823 réponses à ce sujet

[iSousek]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I guess what I'm saying is, "what type of content do you think SHOULD be in the DLC?"

I think a good DLC should take all the fan-favourite aspects of the franchise and present it in the concentrated smaller package.

For example, take a look at Lair of the Shadow Broker. This DLC had all the "great" elements of the Mass Effect : Story and mystery, action, exploration and character interaction.

This DLC was story driven. We were helping our friend/romance Liara to fight the Shadow Broker, a person who was the biggest engima (besides the reapers) since the first day we stepped in the Mass Effect universe. You would get the answers behind this enigma and enter the world of the Shadow Broker.

It was filled with action, but in a tasteful way, and action in it didn't override the narrative. You even had a simple, yet entertaining, mechanic of driving the car.

On top of it, it was filled with interactions with Liara(some liked, some maybe didn't) and expanded not only on her romance arc, but also on her general character progress.

This is why I think that LOTSB is generally considered the "best thing evah"

IMO, Levi DLC is very close to it, it has all those signature ME elements, but I think it lacks in the character interaction department. For me personally, that is the only minus of Levi - lack of character development of any kind. Although to be honest, maybe Leviathan DLC wasn't the best DLC for that sort of thing.

[Wulfram]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wouldn't one way to make sure they weren't as overvalued be ensuring higher quality content was within them?

Considering the 2 DLC released so far supposedly = 4/5ths of the game in value, that's not very realistic.

DLC cost = 800 points = £6.  Mass Effect III = £15 from Origin.

(Bizarrely 1600 points = £13.  What?)

[Sparda16]

BlueDemonX wrote...

Seems people just don´t understand how and why DLCs are made. This whole thing about "belonging in the core game" etc. is getting old, to be honest.

Yes, but in the case of the 'From Ashes' and Leviathan' dlc they are integral to the Mass Effect plot. In ME 1 you find out the Prothians were the last civilization to be wiped out by the Reapers, and the whole game is focused on finding the Prothian beacons, etc.

The Leviathan dlc, many fans believe is forshadowing dlc to try and explain/fix the ludricrous Catalyst/God Kid AI ending/s which just came out of nowhere in the last 10 mins of the game.

DLC which is integral to the plot should be in the main game itself and not leave fans guessing or having to use their imagination to work out what is going on. This is simply bad storytelling, and not 'art' as Bioware/EA PR people are trying to spin it.

DLC like LotSB in ME 2 which helps expand on the ME universe but has no impact on the main plot is the DLC which fans are after/deem acceptable in terms of value and content.

And thank's for taking the time to engage with us ME fans(you being Dragon Age), it's more than the ME mods do for us.

[EnvyTB075]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

The think about dlc is they are always overvalued and it always pisses people off for 1- 2 hours of play time, also dlc does not follow regular standards of pricing they never seem to lose value except when they are on "sale", so to answer your question a more traditional expansion pack should be dlc

Wouldn't one way to make sure they weren't as overvalued be ensuring higher quality content was within them?

The thing is Leviathan wasn't really all that high quality. Theres nothing in there that makes me want to buy it at all. Doesn't do anything to affect the ending, doesn't add anything really "new" that the Catalyst doesn't already tell you and there are no new enemies to face at all or at least a different method of fighting (MP weapon upgrades don't count, they make it even easier). Its just Reapers, more Reapers, Reapers and Reapers, all of which we all know how to dispatch rather quickly now due to multiplayer. There is no challenge left in the game.

I'm however one of those people who believes the combat engine of ME2 to be superior, where the addition of the flashbang in LotSB was actually a game changer, instead of just rolling and getting away with silly tactics, ME2 would have punished you had you decided that rushing in without thinking about where you were going. I for one liked that. To make the DLC worthwhile to me would be to add something new to the game as a whole and add a tangible difference to the ending other than (in simple terms);

Shep: "oh i met your creators"
Catalyst: "thats nice, now jump into the beam"

While you can say that ME2's DLC didn't really add anything either, the tone of that game was different. It didn't end at the Suicide Mission like ME3 and ME1 end at the finale, you can do all those little side quests that you felt were unnecessary for fun. It was essentially a sandbox environment, and the DLC fit the tone. Overlord was admittedly lackluster, but again fit the tone of the game. I also expected some greater variance in dialogue further than what is in ME3 as is and/or significantly different consequences for having played the DLC, which was a heavy influence in my purchase descision.

Essentially for the DLC for ME3 to be worthwhile for me, they would have to add more than just 400 EMS points to my total of 10,000. I shouldn't be able to feel satisfied with the content whilst watching someone else play it on youtube. Essentially add a new enemy, open up another option for the ending or be able to argue back to the catalyst and paragon dialogue your way to victory or something like that. How about exploring Garrus' family a bit further, not only because i'm a Garrusmancer, but because that was kinda a big thing in the LotSB files. How about what happens to Sidonis?

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 16 septembre 2012 - 01:45 .

[Siran]

iSousek wrote...

IMO, Levi DLC is very close to it, it has all those signature ME elements, but I think it lacks in the character interaction department. For me personally, that is the only minus of Levi - lack of character development of any kind. Although to be honest, maybe Leviathan DLC wasn't the best DLC for that sort of thing.

Leviathan had plenty of character interaction, the squad banter to me was one of the things that really stood out. Of course you can't have a big character development in a DLC that is situated mid-game. You could do that with LotSB since Liara didn't have a big part in ME2 and never was a squadmate until then, so you could develop her character really well without coming into conflict with ME2 in itself, but it severly lacks in forms of squad banter, which is my single critique point of LotSB.

[FlamingBoy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

The think about dlc is they are always overvalued and it always pisses people off for 1- 2 hours of play time, also dlc does not follow regular standards of pricing they never seem to lose value except when they are on "sale", so to answer your question a more traditional expansion pack should be dlc

Wouldn't one way to make sure they weren't as overvalued be ensuring higher quality content was within them?

yeah, but there are very few example of that not only in bioware but the whole industry

nor does higher quality content explain why dlc does not depreciate or appreciate based on demand, it comes off as a scam cutting up the experience and then selling them in bits and pieces, then implying that you cannot have the whole experience of the videogame u just bought without buying dlc

[Twinzam.V]

iSousek wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I guess what I'm saying is, "what type of content do you think SHOULD be in the DLC?"

I think a good DLC should take all the fan-favourite aspects of the franchise and present it in the concentrated smaller package.

For example, take a look at Lair of the Shadow Broker. This DLC had all the "great" elements of the Mass Effect : Story and mystery, action, exploration and character interaction.

This DLC was story driven. We were helping our friend/romance Liara to fight the Shadow Broker, a person who was the biggest engima (besides the reapers) since the first day we stepped in the Mass Effect universe. You would get the answers behind this enigma and enter the world of the Shadow Broker.

It was filled with action, but in a tasteful way, and action in it didn't override the narrative. You even had a simple, yet entertaining, mechanic of driving the car.

On top of it, it was filled with interactions with Liara(some liked, some maybe didn't) and expanded not only on her romance arc, but also on her general character progress.

This is why I think that LOTSB is generally considered the "best thing evah"

IMO, Levi DLC is very close to it, it has all those signature ME elements, but I think it lacks in the character interaction department. For me personally, that is the only minus of Levi - lack of character development of any kind. Although to be honest, maybe Leviathan DLC wasn't the best DLC for that sort of thing.

I think Levy dlc feels unecessary.
Let me explain, you buy a book (game), read it and reach the ending. Then the publisher releases a panphlet (dlc) that fits in the middle of the book and explains for example why something is square and not round.
I mean its all nice and all but i already know the ending, how much impact that tidbit of info has in the story?
Wouldnt be better to release something that expands the story after the ending, like rebuilding or going after the remnants of the bad guys or something. 
Middle dlc doesnt expand or change the story, it feels more like a pamphlet than a pocket book that adds something to the story.
That's the kind of feeling i get from this kind of dlc, it doesnt add anything new, no new weapons, no new character, just information that feels "yeah could be important but you can live without it anyway".

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 16 septembre 2012 - 01:45 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

**** just got real

[LilyasAvalon]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I guess what I'm saying is, "what type of content do you think SHOULD be in the DLC?"

KAL'REEGAR! <3

[Siran]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

The thing is Leviathan wasn't really all that high quality. Theres nothing in there that makes me want to buy it at all. Doesn't do anything to affect the ending, doesn't add anything really "new" that the Catalyst doesn't already tell you and there are no new enemies to face at all or at least a different method of fighting. Its just Reapers, more Reapers, Reapers and Reapers, all of which we all know how to dispatch rather quickly now due to multiplayer. There is no challenge left in the game.

To be honest, that's not the fault of Leviathan and LotSB wasn't all that hard, too. The flashbang grenade was introduced back in the Kasumi DLC and nothing new to LotSB. Leviathan did have different elements that weren't there in the vanilla ME3, like the escort missions or the "Pizza delivery" variant which was even a bit different than in the MP itself and quite challenging.

[Wulfram]

Leviathan or something like it really should have been part of the main game, but it's exclusion is incompetence not malice.

There's no real foreshadowing in the actual game because the writers clearly had no idea how they were going to end it as they were writing. Whereas both DLC do show some awareness of the ending.

[EnvyTB075]

Siran wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

The thing is Leviathan wasn't really all that high quality. Theres nothing in there that makes me want to buy it at all. Doesn't do anything to affect the ending, doesn't add anything really "new" that the Catalyst doesn't already tell you and there are no new enemies to face at all or at least a different method of fighting. Its just Reapers, more Reapers, Reapers and Reapers, all of which we all know how to dispatch rather quickly now due to multiplayer. There is no challenge left in the game.

To be honest, that's not the fault of Leviathan and LotSB wasn't all that hard, too. The flashbang grenade was introduced back in the Kasumi DLC and nothing new to LotSB. Leviathan did have different elements that weren't there in the vanilla ME3, like the escort missions or the "Pizza delivery" variant which was even a bit different than in the MP itself and quite challenging.

Eh, i remembered the flashbangs the most in LotSB, because i was thinking "wait a minute, who are these white clad dudes" and i spent half the time looking at their names. Either way, still a new gameplay mechanic that punished me more than a couple of times, also ME2's gameplay was more challenging to begin with, and that small detail was enough for me.

[LilyasAvalon]

Wulfram wrote...

Leviathan or something like it really should have been part of the main game, but it's exclusion is incompetence not malice.

There's no real foreshadowing in the actual game because the writers clearly had no idea how they were going to end it as they were writing. Whereas both DLC do show some awareness of the ending.

I disagree. Not every fans wants to know what the Reapers are. If it's a DLC, it can at least be optional.

[Shermos]

I feel so sorry for Mike and all the other devs/writers, especially Hudson and Walters. I want to write a letter of apology to Bioware even though I've always defended the ending and never hurled out any abuse.

Modifié par Shermos, 16 septembre 2012 - 01:52 .

[Reever]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

BlueDemonX wrote...

Seems people just don´t understand how and why DLCs are made. This whole thing about "belonging in the core game" etc. is getting old, to be honest.

100% agree, I don't care how crucial the information in dlc is. If it's how BioWare want to tell their story, let them.

Well, then again, that isn´t quite right as well. You still have to differentiate in what is crucial information for the vanilla game and what could be still crucial, but is optional.

Only what can you do if people still believe it should have been in the vanilla game? I had Javik from the beginning thanks to having bought the CE, but to be honest I could have lived without him.
Sure, in the original version of the game he was supposed to be the Catalyst, but with that changing, he didn´t have any major role anymore, thus being in the DLC is legit. And the DLC wasn´t supposed to be part of the core game anyway, even if it was 1st day DLC. But people don´t want to believe that, even after getting a game you can play for 30 hours or so...

People are sometimes really too demanding, without proper reasons and argumentation. Of course, I´m not always taking what Bioware says for granted, but Priestly once explained the whole progress of devoloping and programmind DLC in one thread, and it sounded logical and legit.
There are some people that still think DLC is the devil´s tool, anyway. You can´t please everybody anyway, that´s that.

I´ll be pleased as long as the content  in the DLC warrants the price. I´m the one who decides if it´s worth buying or not afterwards.

[Xilizhra]

I'd say I felt sympathetic for Gamble, but I'd be lying. And that would be wrong. I actually find it sort of hilarious. I know these people are obligated to defend the endings' sack of crap, but surely they can't expect anyone to buy what they say?

I'm sure some low-level people have been working hard. They weren't the ones being criticized.

[firstarioch]

Good afternoon everyone !!! its 2 30 pm in london ...muggy as fu*k...

Right let me tell you something interesting...

For past few weeks I have been mentioning Mass Effect ending on various forums and discussion groups which have nothing to do with gaming , Bioware or even Mass Effect...

I just wanted to see the exposure of this game, how varied the fans are and how people respond to it.

I must say I was astounded ... I was talking to some people on Law related forums for instance and as soon soon I mentioned ME endings I opened can of worms ....lol
Some of these people started ranting about the endings , the game etc ..it went on and on...

Than i went to buy a book on amazon and I had to exchange few emails with guy im buying it from we started chatting about life, hobbies etc and conversation went onto videogames and ME ending...

Its like I stirred a nest of angry hornets....

Today just now I m arranging to go To Eurogamer expo with a meetup group . Like minded people who have interest in mutlimedia industry , apps, computers, etc.. I mentioned ME ending ....
straight away again Like I stirred the hornets nest....

Im sure many of you have similar experieces etc... This made me think and proves many forums right ...
ME 3 endings are universally hated and everyone says that they spoilt the series for them...
So pretending that its minority is simply not the truth .

So Casey Hudson saying how hard the team worked its missing the point and its insulting...

First we never questioned their work ethics ..If you want to be successful you have to work hard right ? I mean show me a successful person who has not worked hard...

What he still doesnt get it that he and the company lied to us repeatedly about the endings...promising many and delivering none...We never got apoligiises for it ...

We never ever liked the direction of the endings nor how the series ended nor the reveal end plot which is nonsensical in itself.
And still he thinks he has done a good job. That just is baffling .Man lives in Goldfish bowl and he just can seem to look below..

It it very sad...I know many people who are not very rich but love Gaming and Bioware in particular.
For them having kids and responsibilities to fork out 50 pounds for a game in pre order is a lot of money, But they are gamers and they love ME series.
Casey words are insult to all of us.
They could have gone out of it in style by doing IT ending and laving it open ..that way everyone would be happy but no. We got Extended Cut nonsense which perpetuated the nonsense we had before...

DRAGON AGE 3 will have to be EPIC BEYOND our drreams to save Bioware from this fiasco.

[crimzontearz]

Nyoka wrote...I'm not going to buy DLC whose purpose is to fill gaps and correct mistakes. If they did a DLC that added neutral dialogue options to most interactions, I wouldn't buy it. Or if they made a DLC that added some non-linearity to the main missions.Leviathan is one of those, like the EC was. Its purpose is to foreshadow the catalyst and to give it a reason for its actions, so it looks less like a nonsensical asspull. It's, in practical terms, a story patch. I don't pay for technical patches; shouldn't pay for story ones, either.

but people worked hard on it so it is excused right? gah, I know I should avoid this place like the plague








and I love how some people still listen to Alan's comments and take them at face value

[fiendishchicken]

Sorry, Mr. Gamble is in the wrong.

This is why I am not a fan of BW anymore. They lower themselves to a fan's level. The smart thing would be to not respond. Yes I do despise the endings and I was vocal about it, but this has nothing to do with it. This is about base professionalism. You keep your calm, even when everything else is going to hell. You keep your focus and a logical head. In the military we call it our bearing. How can you expect to accomplish your mission if your busy yelling or getting something stuck up in your head? Another issue I take as a problem is the level of condescending loathing I feel from BW. Like it's out fault because we don't understand their vision. But I'm to cut it off there, as I don't feel like starting another ending debate.

[iSousek]

Siran wrote...

iSousek wrote...

IMO, Levi DLC is very close to it, it has all those signature ME elements, but I think it lacks in the character interaction department. For me personally, that is the only minus of Levi - lack of character development of any kind. Although to be honest, maybe Leviathan DLC wasn't the best DLC for that sort of thing.

Leviathan had plenty of character interaction, the squad banter to me was one of the things that really stood out. Of course you can't have a big character development in a DLC that is situated mid-game. You could do that with LotSB since Liara didn't have a big part in ME2 and never was a squadmate until then, so you could develop her character really well without coming into conflict with ME2 in itself, but it severly lacks in forms of squad banter, which is my single critique point of LotSB.

By character interaction, I meant interaction between Shepard and the companion, not just some few-lines banter between companions themselves. That's why I gave LOTSB as an example. But yeah, I agree that Levi DLC wasn't really the best place for some deeper character content.

[DiebytheSword]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Well, depends. The story makes a lot more sense with it than without it. So, if you don't mind not knowing what the hell is happening and how something as important to the story as the "Catalyst" came about, then no. It's not essential.

I guess the thing is, if Leviathan is written since people are not satisfied, wouldn't it make sense that it explains more?

The thing that always got me about the Javik one is that people felt he was so important and the general vibe I got was that a lot of people hated that it was Day One DLC because they really wanted to experience his content and people felt BioWare nickel and dimed them.

At the same time, shouldn't we make DLC that people really want to experience? Shouldn't we release other DLC to help flesh out the story? Would people be more satisfied if the contents were in a more traditional "expansion pack" or even a sequel?

I honestly have to say that this is the conclusion I came to concerning the day one DLC.

I would rather have DLC add something to the overall story because it is integral.  I would rather have the DLC matter, and be worth my money and time than have it be that tricky tightrope walk of extra, but still good.

Lair of the Shadowbroker is considered the best ME DLC for very good reasons, and it strikes the notes I mentioned above, its integral, it matters, and yet its so much more.

I purchased the N7 edition, so I enjoyed From Ashes from the start.  I enjoyed Bring Down the Sky, Stolen Memories, Overlord, and Shadowbroker.

I was less enthused about Arrival, but it was servicable: it hit the bare minimum, it mattered, but it seemed to make ME2 matter less.

[shepskisaac]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'd say I felt sympathetic for Gamble, but I'd be lying. And that would be wrong. I actually find it sort of hilarious. I know these people are obligated to defend the endings' sack of crap, but surely they can't expect anyone to buy what they say?

I'm sure some low-level people have been working hard. They weren't the ones being criticized.

Gamble is a DLC producer. If anything, he would be the one working the longest/hardest, just like movie directors need to stay on the set all day long and then some more in the cutting room and then some more in a meetings with the studio while low-level people are already home.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 16 septembre 2012 - 02:04 .

[plfranke]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I guess what I'm saying is, "what type of content do you think SHOULD be in the DLC?"

I don't really think dlc has a place in the game at all, really. The game should come out complete. If you're introducing things that are essential to the plot, then you've sold an incomplete story (which I feel Mass Effect 3 was in many ways). If you're bringing in things that don't matter at all to the plot then it's pointless.

There was a guy that tweeted Mike Gamble once and said is this just gonna be "busy work dlc" and Mike said "what the hell is busy work dlc?" The guy could have worded it better but basically what he meant was stuff that doesn't matter. At the end of a trilogy where Leviathan confirms that we won't get to see any of our major war assets making a difference in the final battle, dlc becomes pointless. It's frustrating to spend money on dlc that's advertised as "something that can kill a Reaper" yet we don't see them killing any Reapers in the final stage of the game. You can achieve the same things with or without them.

You also asked me if I thought Leviathan was essential to the game. That's up for debate. I'm of the group that thinks the endings were atrocious. One of the reasons for this was the poorly foreshadowed Catalyst. Not only do I think the information in Leviathan should have been in the original game, I think it should have probably been in Mass Effect 2 and then expanded upon in Mass Effect 3. I feel that the Catalyst was a retcon of prior explained lore. If you're going to retcon your stuff in the final installment of a series, you should at least give the retcon to your fans in the original product for no extra charge. Not only is Leviathan an expansion of bad writing it's also unethical business.

[Code_R]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Sorry, Mr. Gamble is in the wrong.

This is why I am not a fan of BW anymore. They lower themselves to a fan's level. The smart thing would be to not respond. Yes I do despise the endings and I was vocal about it, but this has nothing to do with it. This is about base professionalism. You keep your calm, even when everything else is going to hell. You keep your focus and a logical head.

Finally someone else can see it