189 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Mages are in the right. Nothing justifies the way they are treated.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Mages are in the right. Nothing justifies the way they are treated.

Danger justifies pertty much everything.

Go ahead and try to break into quarantened aqreas to free the "poor opressed people" inside if you are so for "everyone should be free" mentality.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Mages are in the right. Nothing justifies the way they are treated.

Danger justifies pertty much everything.

Go ahead and try to break into quarantened aqreas to free the "poor opressed people" inside if you are so for "everyone should be free" mentality.

I said nothing about allowing them to run around unsupervised.

Your analogy is and always has been nonsense.

Quarantine is not an inherently abusive institution. People in quarantine are not locked in there by religious zealots who think they have divine right over sick people. People in quarantine are afforded privacy and certain comforts. People in quarantine are not dehumanised and abused by society. People in quarantine are watched over by doctors, not soldiers, and they don't have to worry about being arbitrarily murdered.

[ImperatorMortis]

Cultist wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Cultist wrote...

The tree of mages' freedom should be refreshed with the blood of templars.

Do Mages need to get in a war with the Templars though? As much as I dislike Templars, and consider Mages the ultimate master race. I don't think it should come to that. Though it will. 

Things would be so much better if there were less mages that turned to Blood Magic, and Templars weren't so crazy. 

I think I support the isolationists a bit. Having the Mages just go, and rule their own country. But since Mages are useful, and the Chantry is greedy, and corrupt, that won't happen. 

Man I'm going to find it hard to find a reason for my DA3 Main Character to be an Inquisitor. Unless he was kidnapped, and saw it as a opportunity for a bette life.

There's no other way.to win the freedom for mages. Blood Magic should be available for everyone, and if someone disagrees and will try to impose restrictions  - they should pay.

What? Why? Mages don't need Blood Magic to beat Templars. Blood Magic is a crutch, and just leads to bad things. 

Mages are more than powerful enough to destroy Templars without the use of that.

Fire, Lightning, Earth, Spirit, Shapeshifting, Force, Entropy, etc. 

I feel the Mages that turn to Blood Magic are just lazy. Blood magic is unnecessary, easily prone to abuse, and dangerous to boot. 

I don't mind the Mages destroying the Templars/The Church, I just want them to do it without Blood Magic/Demonology. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 18 septembre 2012 - 09:47 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
Your analogy is and always has been nonsense.

Quarantine is not an inherently abusive institution. People in quarantine are not locked in there by religious zealots who think they have divine right over sick people. People in quarantine are afforded privacy and certain comforts. People in quarantine are not dehumanised and abused by society. People in quarantine are watched over by doctors, not soldiers, and they don't have to worry about being arbitrarily murdered.

Quite hte contrary - it has always been spot on.

People in quarantene are not locked up? Yes they are.
People in quarantene have privacy and comfort? Up to a certain degree. Depends where tehy are quarantened. And  so do mages.
People in quarantene are not dehumanized? Neither are mages. Not really. Unless you count fear of htem being dehumanizations. Peoepl have good, rational reasons to fear mages.

People in quarantene don't get killed? Yes they do..if they try to break the quarantene.
And depending on how the quarantene is set up...the zone could be total chaos or anarchy. You might not even see doctors in the zone.

[Cultist]

ImperatorMortis wrote...
What? Why? Mages don't need Blood Magic to beat Templars. Blood Magic is a crutch, and just leads to bad things. 

Mages are more than powerful enough to destroy Templars without the use of that.

Fire, Lightning, Earth, Spirit, Shapeshifting, Force, Entropy, etc. 

I feel the Mages that turn to Blood Magic are just lazy. Blood magic is unnecessary, easily prone to abuse, and dangerous to boot. 

I don't mind the Mages destroying the Templars/The Church, I just want them to do it without Blood Magic/Demonology

Entropy is no better than Blood Magic. But BM is more handy and useful. there should be no restrictions at all. None.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Mages are in the right. Nothing justifies the way they are treated.

Danger justifies pertty much everything.

Go ahead and try to break into quarantened aqreas to free the "poor opressed people" inside if you are so for "everyone should be free" mentality.

I said nothing about allowing them to run around unsupervised.

Your analogy is and always has been nonsense.

Come on ... he is one of the few on BSN whose comments actually make sense.

Those who are too obsessed by absolute freedom (or anarchy), never wanted to listen to reasonable words.

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...
Mages are in the right. Nothing justifies the way they are treated.

A common mindset of the mage 'liberator' is the arrogance that what they say is right and that it's impossible mages might enjoy where they live. The majority of the Fereldan mages seemed pretty content.

Hell, I'd be pretty content to stay comfortable in the tower, learning spells, chilling with friends, getting free meals, free accomodation, free education and great opportunity for work rather then toiling away like the common peasant who make up the majority of the population.

Cultist wrote...
Entropy is no better than Blood Magic. But BM is more handy and useful. there should be no restrictions at all. None.

I take it you think any civilian should be able to carry any weapon they please?

[MissOuJ]

Umm... Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think the quasi-military/religious organisation with tremendous political power which oppresses and takes rights from people is in the wrong, usually. Don't see why the situation would be any different here.

There's a point (a somewhat shaky one, but a point nevertheless) in saying that mages can be dangerous to themselves and the people around them because of the possibility of demonic possession, and I agree some safeguards should be in place (forbidding blood magic or severly restricting its use, for example) but treating people like dirt, oppressing them and abusing them is not making Thedas/Ferelden/Orlais any safer. It might actually make it worse: it's pretty much spelled out most of the Kirkwall blood mages (in III act at least) were desperate apostates who were looking for a way out and in their desperation they seeked out a demon - and promptly went either insane (Huon) or became possessed (Evelina). Desperate people make desperate decisions.

Now if we were talking about Tevinter, then we'd have a completely different discussion in our hands, since there the mages are the ones who are in power.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MissOuJ wrote...

Umm... Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think the quasi-military/religious organisation with tremendous political power which oppresses and takes rights from people is in the wrong, usually. Don't see why the situation would be any different here.

Thing is, any world government of today would act the same if mages were real.
The actions of the Chantry in regards to locking mages up are completely rational.

And it works. The mages are (mostly) safe, the common folk is safe.

At the end of the day SOMEONE is going to get the short end of the stick (and there's always a short end) and frankly I'd rather it be the minority that's the cause of the problem, rather than the innocent majority.

[ImperatorMortis]

Cultist wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...
What? Why? Mages don't need Blood Magic to beat Templars. Blood Magic is a crutch, and just leads to bad things. 

Mages are more than powerful enough to destroy Templars without the use of that.

Fire, Lightning, Earth, Spirit, Shapeshifting, Force, Entropy, etc. 

I feel the Mages that turn to Blood Magic are just lazy. Blood magic is unnecessary, easily prone to abuse, and dangerous to boot. 

I don't mind the Mages destroying the Templars/The Church, I just want them to do it without Blood Magic/Demonology

Entropy is no better than Blood Magic. But BM is more handy and useful. there should be no restrictions at all. None.

Really? Thats a bit reckless don't you think? Blood Magic is the leading cause of mages getting possessed, it literally allows one to control your minds. 

The worst Entropy can do is make you fall asleep, mess with your aim, and give you bad dreams. Oh, and kill you. 

To say there shouldn't be restrictions on Blood Magic just strikes me as short sighted. 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...

Umm... Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think the quasi-military/religious organisation with tremendous political power which oppresses and takes rights from people is in the wrong, usually. Don't see why the situation would be any different here.

Thing is, any world government of today would act the same if mages were real.
The actions of the Chantry in regards to locking mages up are completely rational.

And it works. The mages are (mostly) safe, the common folk is safe.

At the end of the day SOMEONE is going to get the short end of the stick (and there's always a short end) and frankly I'd rather it be the minority that's the cause of the problem, rather than the innocent majority.

 

Because the Church is infallable correct? Because the Government always knows whats best right? 

Just because they're cowards doesn't mean they have the right to enslave those mages. And yes it is slavery. ESPECIALLY when they turn them tranquel. 

Since you brought up real life, I will as well. Back in the day if a slave ran away, part of their foot was cut off. Its worse with mages. Because instead of their foot, its their freewill, and their very being. 

Most templars are cowardly scum. Well intentioned, but cowardly scum nontheless. . 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 18 septembre 2012 - 12:30 .

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...
A common mindset of the mage 'liberator' is the arrogance that what they say is right and that it's impossible mages might enjoy where they live. The majority of the Fereldan mages seemed pretty content.

I didn't see any of them protesting the schism from the Chantry. Did you? Even Wynne's only reason not to do it was because she feared violent retribution, but she's shown in DA:O and Asunder that she was more than willing to fight Templars or anyone else who would hurt mages.

Hell, I'd be pretty content to stay comfortable in the tower, learning spells, chilling with friends, getting free meals, free accomodation, free education and great opportunity for work rather then toiling away like the common peasant who make up the majority of the population.

Jesus ****, this is a dumb statement. There is no "comfort" in the Circle, there is no "chilling". You do not have privacy, you are not safe. You could be tranquilled or slaughtered outright with no warning, based on the arbitrary judgement of people who are bigoted against you. Your final exam is a complete mystery, aside from the fact that a decent portion of the people who take it never return. Any friends you might make are in the same situation.

But that's all fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine, because you have lots of books to read, right?

[ImperatorMortis]

GodWood wrote...

Hell, I'd be pretty content to stay comfortable in the tower, learning spells, chilling with friends, getting free meals, free accomodation, free education

 

You're OK with being watched 24/7?

You're OK with doing the same things day after day for the most of your life?

You're OK with constantly being told what to do from when you're a child to when you're a grizzled old man? 

You're OK with the risk of being murdered at the drop of a hat?

You're OK with being glared at by zealous drug addicts who more often than not tend to hate you?

You're OK with never being allowed to have children?

And if you do have a child you're OK with them taking him or her, and doing whatever they please with them? 

You're OK with being lobotomized whenever they see fit?  

You're OK with being taken away from your parents at a young age?

You're OK with never seeing your parents again under threat of their death? 

So what I gathered from this is you're OK with being a complete, 100%, literal, tool? 

GodWood wrote...
 and great opportunity for work rather then toiling away like the common peasant who make up the majority of the population.

Whats better? Better a common peasant? Or a seemingly pampered slave? 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 18 septembre 2012 - 12:43 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Plaintiff wrote...

GodWood wrote...
A common mindset of the mage 'liberator' is the arrogance that what they say is right and that it's impossible mages might enjoy where they live. The majority of the Fereldan mages seemed pretty content.

I didn't see any of them protesting the schism from the Chantry. Did you? Even Wynne's only reason not to do it was because she feared violent retribution, but she's shown in DA:O and Asunder that she was more than willing to fight Templars or anyone else who would hurt mages.

Hell, I'd be pretty content to stay comfortable in the tower, learning spells, chilling with friends, getting free meals, free accomodation, free education and great opportunity for work rather then toiling away like the common peasant who make up the majority of the population.

Jesus ****, this is a dumb statement. There is no "comfort" in the Circle, there is no "chilling". You do not have privacy, you are not safe. You could be tranquilled or slaughtered outright with no warning, based on the arbitrary judgement of people who are bigoted against you. Your final exam is a complete mystery, aside from the fact that a decent portion of the people who take it never return. Any friends you might make are in the same situation.

But that's all fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine, because you have lots of books to read, right?

You see, you've played DA2 and extrapolated it's Chantry's atmosphere to every one in Thedas. DA2 was designed to have a faulty Chantry; it was the core aspect of the game. Assuming all are like Kirkwall's is a bit silly.

@Imperator: How is being a mage being a slave? You don't do any work for the Templars or the Chantry. I think "captive" would be a better term. "Slave" is completely inaccurate.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 18 septembre 2012 - 12:44 .

[ImperatorMortis]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

GodWood wrote...
A common mindset of the mage 'liberator' is the arrogance that what they say is right and that it's impossible mages might enjoy where they live. The majority of the Fereldan mages seemed pretty content.

I didn't see any of them protesting the schism from the Chantry. Did you? Even Wynne's only reason not to do it was because she feared violent retribution, but she's shown in DA:O and Asunder that she was more than willing to fight Templars or anyone else who would hurt mages.

Hell, I'd be pretty content to stay comfortable in the tower, learning spells, chilling with friends, getting free meals, free accomodation, free education and great opportunity for work rather then toiling away like the common peasant who make up the majority of the population.

Jesus ****, this is a dumb statement. There is no "comfort" in the Circle, there is no "chilling". You do not have privacy, you are not safe. You could be tranquilled or slaughtered outright with no warning, based on the arbitrary judgement of people who are bigoted against you. Your final exam is a complete mystery, aside from the fact that a decent portion of the people who take it never return. Any friends you might make are in the same situation.

But that's all fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine, because you have lots of books to read, right?

You see, you've played DA2 and extrapolated it's Chantry's atmosphere to every one in Thedas. DA2 was designed to have a faulty Chantry; it was the core aspect of the game. Assuming all are like Kirkwall's is a bit silly.

Um.. That atmosphere was pretty much the same in DA:O, with the Kirkwall one being slightly worse. 

[ImperatorMortis]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
You see, you've played DA2 and extrapolated it's Chantry's atmosphere to every one in Thedas. DA2 was designed to have a faulty Chantry; it was the core aspect of the game. Assuming all are like Kirkwall's is a bit silly.

@Imperator: How is being a mage being a slave? You don't do any work for the Templars or the Chantry. I think "captive" would be a better term. "Slave" is completely inaccurate.

Have you played DA:O? 

Mages do work for the Chantry. Tranquils are the only group other than Dwarves who do Enchantments, and you think a tranquil does something because they want to? 

Mages tend to be the ones who make the potions, and guess who gets first crack at them? The Chantry. 

Mages experiment, and make new discoveries. And the Chantry once again, gets first crack at them.

Mages are basically the Chantry's personal group of scientists that they never have to pay. 

You think a mage would be allowed to go their whole lives in the circle doing nothing? Lol no. They're getting free education so they will be more effective at doing the Chantry's work. 

I think one of the main reasons why the Chantry doesn't want to free mages is because of greed. Because lets face it. If they didn't have mages doing **** for them in their circles. They wouldn't be NEARLY as powerful as they are. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 18 septembre 2012 - 12:56 .

[Plaintiff]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

GodWood wrote...
A common mindset of the mage 'liberator' is the arrogance that what they say is right and that it's impossible mages might enjoy where they live. The majority of the Fereldan mages seemed pretty content.

I didn't see any of them protesting the schism from the Chantry. Did you? Even Wynne's only reason not to do it was because she feared violent retribution, but she's shown in DA:O and Asunder that she was more than willing to fight Templars or anyone else who would hurt mages.

Hell, I'd be pretty content to stay comfortable in the tower, learning spells, chilling with friends, getting free meals, free accomodation, free education and great opportunity for work rather then toiling away like the common peasant who make up the majority of the population.

Jesus ****, this is a dumb statement. There is no "comfort" in the Circle, there is no "chilling". You do not have privacy, you are not safe. You could be tranquilled or slaughtered outright with no warning, based on the arbitrary judgement of people who are bigoted against you. Your final exam is a complete mystery, aside from the fact that a decent portion of the people who take it never return. Any friends you might make are in the same situation.

But that's all fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine, because you have lots of books to read, right?

You see, you've played DA2 and extrapolated it's Chantry's atmosphere to every one in Thedas. DA2 was designed to have a faulty Chantry; it was the core aspect of the game. Assuming all are like Kirkwall's is a bit silly.

I did nothing of the kind. The things I described are part of the system, they are not violations of the rules, they are part of them.

It is very clearly established in Origins that mages who are judged to be "too weak" to even attempt the Harrowing are tranquiled on the spot. And it's also established in Origins that the Harrowing results in the death of the participant a significant percentage of the time.

But since you brought up Kirkwall, that it occured at all should be more than enough to condemn the entire system. The fact that there were no measures in place to keep Meredith under control when she overstepped her bounds shows that the Chantry cares nothing at all for the wellbeing of mages, the ordinary citizens of Kirkwall, or anything at all except advancing and maintaining its own power. And if you needed any more evidence (you shouldn't), the minute that the Divine softened on the mage issue even a little, the military branches the Chantry had cultivated from a stock of crazed zealots abandoned her completely.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 18 septembre 2012 - 01:01 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Yes it is established in Origins that the Harrowing exists. It is not established in Origins that the Chantry imposes the Harrowing for anything other than the initial test, however.

And your second point i agree with, but i honestly find that to be a fault in DA2's writing. We never even find out what the hell is going on behind the scenes. We never find out the Grand Cleric's justifications for her absurd neutrality. If more details were given regarding Chantry's inactivity, i'd be more inclined to agree with you. But all we have is the surface, and beyond that we're just assuming.

It essentially plays out like this:

Meredith does something idiotic, The Grand Cleric gives an abstract philisophical statement, repeat a few dozen times, Anders blows up the Chantry. That's all we have to go on, and i find such little exposition leads to lots of conjecture.

[EricHVela]

I agree with some of the responses (particularly Gibb_Shepard).

I need to know more about what happened beyond what Hawke experienced.

Yet, I cannot help but think that they intended the question of "who was right" to be ambiguous and left for the individual to decide if they had enough info to make such a decision.

At this time based on what I can guess (keyword), I would favor the mages.

Widespread Circle revolutions has led me to think that Kirkwall abuses are actually much more common. Kirkwall's excuse was that a lunatic led the Templars causing the abuses, but lunatic Templars cannot explain the number of Circles that are rebelling.

In DA:O, one is able to find a middle ground for the Circle situation even though the it was a situation within the Circle that started the whole mess. In contrast, that would have made Kirkwall's situation to be an outlier from my view if the second Dragon Age had not mentioned the rampant rebellion. Meredith's actions far exceeded anything from the Templars in DA:O. Yet now, it seems that the Ferelden Circle situation is the exception instead.

[GodWood]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
I didn't see any of them protesting the schism from the Chantry. Did you? Even Wynne's only reason not to do it was because she feared violent retribution, but she's shown in DA:O and Asunder that she was more than willing to fight Templars or anyone else who would hurt mages.[/quote]I've never read Asunder nor do I care to.

Wynne in DA:O seemed to support the Circle and most there seemed pretty content. It wasn't perfect sure, but these imperfections should be remedied through peaceful and diplomatic means not the full scale massacre and war like many 'liberators' seek.
[quote][quote]Hell, I'd be pretty content to stay comfortable in the tower, learning spells, chilling with friends, getting free meals, free accomodation, free education and great opportunity for work rather then toiling away like the common peasant who make up the majority of the population.[/quote]Jesus ****, this is a dumb statement. There is no "comfort" in the Circle, there is no "chilling". You do not have privacy, you are not safe. You could be tranquilled or slaughtered outright with no warning, based on the arbitrary judgement of people who are bigoted against you. Your final exam is a complete mystery, aside from the fact that a decent portion of the people who take it never return. Any friends you might make are in the same situation.

But that's all fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine, because you have lots of books to read, right?[/quote]Ignoring the intellectual dishonesty of the first paragraph, yes. Comfort, security, food, education, accomodation, companionship and protection are certainly all preferable to the quick, brutish and short life of a peasant. A life that has been free of poverty blinds many to this fact.

[quote]ImperatorMortis wrote...
You're OK with being watched 24/7?[/quote]Not that this happens to the extent you're implying but given the alternative I could tolerate it.
[quote]You're OK with doing the same things day after day for the most of your life?[/quote]Most people do. Boring monotony is a simple fact of life. At least in the circle I could practice magic and discuss intellectual topics with others.
[quote]You're OK with constantly being told what to do from when you're a child to when you're a grizzled old man?[/quote]This happens to everyone circle or no.
[quote]You're OK with the risk of being murdered at the drop of a hat?[/quote]We're all at this risk. In the case of the Circle this is not 'legal' and ideally should not happen.
[quote]You're OK with being glared at by zealous drug addicts who more often than not tend to hate you?[/quote]The game has shown more nice templars then mean ones so I can't help but see this as intellectually dishonest. If there is a problem between templar and mage relations this is something that should be addressed again through dilomatic and peaceful means, not full scale war and massacre.
[quote]You're OK with never being allowed to have children?[/quote]Yes.
[quote]And if you do have a child you're OK with them taking him or her, and doing whatever they please with them?[/quote]I am okay with having them taken away and raised by the Chantry (as is what happens)
[quote]You're OK with being lobotomized whenever they see fit? [/quote]Lobotomization is only a consequence of weakness or breaking a law (or some other extreme circumstance). To imply this happens willy nilly is basically the same as criticising the concept of police officers because they can lock you up "whenever they see fit".
[quote]You're OK with being taken away from your parents at a young age?[/quote]I'd get over it. And as shown by one of the DLCs they're allowed visits.

[quote]You're OK with never seeing your parents again under threat of their death? [/quote]See above

[quote]Whats better? Better a common peasant? Or a seemingly pampered slave? [/quote]And this is the problem of the mage/templar debate. Those who wish to 'liberate' refuse to see the issue objectively and instead exacerbate the conditions of mage life. So long as this continues discussion with such folk is pointless.

Modifié par GodWood, 18 septembre 2012 - 04:17 .

[MissOuJ]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...

Umm... Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think the quasi-military/religious organisation with tremendous political power which oppresses and takes rights from people is in the wrong, usually. Don't see why the situation would be any different here.

Thing is, any world government of today would act the same if mages were real.
The actions of the Chantry in regards to locking mages up are completely rational.

And it works. The mages are (mostly) safe, the common folk is safe.

At the end of the day SOMEONE is going to get the short end of the stick (and there's always a short end) and frankly I'd rather it be the minority that's the cause of the problem, rather than the innocent majority.

Even if "any world government" (I assume that would be those governments who have never heard of the concept Responsibility to Protect but whatever) would do a similar thing it would not be morally right. You have to be a hardcore utilitarian, ascribe to pretty authoritarian values and be against personal liberty to actually consider that in any way justifiable.

Also, the actions of the Chantry are anything but rational. They're based on fear, misconseptions and a concept of "safety" which is frankly appallingly naive. The only way the Chantry's actions could be seen as rational is their financial exploitation of mages and the Tranquil (since the profits of the wares crafted by the Formari go to the Chantry), in which case, yes; the Chantry's motivations are very rational. Cold as ****, but rational.

And finally, the mages are not safe. Go to the Gallows in DAII and talk to the NPC mages there. You'll hear lovely stuff like this one couple who aare having a chat: the guy keeps asking his girlfriend is she recognizes him but the woman has been made Tranquil and is now "serving" one fo the Templars. You'll hear Alain telling you the Templars are beating mages. Anders also has some lovely anecdotes, like how women who give birth in the Circle never see their babies again, since they're given to the Chantry.

What we see in the DA universe regarding mages (and city elves, and lower caste dwarfs) is the textbook example of institutional oppression. The system is made to keep them in line, to keep them in their place: out of power (which makes sence with mages regarding the history of the Imperium but that was several thousand years ago) out of the way, out of options.

And that's also why they resort to blood magic and become possessed: fear and desperation. If they actually had something to lose, maybe they wouldn't turn to the worst possible options to escape the place where they are supposedly safe.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 18 septembre 2012 - 05:17 .

[ImperatorMortis]

[quote]GodWood wrote...

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
I didn't see any of them protesting the schism from the Chantry. Did you? Even Wynne's only reason not to do it was because she feared violent retribution, but she's shown in DA:O and Asunder that she was more than willing to fight Templars or anyone else who would hurt mages.[/quote]I've never read Asunder nor do I care to.

Wynne in DA:O seemed to support the Circle and most there seemed pretty content. It wasn't perfect sure, but these imperfections should be remedied through peaceful and diplomatic means not the full scale massacre and war like many 'liberators' seek.
[quote][quote]Hell, I'd be pretty content to stay comfortable in the tower, learning spells, chilling with friends, getting free meals, free accomodation, free education and great opportunity for work rather then toiling away like the common peasant who make up the majority of the population.[/quote]Jesus ****, this is a dumb statement. There is no "comfort" in the Circle, there is no "chilling". You do not have privacy, you are not safe. You could be tranquilled or slaughtered outright with no warning, based on the arbitrary judgement of people who are bigoted against you. Your final exam is a complete mystery, aside from the fact that a decent portion of the people who take it never return. Any friends you might make are in the same situation.

But that's all fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine, because you have lots of books to read, right?[/quote]Ignoring the intellectual dishonesty of the first paragraph, yes. Comfort, security, food, education, accomodation, companionship and protection are certainly all preferable to the quick, brutish and short life of a peasant. A life that has been free of poverty blinds many to this fact.

[quote]ImperatorMortis wrote...
You're OK with being watched 24/7?[/quote]Not that this happens to the extent you're implying but given the alternative I could tolerate it.
[quote]You're OK with doing the same things day after day for the most of your life?[/quote]Most people do. Boring monotony is a simple fact of life. At least in the circle I could practice magic and discuss intellectual topics with others.
[quote]You're OK with constantly being told what to do from when you're a child to when you're a grizzled old man?[/quote]This happens to everyone circle or no.
[quote]You're OK with the risk of being murdered at the drop of a hat?[/quote]We're all at this risk. In the case of the Circle this is not 'legal' and ideally should not happen.
[quote]You're OK with being glared at by zealous drug addicts who more often than not tend to hate you?[/quote]The game has shown more nice templars then mean ones so I can't help but see this as intellectually dishonest. If there is a problem between templar and mage relations this is something that should be addressed again through dilomatic and peaceful means, not full scale war and massacre.
[quote]You're OK with never being allowed to have children?[/quote]Yes.
[quote]And if you do have a child you're OK with them taking him or her, and doing whatever they please with them?[/quote]I am okay with having them taken away and raised by the Chantry (as is what happens)
[quote]You're OK with being lobotomized whenever they see fit? [/quote]Lobotomization is only a consequence of weakness or breaking a law (or some other extreme circumstance). To imply this happens willy nilly is basically the same as criticising the concept of police officers because they can lock you up "whenever they see fit".
[quote]You're OK with being taken away from your parents at a young age?[/quote]I'd get over it. And as shown by one of the DLCs they're allowed visits.

[quote]You're OK with never seeing your parents again under threat of their death? [/quote]See above

[quote]Whats better? Better a common peasant? Or a seemingly pampered slave? [/quote]And this is the problem of the mage/templar debate. Those who wish to 'liberate' refuse to see the issue objectively and instead exacerbate the conditions of mage life. So long as this continues discussion with such folk is pointless.[/quote]

Wow so you're seriously OK with all this happening to you, and your freedom taken away from you like this? Really? Haha. Yeah, you're right. This is a pointless discussion. 

Good day.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Mages are in the right. Nothing justifies the way they are treated.

Danger justifies pertty much everything.

So the mages who see the Chantry controlled Circles as dangerous are justified in fighting for their autonomy?

[Uglybandit]

When I first played thru DA2 I felt the mages were in the right, even if I felt Anders was "out his damn mind".

After finding out Orsino's connection to Mother Hawkes death, I have sided with the Templars every time since.

[LobselVith8]

GodWood wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I didn't see any of them protesting the schism from the Chantry. Did you? Even Wynne's only reason not to do it was because she feared violent retribution, but she's shown in DA:O and Asunder that she was more than willing to fight Templars or anyone else who would hurt mages.

I've never read Asunder nor do I care to.

Wynne in DA:O seemed to support the Circle and most there seemed pretty content. It wasn't perfect sure, but these imperfections should be remedied through peaceful and diplomatic means not the full scale massacre and war like many 'liberators' seek.

It's more complicated than that. Wynne tries to convince the mage protagonist to take a leadership role in the Circle of Ferelden to change it, because it's her dream. She never contests the mage protagonist saying its an "oppressive place," and argues the protagonist can change that about the Circle with all he's experienced as a Grey Warden. Her argument in the City of Amaranthine against breaking free from the Chantry is that the Chantry would rather kill all mages than see them free.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 18 septembre 2012 - 05:42 .