378 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

M25105 wrote...

Nothing wrong with a happy ending, it's what the people want after all. Cue the "You don't speak for me! I happen to enjoy bittersweet grim dark endings, blabla [insert COD insult, cause it's the cheapest way to try and come across as an RPG fan] and so on and so on".

And, as stated before, bw wants to bring the player to moral conflict with the choices at hand. Having an easy ways out destroies that concept.

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Nothing wrong with a happy ending, it's what the people want after all. Cue the "You don't speak for me! I happen to enjoy bittersweet grim dark endings, blabla [insert COD insult, cause it's the cheapest way to try and come across as an RPG fan] and so on and so on".

And, as stated before, bw wants to bring the player to moral conflict with the choices at hand. Having an easy ways out destroies that concept.

What moral conflict requires Shepard to fry in every ending?

[Ridwan]

Really? I guess when I felt that awesome sense of accomplishment when I completed ME and ME 2 Bioware screwed up.

[KENNY4753]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Have the crucible be made is not the same ending. You have 4 vartly different endings that are all based on the condition of the crucible. Saying the crucible is made means only one ending is like saying having the face the archdemon in dragon age in one ending only. Or even have to attack the collector base in ME2 means only one ending. That's no the case at all. We have 4 choices to make that have 4 different endings with to the vary. It  not he same ending.

2. But it does matter it there is other ways to get ems. That does nto dicount the choices you make, that just mean you have more then one path to get to your results. 

1. I'm not saying that there is only 1 ending. Yes, no matter what the crucible gets built and does it's job, and yes there are 4 differnet endings, but what you aren't understanding about my thoughts is that no matter what you do in the game you can still get roughly the same total EMS points needed for all the different colored endings. Don';t bring the archdemon into this. In dragon age the only choice that effects what happens in the ending is Morrigan's ritual or who get's sent to death. Same with Mass Effect 3, the only choice that really effects the endings is what color you pick. Not how you got your EMS points.

2.What I am saying is that your choices throuhout the game do not change the endings to affect what descions were made throughout. Whether you cure the genophage or not you can still get the same ending as somebody who did. Whether you kill the geth or make peace, you can still make up the EMS points necessary to get the "best" endings.

[Dharvy]

@Dreman I understand where you're coming from but what they are trying to say is not that your choices don't matter at all, its just that your choices became just some number and are not really relative to their effect. The choices just boils down to collecting war assets for the Crucible not really making choices that have some kind of cause and effect.

I was on another thread about the endings and (wishful thinking, I know) we were discussing if they could add like some victory in Refuse based on a high EMS score but actually based on your choices. Say a guarantee 2-3 races are extinct or near extinction (or maybe all the races could be saved but greatly damaged) but your choices throughout the game effect the outcome of the Galaxy. The Genohage cure or sabotage could effect the Krogan or Salarian. Your interaction with Garrus and the Turians could effect the Turians survival. The Asari could be effected with your interactions and choices regarding Thessia, Samantha, and Liara. The choice to save the Rachni queen could do more than just take away a few EMS points but either help or destroy one of the races. And the minor races, Elcor, Volus, and Hanar could be effect somehow by decisions made throughout the game also maybe the fetch mission for the Elcor and Volus and the Hanar scene in the Citadel could play some part. If you made peace between the Geth and the Quarians, if you chose charm (rallied the forces) or intimidate (warn the forces) one or the other would decide which race its hit the hardest.

Basically they could just make it a point system similar to the Rannarch arc where you had to do several things to get enough hidden points to be able to achieve peace in the first place. So basically your choices determine which race is better suited to survive the Refuse ending.

Modifié par Dharvy, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:55 .

[KENNY4753]

Dharvy wrote...

@Dreman I understand where you're coming from but what they are trying to say is not that your choices don't matter at all, its just that your choices became just some number and are not really relative to their effect. The choices just boils down to collecting war assets for the Crucible not really making choices that have some kind of cause and effect.

That is exactly what I have been trying to tell him.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Nothing wrong with a happy ending, it's what the people want after all. Cue the "You don't speak for me! I happen to enjoy bittersweet grim dark endings, blabla [insert COD insult, cause it's the cheapest way to try and come across as an RPG fan] and so on and so on".

And, as stated before, bw wants to bring the player to moral conflict with the choices at hand. Having an easy ways out destroies that concept.

What moral conflict requires Shepard to fry in every ending?

Well, would a pure renegade player feel moral conflict over killing all synthetic life?

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Nothing wrong with a happy ending, it's what the people want after all. Cue the "You don't speak for me! I happen to enjoy bittersweet grim dark endings, blabla [insert COD insult, cause it's the cheapest way to try and come across as an RPG fan] and so on and so on".

And, as stated before, bw wants to bring the player to moral conflict with the choices at hand. Having an easy ways out destroies that concept.

What moral conflict requires Shepard to fry in every ending?

Well, would a pure renegade player feel moral conflict over killing all synthetic life?

umm No

[dreman9999]

Dharvy wrote...

@Dreman I understand where you're coming from but what they are trying to say is not that your choices don't matter at all, its just that your choices became just some number and are not really relative to their effect. The choices just boils down to collecting war assets for the Crucible not really making choices that have some kind of cause and effect.

I was on another thread about the endings and (wishful thinking, I know) we were discussing if they could add like some victory in Refuse based on a high EMS score but actually based on your choices. Say a guarantee 2-3 races are extinct or near extinction but your choices throughout the game effect the outcome of the Galaxy. The Genohage cure or sabotage could effect the Krogan or Salarian. Your interaction with Garrus and the Turians could effect the Turians survival. The Asari could be effected with your interactions and choices regarding Thessia, Samantha, and Liara. The choice to save the Rachni queen could do more than just take away a few EMS points but either help or destroy one of the races. And the minor races, Elcor, Volus, and Hanar could be effect somehow by decisions made throughout the game also maybe the fetch mission for the Elcor and Volus and the Hanar scene in the Citadel could play some part. If you made peace between the Geth and the Quarians, if you chose charm (rallied the forces) or intimidate (warn the forces) one or the other would decide which race its hit the hardest.

Basically they could just make it a point system similar to the Rannarch arc where you had to do several things to get enough hidden points to be able to achieve peace in the first place. So basically your choices determine which race is better suited to survive the Refuse ending.

But  preping for any war, choice do boil down to stats. Every war is like that. It not bad the ME3  does the same thing. Heck, DA:O came down to stats as well.
Your confusing the fact that morality does not matter with choice not mattering. It choices does matter, you just don't have only one path to do it.

You complint is no that you don't have no choice or choice does not matter. It's that BW did not give you rht e choices you want.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:09 .

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Nothing wrong with a happy ending, it's what the people want after all. Cue the "You don't speak for me! I happen to enjoy bittersweet grim dark endings, blabla [insert COD insult, cause it's the cheapest way to try and come across as an RPG fan] and so on and so on".

And, as stated before, bw wants to bring the player to moral conflict with the choices at hand. Having an easy ways out destroies that concept.

What moral conflict requires Shepard to fry in every ending?

Well, would a pure renegade player feel moral conflict over killing all synthetic life?

umm No

Then that's why Sharpard is told by the catalyst he would die in any choice he made.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:57 .

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Nothing wrong with a happy ending, it's what the people want after all. Cue the "You don't speak for me! I happen to enjoy bittersweet grim dark endings, blabla [insert COD insult, cause it's the cheapest way to try and come across as an RPG fan] and so on and so on".

And, as stated before, bw wants to bring the player to moral conflict with the choices at hand. Having an easy ways out destroies that concept.

What moral conflict requires Shepard to fry in every ending?

Well, would a pure renegade player feel moral conflict over killing all synthetic life?

What renegade score do you need to not walk into the explosion?

How many paragon points do I need to not be electrocuted in Control?

What' s the EMS do not disintigrate in the space magic in Synthesis?

[Henioo]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Henioo wrote...
I wouldn't mind a "disney ending" if my choices led to it.

I would very much mind it if a hapopy ending was just one of three choices, and a guy who just started the series with ME3 could get as good an ending as I did.

Oh, wait, that's exactly what happened.

Actually, I don't think a new ME3 game can get the "breath" ending. Except with MP, of course.

the breath scene is not even close to a disney ending either

Shouldn't have quoted Henloo's first paragraph there. My point was that importing a save does make a difference. Also at Rannoch and Tuchanka.. 

Sure, on a  vanilla game, that's true. I meant the other guy would play MP. 

You totally do not need to be invested in the series to get the same ending a person who perfected his or her playthrough did.

Before the EC and the slides, anyway.

[dreman9999]

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Have the crucible be made is not the same ending. You have 4 vartly different endings that are all based on the condition of the crucible. Saying the crucible is made means only one ending is like saying having the face the archdemon in dragon age in one ending only. Or even have to attack the collector base in ME2 means only one ending. That's no the case at all. We have 4 choices to make that have 4 different endings with to the vary. It  not he same ending.

2. But it does matter it there is other ways to get ems. That does nto dicount the choices you make, that just mean you have more then one path to get to your results. 

1. I'm not saying that there is only 1 ending. Yes, no matter what the crucible gets built and does it's job, and yes there are 4 differnet endings, but what you aren't understanding about my thoughts is that no matter what you do in the game you can still get roughly the same total EMS points needed for all the different colored endings. Don';t bring the archdemon into this. In dragon age the only choice that effects what happens in the ending is Morrigan's ritual or who get's sent to death. Same with Mass Effect 3, the only choice that really effects the endings is what color you pick. Not how you got your EMS points.

2.What I am saying is that your choices throuhout the game do not change the endings to affect what descions were made throughout. Whether you cure the genophage or not you can still get the same ending as somebody who did. Whether you kill the geth or make peace, you can still make up the EMS points necessary to get the "best" endings.

1. No, want you or any player the goes out of there way to get the ems point gets the best ending. People who play all 3 games can still get the bad ending because of bad choices and not doing search and rescue. Choice is not point less, it just has more then one path.

2.If you choice effect your ems, then it does. It the morality of the choice that don't matter.

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

umm No

Then that's why Sharpard is told by the catalyst he would die in any choice he made.

thats not why he said that, if it was then he wouldn't have said it to the Paragon Shepard

your literally trying to argue for the sake of arguing, because half the things you say doesn't even apply to the comments

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Nothing wrong with a happy ending, it's what the people want after all. Cue the "You don't speak for me! I happen to enjoy bittersweet grim dark endings, blabla [insert COD insult, cause it's the cheapest way to try and come across as an RPG fan] and so on and so on".

And, as stated before, bw wants to bring the player to moral conflict with the choices at hand. Having an easy ways out destroies that concept.

What moral conflict requires Shepard to fry in every ending?

Well, would a pure renegade player feel moral conflict over killing all synthetic life?

What renegade score do you need to not walk into the explosion?

How many paragon points do I need to not be electrocuted in Control?

What' s the EMS do not disintigrate in the space magic in Synthesis?

Morality has no relivency to what ending you get. That's my argument. You choices do.

So what if in the destroy choice you may or may not die. What matters is the fate of the galexy. My choice determine if destroy blows up  most of the gelexy or just effect synthetic life. Shepard living was never a garantee.
My goal was to save the galexy. My choice detumine if it's going to be rubble at the end of it or if the galexy has a bright future.
That in itself means choice matters.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:07 .

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

umm No

Then that's why Sharpard is told by the catalyst he would die in any choice he made.

thats not why he said that, if it was then he wouldn't have said it to the Paragon Shepard

your literally trying to argue for the sake of arguing, because half the things you say doesn't even apply to the comments

In destory he says all synthetic life would be destoryed in the destory choice and you are partly syntheitc. The possiblity of you dieing is stated.

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

So what if in the destroy choice you may or may not die. What matters is the fate of the galexy. My choice determine if destroy blows up  most of the gelexy or just effect synthetic life. Shepard living was never a garantee.
My goal was to save the galexy. My choice detumine if it's going to be rubble at the end of it or if the galexy has a bright future.
That in itself means choice matters.

I guess choice only matters if they're choices you care about. 

If you don't care what happens to Shepard, being railroaded into a suicide pact with the Catalyst doesn't matter.

[KENNY4753]

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Have the crucible be made is not the same ending. You have 4 vartly different endings that are all based on the condition of the crucible. Saying the crucible is made means only one ending is like saying having the face the archdemon in dragon age in one ending only. Or even have to attack the collector base in ME2 means only one ending. That's no the case at all. We have 4 choices to make that have 4 different endings with to the vary. It  not he same ending.

2. But it does matter it there is other ways to get ems. That does nto dicount the choices you make, that just mean you have more then one path to get to your results. 

1. I'm not saying that there is only 1 ending. Yes, no matter what the crucible gets built and does it's job, and yes there are 4 differnet endings, but what you aren't understanding about my thoughts is that no matter what you do in the game you can still get roughly the same total EMS points needed for all the different colored endings. Don';t bring the archdemon into this. In dragon age the only choice that effects what happens in the ending is Morrigan's ritual or who get's sent to death. Same with Mass Effect 3, the only choice that really effects the endings is what color you pick. Not how you got your EMS points.

2.What I am saying is that your choices throuhout the game do not change the endings to affect what descions were made throughout. Whether you cure the genophage or not you can still get the same ending as somebody who did. Whether you kill the geth or make peace, you can still make up the EMS points necessary to get the "best" endings.

1. No, want you or any player the goes out of there way to get the ems point gets the best ending. People who play all 3 games can still get the bad ending because of bad choices and not doing search and rescue. Choice is not point less, it just has more then one path.

2.If you choice effect your ems, then it does. It the morality of the choice that don't matter.

1. Once again as I have stated many times before is that it's not that your choices don't matter at all, its all they did was become numbers and their effect doesn't truely do anything. All your choices just let you collect war assets for the Crucible and for fighting the Reapers. There is no effect from specific choices being made that change the ending.

And when I said about the fetch quests and scanning I was talking about for example: 2 completionist gamers, who did completley opposite choices in the priority missions will both do every fetch quest and side mission but make opposite descions in each mission will still have enough EMS points to choose any ending. If they choose the same color they get the same result. All the other descions in the priority mission do not directly effect the endings.

2. This has nothing to do with morallity. You are just using moral conflict as an arguement where moral conflict isn't even being talked about. Forget about morallity for a second and focus on what we are debating, EMS effect or lack there of on the endings.

[KENNY4753]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

umm No

Then that's why Sharpard is told by the catalyst he would die in any choice he made.

thats not why he said that, if it was then he wouldn't have said it to the Paragon Shepard

your literally trying to argue for the sake of arguing, because half the things you say doesn't even apply to the comments

In destory he says all synthetic life would be destoryed in the destory choice and you are partly syntheitc. The possiblity of you dieing is stated.

Yes he says that, but it doesn't matter whether you are paragon or renagade he still says the same thing.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So what if in the destroy choice you may or may not die. What matters is the fate of the galexy. My choice determine if destroy blows up  most of the gelexy or just effect synthetic life. Shepard living was never a garantee.
My goal was to save the galexy. My choice detumine if it's going to be rubble at the end of it or if the galexy has a bright future.
That in itself means choice matters.

I guess choice only matters if they're choices you care about. 

If you don't care what happens to Shepard, being railroaded into a suicide pact with the Catalyst doesn't matter.

Who said anything about not caring for Shepard. Sure, you can care for him or her...In fact I don' t think there is  one person who played ME who did not  care fore Shepard...but the fact remain that do not mean the player should have any choice they want. It about whats at had that is possible.

Let's take Enders game for example. Their is not one person who read the book and did not care for Ender. Ask anyone who read the book if Ender should have a happy ending and they would say yes. But Ender get so much metal trama by the end of the book  that it's hard to swallow. But not one person states that it a bad book because Ender does not get a happy ending in that book.

It's the same cause with that with ME ending except one thing, their players are begging for an easy way  who miss that concept bw was going for.

[dreman9999]

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

umm No

Then that's why Sharpard is told by the catalyst he would die in any choice he made.

thats not why he said that, if it was then he wouldn't have said it to the Paragon Shepard

your literally trying to argue for the sake of arguing, because half the things you say doesn't even apply to the comments

In destory he says all synthetic life would be destoryed in the destory choice and you are partly syntheitc. The possiblity of you dieing is stated.

Yes he says that, but it doesn't matter whether you are paragon or renagade he still says the same thing.

Which is why I'm saying morality does not matter. BW made so it does not matter what your morality is to the ending. That does not mean choice does not matter.
Morality is not the same as choices. You should not get a happy ending becasue your paragon or renegade. You not garanteed an easy out of the choices any way. It's about bring the player to moral conflict.

[TheCrazyHobo]

I will ask this again: How is Synthesis not a happy/sappy ending? Our dying protagonist gives up his life so that everyone may be Techno-Gods.

[KENNY4753]

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

umm No

Then that's why Sharpard is told by the catalyst he would die in any choice he made.

thats not why he said that, if it was then he wouldn't have said it to the Paragon Shepard

your literally trying to argue for the sake of arguing, because half the things you say doesn't even apply to the comments

In destory he says all synthetic life would be destoryed in the destory choice and you are partly syntheitc. The possiblity of you dieing is stated.

Yes he says that, but it doesn't matter whether you are paragon or renagade he still says the same thing.

Which is why I'm saying morality does not matter. BW made so it does not matter what your morality is to the ending. That does not mean choice does not matter.
Morality is not the same as choices. You should not get a happy ending becasue your paragon or renegade. You not garanteed an easy out of the choices any way. It's about bring the player to moral conflict.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait....now you are saying morallity does not matter. I recall on multiple threads you argueing that moral conflict was what Bioware intended for the endings and now you are saying morallity doesn't matter. Either somebody change your views or you are just a hypocritcal troll

[dreman9999]

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

umm No

Then that's why Sharpard is told by the catalyst he would die in any choice he made.

thats not why he said that, if it was then he wouldn't have said it to the Paragon Shepard

your literally trying to argue for the sake of arguing, because half the things you say doesn't even apply to the comments

In destory he says all synthetic life would be destoryed in the destory choice and you are partly syntheitc. The possiblity of you dieing is stated.

Yes he says that, but it doesn't matter whether you are paragon or renagade he still says the same thing.

Which is why I'm saying morality does not matter. BW made so it does not matter what your morality is to the ending. That does not mean choice does not matter.
Morality is not the same as choices. You should not get a happy ending becasue your paragon or renegade. You not garanteed an easy out of the choices any way. It's about bring the player to moral conflict.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait....now you are saying morallity does not matter. I recall on multiple threads you argueing that moral conflict was what Bioware intended for the endings and now you are saying morallity doesn't matter. Either somebody change your views or you are just a hypocritcal troll

Morality is not the same as moral conflict. I'm saying that if you played ME with out ever thinking about morality and just logic, you would easilly get the highest possible score. I mean the it matter not if you play as a renagade or paragon to get the best ending. But no person truely exsist with out morality. The ending makes you face you own morality with an extremely hard choice to make. The ending is morality vs logic of the even on hand.
If you moraliy is more important to you then choosing , you refuse and allow everyone you care for die for your morality.
I'm saying moraliy is not requaired to defeat the reapers but no one does not have a morality.

[KENNY4753]

dreman9999 wrote...
Morality is not the same as moral conflict. I'm saying that if you played ME with out ever thinking about morality and just logic, you would easilly get the highest possible score. I mean the it matter not if you play as a renagade or paragon to get the best ending. But no person truely exsist with out morality. The ending makes you face you own morality with an extremely hard choice to make. The ending is morality vs logic of the even on hand.
If you moraliy is more important to you then choosing , you refuse and allow everyone you care for die for your morality.
I'm saying moraliy is not requaired to defeat the reapers but no one does not have a morality.

But what I am saying is that if EAware wanted to make it so your morallity (paragon/renegade) didn't cause you to recieve different ending choices, then they obviously didn't intend for the player to go through moral conflict in the end because your morallity is what gives a person their views on what to do. So a renegade person wouldn't care about the consequences as long as they go the job done so they would not be morally conflict at at. Your morallity affects what type of moral conflict (if any) a person has.

Modifié par KENNY4753, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:39 .