20 réponses à ce sujet

[shaktiboy]

 I'll try to keep this short and sweet for easy transmission to your product owners and game designers:

The overall entertainment value is high enough to make the cost of the core game worthwhile. While we always yearn for more play hours to game end, you put enough in with all the sidequests and gear hunting to satisfy.

The two DLC available at release are a different story. Not nearly enough play hours in Warden's Keep or The Stone Prisoner. I regret the money spent on these two DLC and won't buy future DLC if they're similarly far too short in terms of quests and combat and play hours.

You blew it on the overall design of your multiple irreversible decision paths through the myriad mainline quests and side quests. Blew it bigtime.  Why? Because the dialog choices do not in any way imply or indicate the final result in terms of items and rewards that will be made available or denied forever. The net result is that a player needs to be a research expert to determine what dialog paths to take, which means we're essentially forced to look at detailed spoiler info on most quests to ensure we gain access to the equipment/items/talents/specializations/etc that are important to us. Hasn't the game industry by now figured out that to the majority of the playerbase, story takes a huge backseat to gear and abilities? I mean, this potentially huge negative impact is pervasive throughout the game. Just a few examples:

• If you side with the werewolves you lose access to infinite elfroot
• If you make the wrong dialog choices with a Desire demon you permanently lose access to the Blood Mage spec
• If you don't make exactly the right choices in The Antivian Crows quest (you can blow this one in numerous ways), you forever lose access to the only Grandmaster Dweomer rune in the game.
• If you side with Caridan and destroy the Anvil of the Void, you can't get a 5th army (the Golems) to help you in your fight against The Blight.
• Etc. Etc. Etc. There are many dozens of ways you can permanently cut off access to gear and abilities and major gameplay options that you might want AND YOU WILL NEVER KNOW IT unless you've done your homework beforehand by plowing through the wikis and forums.  IMO this is unforgivable.  It's perfectly fine to have the player choices affect the "roleplay flow" and narrative of the story, but it's NOT okay to have player choices permanently affect access to valuable gear/abilities without making such ramifications crystal clear before they are required to make the choices. As things stand now it completely breaks the story immersion to be compelled to research quest outcomes before you actually start following the quest.

You've heard lots of gripes about your challenge scaling mechanics, I'm sure, but my take on the main problem with challenge scaling is in the opacity of how it's done and the detrimental effect of that opacity:

• If you're looking for an "optimum" challenge level throughout the game progression, the areas you should visit are in this order based on the lower/upper limits of the challenge scaling in each area: Ostagar/Kokari (levels 3-5) > Mage Tower (level 6+) > Redcliffe (level 6+) > Brecilian Forest (level 7+) > Haven (via Urn of Andraste quest cycle, level 8+) > and only then is the remaining choice evenly split between Ozrammar and Denerim (both are level 10+ in challenge scaling). For details on this, see: http://dragonage.gul...allenge_scaling
• Okay so with the preceding background details about challenge scaling, why on EARTH do you not make this clear in game?  The game dialog and world map travel options after Lothering make it all too easy for a player to feel like they could go straight to Orzammer or Denerim and start in either of those areas first. Assuming they do so and manage to work their way through, by the time they go back to Mage Tower or Redcliffe or Brecilian Forest or Haven, etc, they are near or possibly have exceeded the upper limits of the challenge scaling in those areas.
• This attempt at making the game seem non-linear while masking the true linearity of your challenge scaling is the number one reason some people think the game is too hard and others think the game is too easy.  Why not make this linearity more obvious and guide players towards the best challenge progression?  Or why not make the challenge scaling truly equal among the four areas you can head to after Lothering?
• To compound things even further, you have one legimate, intentionally-designed game mechanic for zooming all the way to the soft cap at level 25. Not a bug; intentional design provided you make certain storyline choices. (Hint: it has to do with Elves, Party Camp emissaries, and elfroot.)  Again: clearly not a bug or exploit but a deliberately designed method to jump directly from level 7 to 25 if you're so inclined. And with all your public and ambiguous descriptions of level scaling, players who take this course are obviously blowing right past the upper limits of your challenge scaling for most of the encounters in the game except for certain boss fights. But they'll never know it unless they're research experts.

Finally, it's really poor design in a modern roleplay game to omit a respec option for players.  It's 2010 already--the design choice to force players to reroll a char from scratch or revert a game to an earlier save to correct mistakes in their character build choices (which is due to poor/inadequate/ambiguous info on the real impact of your build choices) is soooooo 1993.  Get over yourselves and do the smart thing and put a respec option for characters and companions into the core game.  Just make it cost a lot of money or require a difficult quest, etc. if you want it to seem "balanced" to the old school players who are a vast minority of your potential customer base.


In your future DLC and expansions, please:

• Make the DLC content at least 4x longer than the first two DLC were.
• Please stop this really infuriating practice of hiding the impact of dialog decisions on gameplay mechanics and options. You can do this in two ways: either make the gameplay impact abundantly clear in the dialog response itself or in an optional tooltip or something on each dialog option, or else just remove all gameplay impacts from the dialog paths, keeping the dialog limited to roleplay/storyline impacts only.
• Please make your challenge scaling lower/upper limits more *obvious* (even if it's buried in a FAQ or Prima Guide or whatever, but ideally within the game itself, like right on the world map--make it an optional tooltip if you like) and please guide the player more strongly into the optimum linear progresson path to match challenge scaling limits to player level during their progression.
• Please put a character/companion respec mechanic into the core game for a steep cost (either a lot of gold to buy a respec potion/token or a difficult quest to complete, et.)

Modifié par shaktiboy, 26 décembre 2009 - 05:53 .

[T0paze]

I completely disagree.



It is a certain degree of uncertainty that makes the best quests in this game (or other games, for that matter) particularly appealing.



Also, an RPG should have at least a number of quests with distant, not immediate consequences. First, it makes the player think about every conversation choice. Second, it's just more natural.

[KnightofPhoenix]

shaktiboy wrote...

• If you side with Caridan and destroy the Anvil of the Void, you can't get a 5th army (the Golems) to help you in your fight against The Blight

And you just didn't expect that? Seriously? lol The whole point of the choice is to see if you are an idealist or a pragmatist.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 décembre 2009 - 04:49 .

[fantasypisces]

I agree with TOpaze (Disagree with OP) this game is about choices, and you can't expect to get every reward by following on path (the good path, or the evil path), your choices matter and they have both consequences and rewards.



And I think the Shale DLC was fine, yes the little dungeon was short, but the point of that DLC was for the companion, not the dungeon. I can kind of agree about Warden's Keep, it was a bit too short for the cost. But I did enjoy it.



So I would prefer future DLC to be longer, but ultimately a lot of work goes into even the short bits, so I can understand.

[bas273]

# Please put a character/companion respec mechanic into the core game for a steep cost (either a lot of gold to buy a respec potion/token or a difficult quest to complete, et.)

Er.. why would they do that? Players who want to respec their character/companions can simply download the respec mod.
I don't use the respec mod because it's an immersion breaker imo. Don't get me wrong, it's a great mod but I don't want Ravens to show up everywhere carrying a potion.
Bioware could've included a Tome that allows you to reassign skills/talents etc. but this comes with a few problems:
a) Many talents/spells have certain skill requirements (for example: Dual-Weapon Training requires the Combat Training skill). What if you reassign your skills and go for Herbalism instead of Combat Training? Then you don't meet the requirements but yet you still have Dual Weapon training. Creating lots of warning pop-ups is a lot of work and very annoying for the player.
You can cheat by reassigning the talents and skills of your main character. For example: this is a very easy way to obtain some of the achievements (main character learned all rogue talents, etc.) and you can repeatedly reassign your skills to be able to create poisons, health poultices, succesfully run coercion skill checks etc.
c) It is not lore friendly. If I turn Morrigan in a Blood Mage she still has all her Shapeshifter dialogue.

And I love the fact that many outcomes of your actions are not predictable. I destroyed the Anvil of the Void and wondered why I could only summon four armies during the final battle. Now I've started a new game and this time I'm not going to destroy the anvil. So imo these tough choices increase the replay value of Dragon Age: Origins.

Modifié par bas273, 26 décembre 2009 - 04:58 .

[amat3rasu]

I agree with the OP that the Shayle DLC was not as grand the way it was publicized. Now I haven't tried Warden's Keep yet but will get on it pretty soon.



As for the dialog choices in DAO, I really think that in most instances it lacked a bit (Taking into consideration KotOR and Mas Effect).



As for the part about gathering armies, I totally agree with KnightofPhoenix.

[RurouniSaiya-jin]

Considering The Stone Prisoner is free with all new copies of the game, I don't see why anyone is complaining. But even if you had to pay for that DLC, the price is justified when you factor in the fact that Shale comes with the DLC, complete with dialogue for pretty much everything.

[shaktiboy]

Note that I've added a whole rant about the opacity of how challenge scaling in this game works to my OP. Worth a re-read if you've already seen my OP before this time stamp. This is information that most players have no clue about.

[shaktiboy]

T0paze wrote...

I completely disagree.

It is a certain degree of uncertainty that makes the best quests in this game (or other games, for that matter) particularly appealing.

Also, an RPG should have at least a number of quests with distant, not immediate consequences. First, it makes the player think about every conversation choice. Second, it's just more natural.

I  have no problem with your notion of "distant, not immediate consequences". I agree with that notion. My argument is that those consequences should not be completely hidden from the player at the time they're forced to make a decision.  My point is that yes, the storyline/RP consequences are hinted at well enough in the current dialog options, but the effect on gear you can acquire or not, and specializations you can acquire or not, etc. is completely hidden. You'll never know you passed up an opportunity to have access to unlimited elfroot, or a grandmaster dweomer rune, or golems in your final battle, etc. until it's far far far too late. The dialog choices don't even remotely hint at such consequences.

That's not fun or exciting; it's simply frustrating and disappointing.

[robertthebard]

So how could you not know if you kill a shopkeeper that his shop won't be there?



How could you not know if you destroy the anvil, and kill the only other person that really knows anything about using it, that you won't have golems?



Before making absolute statements about the worth of DLC, you should probably be sure that you truly represent the whole of the community. You don't represent me, and I resent the implication that you do.



Regarding the "order" of quests, I have done Orzammar first. I have also done some of the side quests in Denerim before going to Orzammar first. Again, according to you, these are too hard, but I'm willing to bet that I'm not the only one that saw all the Oghren vids and thought, "Man, I need to get him earlier so that I can get this banter in my game". Because you cannot do something does not mean it cannot be done. If you say you can do this, then why present this in your post?

[Serogon]

This has to be either a joke topic or a troll topic. You were surprised that destroying the source of golems, which are almost nonexistant at that point, makes you unable to use golems? And you think that infinite experience for virtually no money isn't an exploit? You're supposed to just turn in whatever stuff you find, not buy several hundred/thousand of them and turn them in. As for the blood magic complaint, you have a somewhat valid complaint there. It's unfair that there's only one opportunity to get it, but from you've said so far, you clearly wouldn't have any problem just getting the blood magic, reloading, and doing whatever you intended to do before. As for the Dweomer rune, ffs, it's hardly better than a master one. If I'm remembering correctly, it's a 2% increase over the master. OH NOES!

EDIT: Oh, and about your comment about how story should take a backseat to abilities and skills, you're playing the wrong game. One of the big things of this game was consequences for your actions. Go play a Bethseda game or an MMORPG or something. DISCLAIMER: I love Bethesda's games, but it's impossible to deny that they don't spend as much time in the story department as they should.

Modifié par Serogon, 26 décembre 2009 - 05:55 .

[robertthebard]

Serogon wrote...

This has to be either a joke topic or a troll topic. You were surprised that destroying the source of golems, which are almost nonexistant at that point, makes you unable to use golems? And you think that infinite experience for virtually no money isn't an exploit? You're supposed to just turn in whatever stuff you find, not buy several hundred/thousand of them and turn them in. As for the blood magic complaint, you have a somewhat valid complaint there. It's unfair that there's only one opportunity to get it, but from you've said so far, you clearly wouldn't have any problem just getting the blood magic, reloading, and doing whatever you intended to do before. As for the Dweomer rune, ffs, it's hardly better than a master one. If I'm remembering correctly, it's a 2% increase over the master. OH NOES!

EDIT: Oh, and about your comment about how story should take a backseat to abilities and skills, you're playing the wrong game. One of the big things of this game was consequences for your actions. Go play a Bethseda game or an MMORPG or something. DISCLAIMER: I love Bethesda's games, but it's impossible to deny that they don't spend as much time in the story department as they should.

More to the point about your edit, this is a story driven RPG.  Let me restate that for clarity, story driven RPG.  This means that the story is more important than anything else.  No story, no game.  It has a story to tell, and uses you and your companions to tell it.

[shaktiboy]

robertthebard wrote...

So how could you not know if you kill a shopkeeper that his shop won't be there?

How could you not know if you destroy the anvil, and kill the only other person that really knows anything about using it, that you won't have golems?

Before making absolute statements about the worth of DLC, you should probably be sure that you truly represent the whole of the community. You don't represent me, and I resent the implication that you do.

Regarding the "order" of quests, I have done Orzammar first. I have also done some of the side quests in Denerim before going to Orzammar first. Again, according to you, these are too hard, but I'm willing to bet that I'm not the only one that saw all the Oghren vids and thought, "Man, I need to get him earlier so that I can get this banter in my game". Because you cannot do something does not mean it cannot be done. If you say you can do this, then why present this in your post?

Dude: I gave MY feedback to Bioware. Not to you. You can agree or disagree that's fine, but making personal attacks on MY feedback to Bioware is unwarranted and rude.

As for your argument about killing a shopkeeper and not expecting his shop to disappear, that's just spurious in so many ways:

• One, you don't get the Grandmaster rune from Ignacio, you get it from a different NPC called Cesar. In other similar decisions in the game, the NPC who goes away is sometimes replaced by a different NPC with different gear. Is it unreasonable to suspect that Cesar might simply take over Ignacio's shop, or that some NPC would appear to replace Ignacio and Cesar would now be working for the new boss?
• Regardless of the preceding bullet, unless you've done your homework ahead of time (the primary reason for my complaint about this aspect of the game), you don't know that killing Ignacio will ultimately result in permanent loss of access to the only 10% spell resist rune in the game, which for Human or Elf warriors is more or less a required item if you want to meet a goal of 100% spell resist for your gameplay and tactical preferences. The game is full of decisions like this that permanently remove access to gameplay choices you might be working towards BUT THAT HIDE THESE NEGATIVE IMPACTS COMPLETELY.

It's simple: do anything you want with the RP/storyline aspects of the game. Surprise us in this regard; that's good stuff.  But don't restrict a player's options to gameplay/tactics/gear options. Never, ever take those away without making abundantly clear through the game dialog choices that "If you choose A, you'll gain tactic/gear/spec X but you'll lose tactic/gear/spec Y and vice-versa".  If you do that, I have no problem. Forcing players to make a hard choice is fine, but make sure they're fully aware of the consequences of the choice you're asking them to make. Don't make it a completely non-intuitive surprise.

[Grommash94]

I like the risky nature in the choices of this game. All the better. Making it predictable would suck, horribly.

[Series5Ranger]

So basically you want everything spelled out for you?
-Where's the fun in that? I kind of knew what I was giving up when I destroyed the Anvil of the void.
-Who cares about a Grandmaster Dweomer Rune? The price of selling out my ideals by working with
the Crows wasn't worth it. (At least on the character I'm currently playing)
-Should the game come with hint options so the loot ****s can get all the pretty shinies?
-I'm sorry I just don't see your point. The point of this game is that choices matter, and it's a Role Playing game.

Modifié par Series5Ranger, 26 décembre 2009 - 06:11 .

[Serogon]

About what I said earlier about how it's barely an upgrade: assuming it really is absolutely required, replacing it with a Master is looking at 98% spell resistance vs. 100%. And you're complaining. Once again, this has to be a troll topic. And before you say "You're just saying that because you don't agree!", I'm not. I'm saying that because you're being incredibly irrational and you seem to think that this game is something completely different than what it is, and you're whining that Bioware didn't make the game exactly to your liking. The game doesn't hand hold you and tell you exactly what you'll miss out on by pissing someone off or killing them. Get over it.

[Squiggles1334]

Do you want an in-game pop-up warning you before choosing to kill Ignacio that following through with that choice will remove the only grandmaster dweomer rune from the game? It's not like this is the very first time ever that in-game RP choices have eliminated gear and loot availability.

[TMZuk]

I agree that DLC should have more substance. Of course, the five euro's I payed for Warden's Keep is not a lot, but the fact alone that you cannot re-enter the fortress is bad. All together it was to little.



I also would like to see more options in how you adress the NPC's. I want to play a disgruntled warden, very much like how Lady Dryden is described in the DLC. "Better to have died cleanly, than end as this monstrous nothing.* But so far the only dissatisfied replies you can give Wynne and Alistair are whiny ones, unless I have missed something. And I so despise the dialogue options Wynne gives. She is SO overbearing and SO annoying, I simply refuse to have her along at all.



I'd love to see a return to Highever expansion for the human noble origin. Better fleshed out mainplot. And some sidequests worth doing. And finally, either removes the Blackstone Irregulars and the Mages Collective, or flesh them out. As they are, I ignore them.

[AtreiyaN7]

This is a  single-player RPG, not an MMORPG like WoW (and I do play WoW with my guild). In an MMROPG, you need to have respecialization because people need to fulfill different roles at different times. That's why it's in there (that and for necessary experimentation, plus noobs who screw up). In a single-player game like DA:O or in any other RPG tracing its lineage back to a PnP game like D&D, once you make a decision you don't get to "undecide" it. Seriously, you should be perfectly capable of reading the abilities and choosing pretty damned carefully before you make any decisions about your class. If you screw up, then that's your fault and you should have to deal with the fallout (or buy an ability book to make up for your error). I think it would be highly disruptive to the narrative of the story if all of a sudden you decided one day that you wanted to go from being a 2H berserker to tank mode and then the next day decide that you're going to be a DW warrior instead. In the fictional world of Thedas, I doubt a mage suddenly decides he's going blood mage instead of being a shapeshifting apostate, etc.

Have you ever heard about there being consequences to your actions? This applies to both choosing your abilities AND making major decisions in DA:O. It's about being true to your character (in theory), not choosing the optimal path to get everything you want. If you want to power game or something, then that's your choice - go buy a strategy guide and analyze every possible outcome. However, it's not some kind of God-given right that you should "know" every possible outcome beforehand or that BioWare should somehow make it clear to you what those outcomes will be. It's SUPPOSED to be ambiguous, and you're SUPPOSED to agonize over making a choice that affects the game. That's the whole point: Grey Wardens have to make hard choices.

I side with the Lady of the Forest and have Zathrian break the curse - always - because that's the kind of person my character is. Therefore, I end up with the Dalish and freeing the werewolves from the curse (because it's the right thing to do from a moral standpoint). Ditto on siding with Caridin. In my opinion, getting the golem army isn't worth the cost of indulging a power-hungry and insane Paragon who chose to betray her entire House and give them over to the darkspawn. That being said, while I entirely disagree with your points on respecialization AND being spoon-fed information about all potential outcomes, you have a point on the DLC perhaps. I was satisfied, but there is room for improvement (I thought they did well, but there could be more depth, content & playtime).

** Edit: And of course, I forgot to mention that although it's the "right" thing to do from a moral standpoint to support Caridin over Branka and destroy the Anvil, the resulting impact on the dwarves as a people is negative - I  didn't like it, but I accepted it as my responsibility. Actions & consequences... *shrug*

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 26 décembre 2009 - 09:15 .

[RSTORM50]

I like the idea of a disguntled warden as well. If you had to be conscripted it just doesn't seem right to all of a sudden fall into line as the willing hero. I'd love to play my conscripted warden as someone with an attitude about the whole thing. It would certainly make it easier to do things for personal gain/satisfaction as you get on with the whole saving the country from the blight stuff. (Yeah, I get the fact the taint drives you to fight the darkspawn, but if I were conscripted I should have the ability to be p*ssed off about it and my gameplay decisions should have the option to reflect that.)



To the OP, many decisons we make SHOULD be irreversible and the game should not have to tell you beforehand that you're about to make a decison that is going to affect you in some adverse way.



Your examples of some of these decisions should really be self evident anyway. Destroying the Anvil of the Void rather makes creating golems an impossible feat and the game DOES tell you that via Branka letting you know if you side with her you get the golem army.



Siding with the werewolves means you're about to destroy the Dalish including the merchant that's going to sell you the endless elfroot. I really wouldn't think you should expect a werewolf to take over that shop or be surprised when you return to get your elfroot when the camp is full of werewolves and not the elves you exterminated.





Anyway, for a future expansion... I've very unsatisfied with the fate of Andraste's Ashes in the endgame. The chantry only acknowledges that the resting place has been found years later? Oh hell no! Too many people know those ashes were found, AND where they are for the chantry to be able to hide the fact for several years. (Besides, Brother G. publishes his memoirs about it only months after the finding them, and in one ending with Leliana she goes on an expedition to the Urn only 30 days after the fact with an army.)



An expansion idea could revolve around the ashes and the possible scenarios involving some bad folks trying to control and exploit that asset. (As Morrigan foretold in the game.) Perhaps it could kick off with you lounging about in your castle and a badly injured member of Leliana's expedition finds you to let know of what happened. A fun prelude to a trip back to Haven would be travelling to where your former companions ended up and recruiting them to go rescue Leliana. (Or at least the ones you can find.)



Just an idea, but IMO the ashes should play a prominent role in any future storytelling in the Dragon Age line, since they are the most holy item in all of the lands.

[robertthebard]

shaktiboy wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

So how could you not know if you kill a shopkeeper that his shop won't be there?

How could you not know if you destroy the anvil, and kill the only other person that really knows anything about using it, that you won't have golems?

Before making absolute statements about the worth of DLC, you should probably be sure that you truly represent the whole of the community. You don't represent me, and I resent the implication that you do.

Regarding the "order" of quests, I have done Orzammar first. I have also done some of the side quests in Denerim before going to Orzammar first. Again, according to you, these are too hard, but I'm willing to bet that I'm not the only one that saw all the Oghren vids and thought, "Man, I need to get him earlier so that I can get this banter in my game". Because you cannot do something does not mean it cannot be done. If you say you can do this, then why present this in your post?

Dude: I gave MY feedback to Bioware. Not to you. You can agree or disagree that's fine, but making personal attacks on MY feedback to Bioware is unwarranted and rude.

As for your argument about killing a shopkeeper and not expecting his shop to disappear, that's just spurious in so many ways:

• One, you don't get the Grandmaster rune from Ignacio, you get it from a different NPC called Cesar. In other similar decisions in the game, the NPC who goes away is sometimes replaced by a different NPC with different gear. Is it unreasonable to suspect that Cesar might simply take over Ignacio's shop, or that some NPC would appear to replace Ignacio and Cesar would now be working for the new boss?
• Regardless of the preceding bullet, unless you've done your homework ahead of time (the primary reason for my complaint about this aspect of the game), you don't know that killing Ignacio will ultimately result in permanent loss of access to the only 10% spell resist rune in the game, which for Human or Elf warriors is more or less a required item if you want to meet a goal of 100% spell resist for your gameplay and tactical preferences. The game is full of decisions like this that permanently remove access to gameplay choices you might be working towards BUT THAT HIDE THESE NEGATIVE IMPACTS COMPLETELY.

It's simple: do anything you want with the RP/storyline aspects of the game. Surprise us in this regard; that's good stuff.  But don't restrict a player's options to gameplay/tactics/gear options. Never, ever take those away without making abundantly clear through the game dialog choices that "If you choose A, you'll gain tactic/gear/spec X but you'll lose tactic/gear/spec Y and vice-versa".  If you do that, I have no problem. Forcing players to make a hard choice is fine, but make sure they're fully aware of the consequences of the choice you're asking them to make. Don't make it a completely non-intuitive surprise.

Funny, when I look, I see that this is the Spoiler forum, open to all registered users.  Hmm, seems like I have a D under my portrait, and no problems posting here, guess that means I'm a registered user.  You posted your "feedback" in a public forum, and took offence at my commenting on it.  Hell, I didn't even go all fanboy on you, I just pointed out the flaws in your logic.  If this offended you so badly, why not just send an email?  Nobody on the forums would be responding to you then.