189 réponses à ce sujet

[MichaelStuart]

I think Mages should be treated like anyone else.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MichaelStuart wrote...

I think Mages should be treated like anyone else.

But they AREN'T like everyone else...that's the whole point.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Thing is, any world government of today would act the same if mages were real.
The actions of the Chantry in regards to locking mages up are completely rational.

And it works. The mages are (mostly) safe, the common folk is safe.

At the end of the day SOMEONE is going to get the short end of the stick (and there's always a short end) and frankly I'd rather it be the minority that's the cause of the problem, rather than the innocent majority.

 

Because the Church is infallable correct? Because the Government always knows whats best right?

No, because it is the logical course of action.

Just because they're cowards doesn't mean they have the right to enslave those mages. And yes it is slavery. ESPECIALLY when they turn them tranquel.

Cowards?
How is it cowardly? What exactly is cowardly about that?

Since you brought up real life, I will as well. Back in the day if a slave ran away, part of their foot was cut off. Its worse with mages. Because instead of their foot, its their freewill, and their very being.

The tranquil don't use their free will. At least they didn't in DAO.

And salves ren't a danger to others b.t.w.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MissOuJ wrote...
Even if "any world government" (I assume that would be those governments who have never heard of the concept Responsibility to Protect but whatever) would do a similar thing it would not be morally right. You have to be a hardcore utilitarian, ascribe to pretty authoritarian values and be against personal liberty to actually consider that in any way justifiable.

Meh. And letting mages roam free is morally right?
What about the incidents and deaths that will happen as a result? Those are morally right?

Taking the "liberty" stance is a cowards way out - it's a refusal to deal with the problem and getting ones hand dirty. When ones own peace of mind is more important than the lives and safety of thousands.

And yes, the governments ARE protecting the larger populace by separating it from a dangerous element of populace. This has been in effect since the dawn of mankind.
From prisons to banishments ot quarantenes.

Also, the actions of the Chantry are anything but rational. They're based on fear, misconseptions and a concept of "safety" which is frankly appallingly naive.

Misconceptions? False fear? Mages are a danger to everyone.
Keeping them locked up does keep the country safer.
You'd rather have a dozen Connors running around?

And finally, the mages are not safe. Go to the Gallows in DAII and talk to the NPC mages there. You'll hear lovely stuff like this one couple who aare having a chat: the guy keeps asking his girlfriend is she recognizes him but the woman has been made Tranquil and is now "serving" one fo the Templars. You'll hear Alain telling you the Templars are beating mages. Anders also has some lovely anecdotes, like how women who give birth in the Circle never see their babies again, since they're given to the Chantry.

They are safer than most - especially given their conditions.

And that's also why they resort to blood magic and become possessed: fear and desperation. If they actually had something to lose, maybe they wouldn't turn to the worst possible options to escape the place where they are supposedly safe.

Ahh..again this fantasy that every time a mage goes berserk it's because of the Cahntry, and without it everything would be peachy-fine.
I never know people have only one desire/motivation that can be exploited by demons <_<

[LobselVith8]

Uglybandit wrote...

When I first played thru DA2 I felt the mages were in the right, even if I felt Anders was "out his damn mind".

After finding out Orsino's connection to Mother Hawkes death, I have sided with the Templars every time since.

So one single man should condemn hundreds of men, women, and children to death, even though they are innocent of that particular man's actions?

[Xilizhra]

Ahh..again this fantasy that every time a mage goes berserk it's because of the Cahntry, and without it everything would be peachy-fine.

If nothing else, the Chantry is always a factor in their thoughts, for every mage in an Andrastian nation.

[Face of Evil]

Even if they aren't in danger of becoming insane horrors, mages are still people. People are callous, ignorant, apathetic, lazy, greedy, irrational and power-hungry. To say that they're incapable of evil acts without it somehow being the Chantry's fault is in itself positive discrimination and incredibly dangerous. The templars aren't any better, but they're not any worse either. They're people (callous, ignorant, apathetic, lazy, greedy, irrational and power-hungry) tasked with policing a system that is inherently broken.

Hell, Thrask fell into that trap, as he was unable to see what a vengeful, manipulative **** Grace was until it was too late.

This is ultimately Anders' problem; by Act 3, he can't see his fellow mages as anything but whipped dogs. Maybe he wouldn't have been so eager to burn down the whole puppy mill if his view hadn't been narrow. I suspect that's why he dislikes Merrill so much, because she chose to practice blood magic simply to achieve her own ends and not because the Chantry drove her to it.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 18 septembre 2012 - 10:52 .

[thibaut72]

No one (and it's more the case if you have the authority/power) can kill a race, a nation or all mages/templars because of only a few minority do. Erase the circle just because some fools is just a murder...
Personnaly, i always kill Anders, and side with the mage

[General User]

The mages are right in that they deserve humane treatment and to be treated with dignity and respect.

The Templars are right in that the public needs and deserves to be protected from dangerous magic.

The mages are wrong when they believe that they are capable, let alone should be allowed to, govern themselves.

The Templars are wrong in that they have been allowed to operate without proper oversight for far to long and, in the Circle of Kirkwall at least, abuse and corruption were rife.

[Karlone123]

I say yes to both of them, Mages deserve freedom and Templars need to keep guard of Mages. But both are too stubborn enough to see they own faults. Mages are victimised for their "curse" of weilding magic and suffer abuse, Templars are too vigilant bordering tyrannical and make Mages out potential Blood Mages.

Something like the Templars are needed to fight against Mages if one is ever possessed or gone rogue, but Templars forever oppressing Mages will always cause them to rebel and anulments will always be called leading to war. Templars need to back off a bit and give Mages room to breathe because Mages resulting to dark magic is usually a result of Templar vigilance. Always been watched and being told you are an abomination to humanity will cause retribution.

Modifié par Karlone123, 18 septembre 2012 - 11:13 .

[ImperatorMortis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I think Mages should be treated like anyone else.

But they AREN'T like everyone else...that's the whole point.

Yeah, they're better.

But seriously the way the Chantry is doing it is horrible. Any group who was treated like the Mages, they would eventually revolt. And would have every right to.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Cowards? 
How is it cowardly? What exactly is cowardly about that?

 

How is that not cowardly? 

Templar: "Whoops! We got a free thinker here, better make him/her tranquil."

Templar: "Whoops! This mage is getting a bit too curious, better make him/her tranquil."

Templar: Whoops! That mage just looked at me funny, better make him/her tranquil."

Templars/The Chantry are cowards. They treat Mages like this because they're afraid of them to the point of paranoia.


Fear is just one of the reasons they keep Mages oppressed. As I said before the other is greed, and I'm sure there's some self righteousness thrown in there.

Not to mentions these damn people brainwash them to the point where Mages actually follow a religion, thats bloody based around oppressing them. I have no idea why more Mages aren't atheist. Or atleast opposed to worshopping the Maker/honoring Andraste.

But to be fair to them the Chantry would probably brand them as Heretics for not believing, and start some violent conflict. Like they did with the Dalish.

Morrigan said it best.

Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker? 

Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

Considering how intellectual most mages seem to be, you'd think this would be how most of them would see things.

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 19 septembre 2012 - 04:03 .

[ObserverStatus]

Have you ever noticed how you have to tell mage apologists the same thing over and over? No matter how many times you explain why the threat of blood magic is too great for them to be free, the people who stick up for them just won't learn. They’re like children who put their hands over their ears because they don’t want to listen to Mother. Most normal people just give up and let them enjoy their fantasies. Even when you force someone to look at evidence and admit that without the Templar, blood mages would enslave us all, leave him alone for a few days and he’ll go right back to spouting the same hokum.

[ImperatorMortis]

bobobo878 wrote...

Have you ever noticed how you have to tell mage apologists the same thing over and over? No matter how many times you explain why the threat of blood magic is too great for them to be free, the people who stick up for them just won't learn. They’re like children who put their hands over their ears because they don’t want to listen to Mother. Most normal people just give up and let them enjoy their fantasies. Even when you force someone to look at evidence and admit that without the Templar, blood mages would enslave us all, leave him alone for a few days and he’ll go right back to spouting the same hokum.

Are you refering to me? Because I'm a "mage apologist", and I generally hate/dislike Blood Magic.

If Mages do get independence I would still want it to be outlawed/controlled. Also you do know Templars use Blood Magic right? And Blood Magic does have some good uses. For example sealing something powerful, and awful(Legacy DLC), making Grey Wardens, etc.

Lastly, generalizations like this are pointless. All they do is make you look like an idiot.

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 19 septembre 2012 - 04:52 .

[LobselVith8]

bobobo878 wrote...

Have you ever noticed how you have to tell mage apologists the same thing over and over? No matter how many times you explain why the threat of blood magic is too great for them to be free, the people who stick up for them just won't learn. They’re like children who put their hands over their ears because they don’t want to listen to Mother. Most normal people just give up and let them enjoy their fantasies. Even when you force someone to look at evidence and admit that without the Templar, blood mages would enslave us all, leave him alone for a few days and he’ll go right back to spouting the same hokum.

Mages aren't controlled among the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the witches and seers are free in the Kingdom of Rivain, yet mages aren't enslaving the people in those societies. I don't think your assessment is correct. In fact, some Grey Warden mages use blood magic because it gives them an edge against the darkspawn, so not every blood mage is the same.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]ImperatorMortis wrote...
Yeah, they're better.

But seriously the way the Chantry is doing it is horrible. Any group who was treated like the Mages, they would eventually revolt. And would have every right to.[/quote]

Not necessarily.
And you seem to think that the way the Chantry treats mages has come out of sheer malice ,and not practicality.
Maybe earlier mages were able to keep children, but it only made things worse?[/quote]




[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Cowards? 
How is it cowardly? What exactly is cowardly about that?[/quote] 

How is that not cowardly? 

Templar: "Whoops! We got a free thinker here, better make him/her tranquil."
Templar: "Whoops! This mage is getting a bit too curious, better make him/her tranquil."
Templar: Whoops! That mage just looked at me funny, better make him/her tranquil."

Templars/The Chantry are cowards. They treat Mages like this because they're afraid of them to the point of paranoia.[/quote]

Bollocks. You trying to reduce this to absurdity does you no credit.


[quote]
Not to mentions these damn people brainwash them to the point where Mages actually follow a religion, thats bloody based around oppressing them. I have no idea why more Mages aren't atheist. Or atleast opposed to worshopping the Maker/honoring Andraste.[/quote]

Because to you religion = brainwashing? Puh-lease....
Wether you like it or not, people find comfort in religion. They find purpose, guidance.
Why wouldn't a mage be religious?
Mages being locked up is a rational action, not a religious one.


[quote]
Morrigan said it best.

Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker? 

Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

Considering how intellectual most mages seem to be, you'd think this would be how most of them would see things.
[/quote]

Ah..the classical fallacy of connecting being intelligent/intellectual/smart with being an atheist.
An elitist, argonat and utterly wrong point of view with no basis in reality.
Plenty of famous scientists and great thinkers have been religious.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:13 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Mages aren't controlled among the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the witches and seers are free in the Kingdom of Rivain, yet mages aren't enslaving the people in those societies. I don't think your assessment is correct. In fact, some Grey Warden mages use blood magic because it gives them an edge against the darkspawn, so not every blood mage is the same.

FALSE.

We saw two dalish tribes so far - one would have been destroyed by it's crazed Mage Keeper were it not for the Warden, the other destroyed by an abomination were it not for Hawke.
Furthermore, we have accounts of dalish clans dissapearing...guess why? What is powerfull  enough to wipe out an entire dalish clan? That's right - abominations. Even the Dalish codex mentions that the clans have to hunt down their keeper-turn-abomination every now and then (assuming the abomination doesnt' destroy them).
And this is clans that have ONLY 1 or two mages.
Apply that to the big cities of TheDas where you'd have many more mages running around and it becomes obvious just how bad of an idea that is.

Given the number of Dalish and how fragmented their culture is, the loss of a single clans is a great blow to a Dalish culture.

The Avvar and Chasind are also roaving tribes that are in the same boat as the Dalish.
The Kingdom of Rivvain does a have a Circle, but there are a few witches living outside it.

So your idea that mages roaming free is a good solution doesn't have solid grounds to stand on.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:07 .

[ImperatorMortis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Not necessarily.
And you seem to think that the way the Chantry treats mages has come out of sheer malice ,and not practicality.
Maybe earlier mages were able to keep children, but it only made things worse?

Why would it make things get worse? There are other places where mages are free. Like Rivain. Mages are doing their thing over there, and nothing bad has happened. 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Bollocks. You trying to reduce this to absurdity does you no credit.

Is it really so absurd? I admit I am exagerrating, but I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't too far off with that. 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
 Because to you religion = brainwashing? Puh-lease.... 
Wether you like it or not, people find comfort in religion. They find purpose, guidance.
Why wouldn't a mage be religious? 

Never outright said that. But seriously, people following a religion thats almost dedicated to oppressing them? Thats just weird. 

Its like a Jew joining the ****'s. I'm not saying that the Chantry is a bunch of ****'s. Just trying to point out the absurdity of it. 

Edit: **** is censored? Lol this forum. 

"Even though you, and Andraste hate me Maker, and your followers are keeping me locked up for the rest of my life. I'm going to pray, and worship you anyway because I'm crazy like that." 

What the ****? 

Also for the record. I have nothing against religion. The Old Tevinter Gods, and the Elven Gods(Who may be the same) sound awesome.

I'm just pointing out how weird it is for a mage to want to worship a God who hates/dislikes them/keeps them down. Makes no sense. 

It would be badass if Mages started to worship the Old Gods(who are probably only the real Gods in Dragon Age anyway). 
 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages being locked up is a rational action, not a religious one.

I would argue that its a little bit of both. 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Ah..the classical fallacy of connecting being intelligent/intellectual/smart with being an atheist.
An elitist, argonat and utterly wrong point of view with no basis in reality.
Plenty of famous scientists and great thinkers have been religious.

Hmm.. Maybe I shouldn't have said it like that. I'm not saying Athiest = Smart, or Religious = Dumb. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:57 .

[GodWood]

ImperatorMortis wrote...
Wow so you're seriously OK with all this happening to you, and your freedom taken away from you like this?

Yes, because it's not nearly as bad as you'd like it to be, it is vastly superior to the conditions of 95%+ of the population and it's ultimately the most beneficial for everyone.

The circle system is not perfect and could do with some basic reformations but aside from that it's mostly good and those in Circles which follow the rules are mostly content with their existence.

Modifié par GodWood, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:03 .

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages aren't controlled among the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the witches and seers are free in the Kingdom of Rivain, yet mages aren't enslaving the people in those societies. I don't think your assessment is correct. In fact, some Grey Warden mages use blood magic because it gives them an edge against the darkspawn, so not every blood mage is the same.

FALSE.

The developers said mages aren't controlled in these societies, and a codex on the Bioware blog supports this.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

We saw two dalish tribes so far - one would have been destroyed by it's crazed Mage Keeper were it not for the Warden, the other destroyed by an abomination were it not for Hawke.
Furthermore, we have accounts of dalish clans dissapearing...guess why? What is powerfull  enough to wipe out an entire dalish clan? That's right - abominations. Even the Dalish codex mentions that the clans have to hunt down their keeper-turn-abomination every now and then (assuming the abomination doesnt' destroy them). 
And this is clans that have ONLY 1 or two mages. 

The Dalish aren't limited to two mages per clan, as we see with Aneirin the Healer being a member of Zathrian's clan, and the elven mage who joined the Dalish in Witch Hunt.

Furthermore, Merrill mentions that the clan hunts down abominations. That doesn't change the fact that free mages aren't automatically emulating the Imperium.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Apply that to the big cities of TheDas where you'd have many more mages running around and it becomes obvious just how bad of an idea that is.

Given the number of Dalish and how fragmented their culture is, the loss of a single clans is a great blow to a Dalish culture.

The Avvar and Chasind are also roaving tribes that are in the same boat as the Dalish.
The Kingdom of Rivvain does a have a Circle, but there are a few witches living outside it.

So your idea that mages roaming free is a good solution doesn't have solid grounds to stand on.

You don't seem to know what I was addressing, which was that free mages aren't automatically emulating the Imperium. To your point, opinions will always vary, but mages being free of the Chantry has support in the game among individuals: the Hero of Ferelden (Magi boon), the ruler of Ferelden, and First Enchanter Irving can voice their support for this. The ruler can declare that mages have earned the right to govern themselves.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 septembre 2012 - 03:10 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

ImperatorMortis wrote...
Why would it make things get worse? There are other places where mages are free. Like Rivain. Mages are doing their thing over there, and nothing bad has happened.

Why wouldn't it?
Having a child near you is a great leverage for demons.

And no, mages aren't free in Rivain. There's a Cirlce there too.

Never outright said that. But seriously, people following a religion thats almost dedicated to oppressing them? Thats just weird. 

Its like a Jew joining the ****'s. I'm not saying that the Chantry is a bunch of ****'s. Just trying to point out the absurdity of it.

There is nothing absurd about it, because the Chantry isn't dedicated to opressing mages.
Mages being locked up is a product of practicality.
The people aren't too fond of mages because mages are trouble. And people are people.


Here's a interesting little historical read:

Fifty years
later, when the Second Crusade was gearing up, St. Bernard frequently
preached that the Jews were not to be persecuted:

Ask
anyone who knows the Sacred Scriptures what he finds foretold of the
Jews in the Psalm. "Not for their destruction do I pray," it says. The
Jews are for us the living words of Scripture, for they remind us
always of what our Lord suffered.... Under Christian princes they
endure a hard captivity, but "they only wait for the time of their
deliverance."

Nevertheless, a
fellow Cistercian monk named Radulf stirred up people against the
Rhineland Jews, despite numerous letters from Bernard demanding that he
stop. At last Bernard was forced to travel to Germany himself, where he
caught up with Radulf, sent him back to his convent, and ended the
massacres.

In any big organization there is disagreement. Just because soem from the Chantry villanize mages that doesn't make it the chantry offical position.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

We saw two dalish tribes so far - one would have been destroyed by it's crazed Mage Keeper were it not for the Warden, the other destroyed by an abomination were it not for Hawke.
Furthermore, we have accounts of dalish clans dissapearing...guess why? What is powerfull  enough to wipe out an entire dalish clan? That's right - abominations. Even the Dalish codex mentions that the clans have to hunt down their keeper-turn-abomination every now and then (assuming the abomination doesnt' destroy them). 
And this is clans that have ONLY 1 or two mages. 

The Dalish aren't limited to two mages per clan, as we see with Aneirin the Healer being a member of Zathrian's clan, and the elven mage who joined the Dalish in Witch Hunt.

Furthermore, Merrill mentions that the clan hunts down abominations. That doesn't change the fact that free mages aren't automatically emulating the Imperium.

I never said they were emulating the Imperium (if they did they have circles too).
I said abominations nad mages dont' magicly stop being a big and deadly problem in other societies. The Dalish do have a problem with them, but do not talk much about it.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Apply that to the big cities of TheDas where you'd have many more mages running around and it becomes obvious just how bad of an idea that is.
Given the number of Dalish and how fragmented their culture is, the loss of a single clans is a great blow to a Dalish culture.
The Avvar and Chasind are also roaving tribes that are in the same boat as the Dalish.
The Kingdom of Rivvain does a have a Circle, but there are a few witches living outside it.
So your idea that mages roaming free is a good solution doesn't have solid grounds to stand on.

You don't seem to know what I was addressing, which was that free mages aren't automatically emulating the Imperium.

Apples and oranges. I don't care if they are emulating it or not - what I do care if mages being a danger to everyone in evry society.

To your point, opinions will always vary, but mages being free of the Chantry has support in the game among individuals: the Hero of Ferelden (Magi boon), the ruler of Ferelden, and First Enchanter Irving can voice their support for this. The ruler can declare that mages have earned the right to govern themselves.

Which is relevant exactly how?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 19 septembre 2012 - 08:46 .

[thibaut72]

Maybe i m wrong, but where is it written (in the Chantry Dogma) that mages need to be enclose in the circle.
Anf if the circle are necessary to teach the danger of the fade (and the thick link with the mages), where is it written that mages always need to stay in the circle ?
The templar and the mage aren't evil but deceiption, jalousy, eager of power and so on, are the source of the evil. In the case of Kirkwall, Meredith didn't try to find a solution, just keep more rules and enslave more the mage. Only a minority of mages are evil and want more power...

Also, it's not written in canticles that blood magic is evil, just that thevinter mages used "The secrets of darkest magic" (Chant of Light: Canticle of Threnodies). Only interpretation can say that blood magic is the darkest magic (even if thevinter used blood magic...).

[LinksOcarina]

The answer to this question is simple.

Depends on who you ask. Perception of who is right or wrong in this case is what matters most, because it is a subjective stance to support one or the other, be it grounds of morality, law, equality, or creating chaos.

[Little Princess Peach]

Mages should be able to have the education they need but still remain with there families kinda like what we do in real our kids go to school but come home afterwards, they can still keep there templar pets in line.

on that note I think both fractions have good points and bad points they just need to chill out and stop fighting each other because it will get them noware fast

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I never said they were emulating the Imperium (if they did they have circles too).
I said abominations nad mages dont' magicly stop being a big and deadly problem in other societies. The Dalish do have a problem with them, but do not talk much about it.

I never claimed abominations didn't transpire outside of Andrastian society. However, that doesn't mean the Chantry or the templars have the right solution.