behalf of the Galaxy, and just hand the reigns back to the Catalyst to finish dealing with its problem on its own.

Kind of poetic in its own right.

Maybe the fault lies with the execution or maybe just too many of the fans just wanted to blow up reapers, save the galaxy, wrap arms around LI, and go home smiling and laughing perhaps with some dead reapers in the background. No doubt a satisfying ending to a decent action flick.

[jstme]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Unrealistic.
2. forgettable.
3. No impact.
4.done way to many times.
5.No growth with characters.
6. No real meaning.

1. Giant magic RBG waves 
2. Do not want to remember that. Not my canon.
3. Nothing you did previously has any impact.
4. Deus Ex copypasta.
5. Yup. 
6. Symbolic. No real meaning.
See, you desribed current ME3 endings. The question though was about a different one. Think of DA:O endings.  

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Because apparantly, Bioware thinks gamers nowadays are so jaded and cynical they have to see the protagonist die horribly to feel anything

So when other games have sad endings it's ok but whne bw does it in a bitter sweet way...It's not?

are really they one-sided, it can have a sad ending but it shouldn't be every ending

[darthnick427]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

The endings post-EC are actually pretty happy.

They just lack things like proper closure and narrative coherence.

This pretty much

[Funkdrspot]

There's nothing wrong with it but there is something wrong with your inability to comprehend that one isn't going to be provided. There is something wrong with the rustled jimmies from not having one

Conversely, I ask you what's wrong with NOT having a disney ending?

Ask yourself, would the act of saving private ryan have the same 'weight' if none of ryans brothers died and no one in the platoon sent to save him died?

[Bill Casey]

It's worth noting Disney films are also known for incredibly sad moments during the narrative...
They typically end on a happy note, but that doesn't bring Bambi's mother back...

They deal with life and death in a fashion that's remarkably mature for a children's work...
I mean, look at Old Yeller...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:03 .

[dreman9999]

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Because apparantly, Bioware thinks gamers nowadays are so jaded and cynical they have to see the protagonist die horribly to feel anything

So when other games have sad endings it's ok but whne bw does it in a bitter sweet way...It's not?

You didn't actually read the post you quoted, did you?

I did. My post reflex that other games have sad and bitter sweet endings as well. My comment is to counter his Cynicism.

[jstme]

Dharvy wrote...

The funny thing is, the more and more I read these forums, the more I start to appreciate the endings and what Bioware probably was trying to do. Their problem just seem to be the execution.

Shepard was either given or took upon the job of saving lives vs a Galaxy wide threat. And as you play through the 3 games you're trying to do everything you can do do just that.

End Game: You meet the king of the Reapers and find out that it was given a similar task during its cycle. Its solution? Reset button. But now meeting the Avatar of this cycle and the one tasked with ending the threat to Cycle/Galaxy which is the Reapers, the Catalyst hands over the reigns and basically leave it up to you.

You can just Destroy the threat and just hope the Galaxy and life would be safe and continued, however there's some collateral damage.

You can assume Control to end the threat and hopefully make things better.

You can Synthesize, an upgrade to the lives of the Galaxy in a hope to minimize or eliminate the need for a threat.

All the choices would end your threat which is the Reapers.

Or you can just flat out Refuse, feeling that the choices are inadequate or uncertain, or feel you're not up to the task of making a choice to save the Galaxy on behalf of the Galaxy, and just hand the reigns back to the Catalyst to finish dealing with its problem on its own.

Kind of poetic in its own right.

Maybe the fault lies with the execution or maybe just too many of the fans just wanted to blow up reapers, save the galaxy, wrap arms around LI, and go home smiling and laughing perhaps with some dead reapers in the background. No doubt a satisfying ending to a decent action flick.

Was ME1 poetic? ME2?
No, it was an excelent sci-fi action flick. There was no justification (beside EGO) to suddenly try and change the type of story in the last 10 mins of it.

Modifié par jstme, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:04 .

[GreyReaver]

Henioo wrote...

I wouldn't mind a "disney ending" if my choices led to it.

I would very much mind it if a hapopy ending was just one of three choices, and a guy who just started the series with ME3 could get as good an ending as I did.

Oh, wait, that's exactly what happened.

Agreed and well said. 

The choices/decisions you made throughout the entire series should have determend your ending in ME3 NOT the 3 canned endings.  This would have ensured a much more replayable game. As it is you have seen the three canned endings and if you don't like them then there is a huge disencentive to replay the 120 hours for an ending you already know and dislike and/or hate.

Personally I alway enjoy a happy ending much better than a grim, sad or bleak one. I really wanted those blue babies, a medal ceremony like in Star Wars, drinks with Jacob, picking up a seashell on the beach for Mordin, retiring and signing autographs with Garrus and dying of old age on some long forgotten planet surrounded by my children, friends and my LI.

BW forgt that ME3 is a sci-fi rpg.  Games are entertainment.  And most entertainment provides escapism through suspension of belief via a viable alternate reality (realism). BTW, Escapism in appropriate amounts in healthy, constructive and fun.

In an alternate reality sci-fi fantasy for suspension of belief to work there must be a consistent balance of reality  and non-realty. Games, (including videoe games) stories, even fantasies, daydreams, etc. are just different types of escapism. 

Let me clarify what I mean.  To me, suspension of belief is based on an alternate reality being coherant and real i.e., it has it's own rules, laws and physics and those are principles adhered to throughout the story.  When they are broken you are pulled out of that reality and set back down in the real world, because your suspension of belief has been broken. The magic spell of the story has been broken becasue of a violation or violations were to egregious for your mind to rationally bend the established rules of that reality and the illusion fades to smoke.

My problem is that BW writers go off on a bat-s#it crazy tangent in the last 10 minutes of the game and get al uber meta on us and take the, "Shepard has to make tough decisions along the way," to the Nth degree and become all
republican-style control freak preachy parents and putting Shepard into a dream state with a magic gun and a magic space child with magic endings that are totally inconsistent with the entire rest of the series. 

The explanation I like for the Theory of Narrative Causality is the reason something happens is that the story is better if that something happens.  Did the magic gun, magic star-child and 3 choice endings make ME3 better? I think gamers have spoken loud, clear and resoundingly, "NO!"

So, yeah, basicallly thank-you BW for breaking my suspension of beleif in the last 10 minutes an otherwise outstanding 120 hour or so series.

Modifié par GreyReaver, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:09 .

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Because apparantly, Bioware thinks gamers nowadays are so jaded and cynical they have to see the protagonist die horribly to feel anything

So when other games have sad endings it's ok but whne bw does it in a bitter sweet way...It's not?

are really they one-sided, it can have a sad ending but it shouldn't be every ending

More bitter sweet then sad. Every ending except for refuse has you save the galexy and stop the reapers. The only problem is it your Shepard who gets the short end of the stick.
Making one ending have an easy way out makes the other choices pointless.
So basicly, ME3 ending is happy for the universe but sad for Shepard.

[TheCrazyHobo]

I dont know, having Shepherd die to make everybody into Techno-Gods is pretty much the Happiest/Sappiest ending I have ever heard of. Not to mention the fact that is bleeding out and probably going to die within a few hours.

[o Ventus]

dreman9999 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Because apparantly, Bioware thinks gamers nowadays are so jaded and cynical they have to see the protagonist die horribly to feel anything

So when other games have sad endings it's ok but whne bw does it in a bitter sweet way...It's not?

You didn't actually read the post you quoted, did you?

I did. My post reflex that other games have sad and bitter sweet endings as well. My comment is to counter his Cynicism.

Your counterpoint has nothing at all to do with his original comment. At no point did iakus make any mention of other games and other developers.

[dreman9999]

jstme wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Unrealistic.
2. forgettable.
3. No impact.
4.done way to many times.
5.No growth with characters.
6. No real meaning.

1. Giant magic RBG waves 
2. Do not want to remember that. Not my canon.
3. Nothing you did previously has any impact.
4. Deus Ex copypasta.
5. Yup. 
6. Symbolic. No real meaning.
See, you desribed current ME3 endings. The question though was about a different one. Think of DA:O endings.  

1.destory is an emp weapon.REALISTIC. Control is a mass rewrite .Realistic. I'll give you synthesis but it unrealistic for a reson.

2.Your just sad tha you don't get your easy way out.

3.Everything you do in ME1,2 and 3 determins the condition of the crucible in the end the game. The condition of the crucible decides what choices you have at the end of the game. How is it thatyour choices don't matter?

4.In POST-EC...No.

6.It has meaning. You the one to find it. It clearly there if you look.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:20 .

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

jstme wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Unrealistic.
2. forgettable.
3. No impact.
4.done way to many times.
5.No growth with characters.
6. No real meaning.

1. Giant magic RBG waves 
2. Do not want to remember that. Not my canon.
3. Nothing you did previously has any impact.
4. Deus Ex copypasta.
5. Yup. 
6. Symbolic. No real meaning.
See, you desribed current ME3 endings. The question though was about a different one. Think of DA:O endings.  

1.destory is an emp weapon.REALISTIC. Control is a mass rewrite realistic. I'll give you synthesis but it unrealist for a reson.

2.Your just sad tha you don't get your easy way out.

3.Everything you do in ME1,2 and 3 determins the condition of the crucible in the end the game. The condition of the crucible decides what choices you have at the end of the game. How is it thatyour choices don't matter?

4.In POST-EC...No.

6.It has meaning. You the one to find it. It clearly there if you look.

in post-EC yep still the same from Deus Ex, Refuse from DE:HR

[dreman9999]

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Because apparantly, Bioware thinks gamers nowadays are so jaded and cynical they have to see the protagonist die horribly to feel anything

So when other games have sad endings it's ok but whne bw does it in a bitter sweet way...It's not?

You didn't actually read the post you quoted, did you?

I did. My post reflex that other games have sad and bitter sweet endings as well. My comment is to counter his Cynicism.

Your counterpoint has nothing at all to do with his original comment. At no point did iakus make any mention of other games and other developers.

 His point is based on pure 
Cynicism. He is basicly saying, it's bad for a dev to think the only way to get to the gamer is with sad endings or bitter sweet endings. I'm just pointing out the devs have had more sucess with having emotionally impacting sad endings in there games more then games with happy endings.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:19 .

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jstme wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Unrealistic.
2. forgettable.
3. No impact.
4.done way to many times.
5.No growth with characters.
6. No real meaning.

1. Giant magic RBG waves 
2. Do not want to remember that. Not my canon.
3. Nothing you did previously has any impact.
4. Deus Ex copypasta.
5. Yup. 
6. Symbolic. No real meaning.
See, you desribed current ME3 endings. The question though was about a different one. Think of DA:O endings.  

1.destory is an emp weapon.REALISTIC. Control is a mass rewrite realistic. I'll give you synthesis but it unrealist for a reson.

2.Your just sad tha you don't get your easy way out.

3.Everything you do in ME1,2 and 3 determins the condition of the crucible in the end the game. The condition of the crucible decides what choices you have at the end of the game. How is it thatyour choices don't matter?

4.In POST-EC...No.

6.It has meaning. You the one to find it. It clearly there if you look.

in post-EC yep still the same from Deus Ex, Refuse from DE:HR

Point to me the choice that puts everyone in a dark age of tech.

[dreman9999]

GreyReaver wrote...

Henioo wrote...

I wouldn't mind a "disney ending" if my choices led to it.

I would very much mind it if a hapopy ending was just one of three choices, and a guy who just started the series with ME3 could get as good an ending as I did.

Oh, wait, that's exactly what happened.

Agreed and well said. 

The choices/decisions you made throughout the entire series should have determend your ending in ME3 NOT the 3 canned endings.  This would have ensured a much more replayable game. As it is you have seen the three canned endings and if you don't like them then there is a huge disencentive to replay the 120 hours for an ending you already know and dislike and/or hate.

Personally I alway enjoy a happy ending much better than a grim, sad or bleak one. I really wanted those blue babies, a medal ceremony like in Star Wars, drinks with Jacob, picking up a seashell on the beach for Mordin, retiring and signing autographs with Garrus and dying of old age on some long forgotten planet surrounded by my children, friends and my LI.

BW forgt that ME3 is a sci-fi rpg.  Games are entertainment.  And most entertainment provides escapism through suspension of belief via a viable alternate reality (realism). BTW, Escapism in appropriate amounts in healthy, constructive and fun.

In an alternate reality sci-fi fantasy for suspension of belief to work there must be a consistent balance of reality  and non-realty. Games, (including videoe games) stories, even fantasies, daydreams, etc. are just different types of escapism. 

Let me clarify what I mean.  To me, suspension of belief is based on an alternate reality being coherant and real i.e., it has it's own rules, laws and physics and those are principles adhered to throughout the story.  When they are broken you are pulled out of that reality and set back down in the real world, because your suspension of belief has been broken. The magic spell of the story has been broken becasue of a violation or violations were to egregious for your mind to rationally bend the established rules of that reality and the illusion fades to smoke.

My problem is that BW writers go off on a bat-s#it crazy tangent in the last 10 minutes of the game and get al uber meta on us and take the, "Shepard has to make tough decisions along the way," to the Nth degree and become all
republican-style control freak preachy parents and putting Shepard into a dream state with a magic gun and a magic space child with magic endings that are totally inconsistent with the entire rest of the series. 

The explanation I like for the Theory of Narrative Causality is the reason something happens is that the story is better if that something happens.  Did the magic gun, magic star-child and 3 choice endings make ME3 better? I think gamers have spoken loud, clear and resoundingly, "NO!"

So, yeah, basicallly thank-you BW for breaking my suspension of beleif in the last 10 minutes an otherwise outstanding 120 hour or so series.

But the entire point of the last  choice was to bring the player to moral conflict with the choices at hand. Having an easy way out would destroy that concept.

[Dharvy]

jstme wrote...

Dharvy wrote...

The funny thing is, the more and more I read these forums, the more I start to appreciate the endings and what Bioware probably was trying to do. Their problem just seem to be the execution.

Shepard was either given or took upon the job of saving lives vs a Galaxy wide threat. And as you play through the 3 games you're trying to do everything you can do do just that.

End Game: You meet the king of the Reapers and find out that it was given a similar task during its cycle. Its solution? Reset button. But now meeting the Avatar of this cycle and the one tasked with ending the threat to Cycle/Galaxy which is the Reapers, the Catalyst hands over the reigns and basically leave it up to you.

You can just Destroy the threat and just hope the Galaxy and life would be safe and continued, however there's some collateral damage.

You can assume Control to end the threat and hopefully make things better.

You can Synthesize, an upgrade to the lives of the Galaxy in a hope to minimize or eliminate the need for a threat.

All the choices would end your threat which is the Reapers.

Or you can just flat out Refuse, feeling that the choices are inadequate or uncertain, or feel you're not up to the task of making a choice to save the Galaxy on behalf of the Galaxy, and just hand the reigns back to the Catalyst to finish dealing with its problem on its own.

Kind of poetic in its own right.

Maybe the fault lies with the execution or maybe just too many of the fans just wanted to blow up reapers, save the galaxy, wrap arms around LI, and go home smiling and laughing perhaps with some dead reapers in the background. No doubt a satisfying ending to a decent action flick.

Was ME1 poetic? ME2?
No, it was an excelent sci-fi action flick. There was no justification (beside EGO) to suddenly try and change the type of story in the last 10 mins of it.

Well, like I said, "a satisfying ending to an action flick."

[dreman9999]

jstme wrote...

Dharvy wrote...

The funny thing is, the more and more I read these forums, the more I start to appreciate the endings and what Bioware probably was trying to do. Their problem just seem to be the execution.

Shepard was either given or took upon the job of saving lives vs a Galaxy wide threat. And as you play through the 3 games you're trying to do everything you can do do just that.

End Game: You meet the king of the Reapers and find out that it was given a similar task during its cycle. Its solution? Reset button. But now meeting the Avatar of this cycle and the one tasked with ending the threat to Cycle/Galaxy which is the Reapers, the Catalyst hands over the reigns and basically leave it up to you.

You can just Destroy the threat and just hope the Galaxy and life would be safe and continued, however there's some collateral damage.

You can assume Control to end the threat and hopefully make things better.

You can Synthesize, an upgrade to the lives of the Galaxy in a hope to minimize or eliminate the need for a threat.

All the choices would end your threat which is the Reapers.

Or you can just flat out Refuse, feeling that the choices are inadequate or uncertain, or feel you're not up to the task of making a choice to save the Galaxy on behalf of the Galaxy, and just hand the reigns back to the Catalyst to finish dealing with its problem on its own.

Kind of poetic in its own right.

Maybe the fault lies with the execution or maybe just too many of the fans just wanted to blow up reapers, save the galaxy, wrap arms around LI, and go home smiling and laughing perhaps with some dead reapers in the background. No doubt a satisfying ending to a decent action flick.

Was ME1 poetic? ME2?
No, it was an excelent sci-fi action flick. There was no justification (beside EGO) to suddenly try and change the type of story in the last 10 mins of it.

So you never had to make a moraly conflicting choice in the me series...Ever?