Do the mages deserve their freedom or are the Templars right to imprison them in the Circle Towers? This question does not have an easy answer, in my opinion, but I'm sure that each person has a side that they at least lean towards.
Should the mages be imprisoned just for being who they are? They cannot choose to have magic, they are born with it and it's wrong to punish them just because they exist.
However, there is always the demons. They stalk mages, looking for the weak willed ones or the ones who seek power above all else. All a mage has to do is one simple spell of Blood Magic and they don't just endanger themselves, but everyone around them as well. The mages need to be oppressed in order to protect the innocent of Thedas.
Should they just be watched over by the Templars or should it be the Chantry's sole mission to rid Thedas of all mages?
Or should the mages try to take over and rebuild the Imperium to its former glory?
Who's in the right? Mages or Templars?
Débuté par
Warden661
, sept. 17 2012 05:46
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#2
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 07:02
PsychoBlonde
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Answer: Yes.
As individuals with free will, Mages ought to have exactly the same rights as anyone else. However, the rights of mages don't preclude or supersede the fact that other people have the right to take steps to protect themselves FROM mages, especially since mages ARE dangerous.
What those steps need to be kind of depends on what methods of protection are available. Keep in mind, also, most people start showing their mage powers when they're pretty young (although they may go undetected for years or even their entire lives).
Ultimately, as it's been shown in the games, the only thing that can control a mage is . . . the mage himself, and even then, not always. It takes some pretty serious investment in education and training to enable even *some* mages to harness their abilities.
So, if you take all that, the proper thing to do IS to have dedicated authorities who find mages, gather them up, and then sequester them from the general populace until such time as the mage has demonstrated they have control over their abilities. Then they *ought* to be free to go out into the world and do as they please just like anybody else (to the extent that everybody else is free to do "as they please" anyway.)
That's how it ought to work. Is that how it DOES work? Not so much. Templars are drawn from the ranks of the religiously fanatical instead of simply being a unit of Mage Police/Socialworkers. Oversight and accountability are poor at best. Situations vary from place to place--in Tevinter, the inmates are obviously running the asylum, whereas in Kirkwall mages were being viciously abused, made Tranquil, or even murdered by the paranoid Meredith and her cadre of vicious thugs.
So, yeah, both groups are right, the Templars are right that mages are dangerous and something needs to be done to control them. The Mages are also right that (at least some) of the Templars are out of control and abusing their authority. Both groups have also committed horrible atrocities in their attempts to "remedy" these problems.
As individuals with free will, Mages ought to have exactly the same rights as anyone else. However, the rights of mages don't preclude or supersede the fact that other people have the right to take steps to protect themselves FROM mages, especially since mages ARE dangerous.
What those steps need to be kind of depends on what methods of protection are available. Keep in mind, also, most people start showing their mage powers when they're pretty young (although they may go undetected for years or even their entire lives).
Ultimately, as it's been shown in the games, the only thing that can control a mage is . . . the mage himself, and even then, not always. It takes some pretty serious investment in education and training to enable even *some* mages to harness their abilities.
So, if you take all that, the proper thing to do IS to have dedicated authorities who find mages, gather them up, and then sequester them from the general populace until such time as the mage has demonstrated they have control over their abilities. Then they *ought* to be free to go out into the world and do as they please just like anybody else (to the extent that everybody else is free to do "as they please" anyway.)
That's how it ought to work. Is that how it DOES work? Not so much. Templars are drawn from the ranks of the religiously fanatical instead of simply being a unit of Mage Police/Socialworkers. Oversight and accountability are poor at best. Situations vary from place to place--in Tevinter, the inmates are obviously running the asylum, whereas in Kirkwall mages were being viciously abused, made Tranquil, or even murdered by the paranoid Meredith and her cadre of vicious thugs.
So, yeah, both groups are right, the Templars are right that mages are dangerous and something needs to be done to control them. The Mages are also right that (at least some) of the Templars are out of control and abusing their authority. Both groups have also committed horrible atrocities in their attempts to "remedy" these problems.
#3
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 07:10
Lotion Soronarr
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Ya know, that "templars are all religious fanatics" is nothing more than taking a quote to a redicolous extreeme.
Tempars are chosen mostly for their piousness and dedication to duty. That does not equate fanatical mage-hater.
Piousness is not much of an issue in Thedas, were 99% of the populate is Andrastian anyways.
And dedication to duty is actually a good trait. Something you want.
Tempars are chosen mostly for their piousness and dedication to duty. That does not equate fanatical mage-hater.
Piousness is not much of an issue in Thedas, were 99% of the populate is Andrastian anyways.
And dedication to duty is actually a good trait. Something you want.
#4
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 07:28
Kaiser Shepard
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Templars, since they are the solution to the problem the mages represent.
#5
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 07:35
SgtElias
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Oh no. A Mage/Templar thread. I promised myself I wouldn't post, I'd just go to bed . . .
But nooooo. Must post. Curse you, willpower.
I agree, but I still think that the majority (yes, the majority) of templars end up that way after years of service. Right or not, I think losing friends and comrades to the abuses of magic tends to make one forget that the hostilities between the two groups is a cycle with culprits on both sides.
But to answer the OP, I'm pretty vehemently pro-mage and always have been. This has been discussed to death, and most people have already decided what they think, and are going to continue to think that (myself included!). I feel strongly that the mages should govern (and educate) themselves.
But that's just my two cents.
But nooooo. Must post. Curse you, willpower.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Tempars are chosen mostly for their piousness and dedication to duty. That does not equate fanatical mage-hater.
I agree, but I still think that the majority (yes, the majority) of templars end up that way after years of service. Right or not, I think losing friends and comrades to the abuses of magic tends to make one forget that the hostilities between the two groups is a cycle with culprits on both sides.
But to answer the OP, I'm pretty vehemently pro-mage and always have been. This has been discussed to death, and most people have already decided what they think, and are going to continue to think that (myself included!). I feel strongly that the mages should govern (and educate) themselves.
But that's just my two cents.
Modifié par SgtElias, 17 septembre 2012 - 07:37 .
#6
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 08:08
SirGladiator
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I like mages, mages are cool, I think most everybody agrees that playing as a mage is fun and cool, etc. As for who is 'right', neither side has a monopoly on rightness, the key is for both sides to work together as allies, not at cross purposes as enemies. Mages and Templars are both extremely cool and important, and what they do is extremely important. When one side has too much power, and decides to use it against the other, bad things tend to happen, there's really no way to avoid that.
To my way of thinking, in an ideal world a young person who is discovered to be a mage would still be taken to the Circle, because they absolutely require 24/7 supervision and training so that they can learn to handle their powers, and protected from being taken over like Connor in DAO. However, they should not in any way be isolated from their families, that's obviously cruel and unnecessary, the families should be allowed to visit them regularly, and spend plenty of time with them. Then once they're an adult, and have passed all the tests that show they're in full control of their powers and are not a danger to society, they should be free to go if they so choose, and have all the same rights as anybody else. The Templars job is to protect society from rogue mages, and to help protect the mages themselves. They should be the mages best friends, not their worst enemies. Obviously some evil Templars would rather see mages as something akin to slaves, and some evil Mages would prefer to see Templars as an obstacle to exercising ultimate power, but aside from folks like that, most regular folks on each side would no doubt prefer to get along and live peacefully, and in DA3 if there's a way to help make that vision a reality, that's the way I'm going to go.
To my way of thinking, in an ideal world a young person who is discovered to be a mage would still be taken to the Circle, because they absolutely require 24/7 supervision and training so that they can learn to handle their powers, and protected from being taken over like Connor in DAO. However, they should not in any way be isolated from their families, that's obviously cruel and unnecessary, the families should be allowed to visit them regularly, and spend plenty of time with them. Then once they're an adult, and have passed all the tests that show they're in full control of their powers and are not a danger to society, they should be free to go if they so choose, and have all the same rights as anybody else. The Templars job is to protect society from rogue mages, and to help protect the mages themselves. They should be the mages best friends, not their worst enemies. Obviously some evil Templars would rather see mages as something akin to slaves, and some evil Mages would prefer to see Templars as an obstacle to exercising ultimate power, but aside from folks like that, most regular folks on each side would no doubt prefer to get along and live peacefully, and in DA3 if there's a way to help make that vision a reality, that's the way I'm going to go.
#8
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 09:06
Lotion Soronarr
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SgtElias wrote...
Oh no. A Mage/Templar thread. I promised myself I wouldn't post, I'd just go to bed . . .
But nooooo. Must post. Curse you, willpower.Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Tempars are chosen mostly for their piousness and dedication to duty. That does not equate fanatical mage-hater.
I agree, but I still think that the majority (yes, the majority) of templars end up that way after years of service. Right or not, I think losing friends and comrades to the abuses of magic tends to make one forget that the hostilities between the two groups is a cycle with culprits on both sides.
Well, that kind of expected. Conflict and loss tends to harden poeple.
Imagine you are a templar.
And you keep seing mages you trust (or even love) turn to abominations or turn to blood magic and kill your friends.
We see how poeple react to even things like failed relationships. They become more cotious and less trusting. They do not want to get hurt, so they avoid getting attached. You see it with soldiers in every army in the world.
Well, this is 100 times worse.
With repeated negative experiences and trauma, a normal human deals in two ways - either walls himself off, becoming emotionally numb or starts to hate whatever object caused this.
It's no surprise mages and templars share no great bonds of love. And this wouldn't radicly change even if mages were outside of the circles. Tempalrs would still have to interrvene and resentment would still build.
#9
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 09:11
Lotion Soronarr
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SirGladiator wrote...
To my way of thinking, in an ideal world a young person who is discovered to be a mage would still be taken to the Circle, because they absolutely require 24/7 supervision and training so that they can learn to handle their powers, and protected from being taken over like Connor in DAO. However, they should not in any way be isolated from their families, that's obviously cruel and unnecessary, the families should be allowed to visit them regularly, and spend plenty of time with them. Then once they're an adult, and have passed all the tests that show they're in full control of their powers and are not a danger to society, they should be free to go if they so choose, and have all the same rights as anybody else. The Templars job is to protect society from rogue mages, and to help protect the mages themselves. They should be the mages best friends, not their worst enemies. Obviously some evil Templars would rather see mages as something akin to slaves, and some evil Mages would prefer to see Templars as an obstacle to exercising ultimate power, but aside from folks like that, most regular folks on each side would no doubt prefer to get along and live peacefully, and in DA3 if there's a way to help make that vision a reality, that's the way I'm going to go.
Your proposal is not practical or possible.
There is no prof fthat a mage is not a danger to society. The Harrowing proves nothing other than you didn't get possed by this one demon THIS time.
A smart mage could easily tell the demon "I'll accept your pact, but AFTER I pass this test and the templars let me out of the Circle." He walks out and gets possesed a few days later. Whoopdy do.
And for once, I would really hate it if there was a perfect "rainbows and sunshine" solution to a dillema that doesn't have one (and shouldn't).
#10
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 09:29
KingRoxas
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Both/Neither
Modifié par Kingroxas, 17 septembre 2012 - 09:31 .
#11
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 10:55
Kaiser Arian XVII
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Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Templars, since they are the solution to the problem the mages represent.
Mostly this.
It is said that the blight is created by pride of men... to think they're greater than the Maker. It can be related to arrogant Mages, not Templars who are the sentinels of the Chantey.
The answer is obvious.
#12
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 11:29
Welsh Inferno
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Neither. They're both nutty. There's a middle ground somewhere.
#13
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 02:19
Uccio
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Mages. Mages are born. Templars are made by men, they can be unmade.
#14
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 02:39
Beerfish
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Oh the popular opinion will be all for the mages, their freedom , sunhsine and puppies. Easy to feel that way seeing as we can't experience the horror of mages going bad.
#15
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 03:28
Renmiri1
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Sinuphro wrote...
mages are the good guys here
QFT
#16
Posté 18 septembre 2012 - 01:30
Vandicus
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Well the question comes down to this.
Is it acceptable to force people to undergo the training in the Circle and live their lives under watch of the Templars in order to prevent the world from being another Tevinter Imperium?
Yes, the choice is between either Chantry management or rule by the Tevinter Imperium. This may on the surface seem bleak or extreme, but that's how the lore is written. Historically, the Tevinter Imperium was a normal monarchy, much like Fereldan, until it was taken over by a mage. It is pretty inevitable that unregulated magecraft results in a mage ruling over the lesser mortals. To make matters worse, talent at magic has no bearing on a person's intelligence or their capacity to function as a leader, so unlike the real life historical analogy of people who have useful talents rising to the top, its people who win a genetic lottery, and tends to encourage moral corruption. A mentally incompetent person or a serial killer could very well be born with magical talent, and all this doesn't even account for the whole demons constantly trying to possess mages.
Rule by a Tevinter Imperium style government(short of world enlightenment there's no way mages on average would be morally superior to the average mundane human, and mages are much more likely to be morally corrupt due to unearned power) or a system that regulates mages and impinges upon their personal freedom.
Personally I would just try to exterminate mages entirely(assuming its genetic) or try to find some way to destroy magic. From a greater good standpoint, the amount of suffering and misery caused by mages(from slavery of the most personal sort[aka mind control] to war to the Blight itself) is entirely disproportionate to the number of mages.
Commit evil to destroy a greater evil(me)
Commit a lesser evil to restrain evil(templars)
Allow a greater evil to remain to avoid committing evil(pro mage crowd)
Is it acceptable to force people to undergo the training in the Circle and live their lives under watch of the Templars in order to prevent the world from being another Tevinter Imperium?
Yes, the choice is between either Chantry management or rule by the Tevinter Imperium. This may on the surface seem bleak or extreme, but that's how the lore is written. Historically, the Tevinter Imperium was a normal monarchy, much like Fereldan, until it was taken over by a mage. It is pretty inevitable that unregulated magecraft results in a mage ruling over the lesser mortals. To make matters worse, talent at magic has no bearing on a person's intelligence or their capacity to function as a leader, so unlike the real life historical analogy of people who have useful talents rising to the top, its people who win a genetic lottery, and tends to encourage moral corruption. A mentally incompetent person or a serial killer could very well be born with magical talent, and all this doesn't even account for the whole demons constantly trying to possess mages.
Rule by a Tevinter Imperium style government(short of world enlightenment there's no way mages on average would be morally superior to the average mundane human, and mages are much more likely to be morally corrupt due to unearned power) or a system that regulates mages and impinges upon their personal freedom.
Personally I would just try to exterminate mages entirely(assuming its genetic) or try to find some way to destroy magic. From a greater good standpoint, the amount of suffering and misery caused by mages(from slavery of the most personal sort[aka mind control] to war to the Blight itself) is entirely disproportionate to the number of mages.
Commit evil to destroy a greater evil(me)
Commit a lesser evil to restrain evil(templars)
Allow a greater evil to remain to avoid committing evil(pro mage crowd)
#17
Posté 18 septembre 2012 - 01:34
ImperatorMortis
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Mages. Master race, and all that.
#18
Posté 18 septembre 2012 - 01:38
LobselVith8
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The pro-mage and pro-templar groups are ideologically opposed; there isn't right and wrong as much as differing perspectives on the matter. The two will never reach a consensus, and that will never change. In my opinion, I agree with the pro-mage faction. I've gone through Origins with a Libertarian Surana Warden who asked for his people to be given their independence, and an apostate Hawke who sided with the mages.
#20
Posté 18 septembre 2012 - 06:51
Cultist
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The tree of mages' freedom should be refreshed with the blood of templars.
#21
Posté 18 septembre 2012 - 07:04
Shadow Fox
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For once we actually agree I'm shocked.LobselVith8 wrote...
The pro-mage and pro-templar groups are ideologically opposed; there isn't right and wrong as much as differing perspectives on the matter. The two will never reach a consensus, and that will never change. In my opinion, I agree with the pro-mage faction. I've gone through Origins with a Libertarian Surana Warden who asked for his people to be given their independence, and an apostate Hawke who sided with the mages.
#22
Posté 18 septembre 2012 - 07:05
ImperatorMortis
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Cultist wrote...
The tree of mages' freedom should be refreshed with the blood of templars.
Do Mages need to get in a war with the Templars though? As much as I dislike Templars, and consider Mages the ultimate master race. I don't think it should come to that. Though it will.
Things would be so much better if there were less mages that turned to Blood Magic, and Templars weren't so crazy.
I think I support the isolationists a bit. Having the Mages just go, and rule their own country. But since Mages are useful, and the Chantry is greedy, and corrupt, that won't happen.
Man I'm going to find it hard to find a reason for my DA3 Main Character to be an Inquisitor. Unless he was kidnapped, and saw it as a opportunity for a bette life.
Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 18 septembre 2012 - 07:12 .
#23
Posté 18 septembre 2012 - 07:52
Lotion Soronarr
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Vandicus wrote...
Commit evil to destroy a greater evil(me)
Commit a lesser evil to restrain evil(templars)
Allow a greater evil to remain to avoid committing evil(pro mage crowd)
QFT.
There is a right and wrong here. Altough in details, not overall.
Mages simply cannot be let to roam free. Period.
#24
Posté 18 septembre 2012 - 08:31
LobselVith8
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Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
The pro-mage and pro-templar groups are ideologically opposed; there isn't right and wrong as much as differing perspectives on the matter. The two will never reach a consensus, and that will never change. In my opinion, I agree with the pro-mage faction. I've gone through Origins with a Libertarian Surana Warden who asked for his people to be given their independence, and an apostate Hawke who sided with the mages.
For once we actually agree I'm shocked.
It happens.
#25
Posté 18 septembre 2012 - 08:53
Cultist
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There's no other way.to win the freedom for mages. Blood Magic should be available for everyone, and if someone disagrees and will try to impose restrictions - they should pay.ImperatorMortis wrote...
Cultist wrote...
The tree of mages' freedom should be refreshed with the blood of templars.
Do Mages need to get in a war with the Templars though? As much as I dislike Templars, and consider Mages the ultimate master race. I don't think it should come to that. Though it will.
Things would be so much better if there were less mages that turned to Blood Magic, and Templars weren't so crazy.
I think I support the isolationists a bit. Having the Mages just go, and rule their own country. But since Mages are useful, and the Chantry is greedy, and corrupt, that won't happen.
Man I'm going to find it hard to find a reason for my DA3 Main Character to be an Inquisitor. Unless he was kidnapped, and saw it as a opportunity for a bette life.
