189 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

It also doesn't mean they have the wrong solution either.

Becasue if an entire dalish clan is lost to a mage, than that isn't a solution at all.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It also doesn't mean they have the wrong solution either.

Becasue if an entire dalish clan is lost to a mage, than that isn't a solution at all.

And that mage's name is Hawke.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Mages can't be trusted. As crappy as it is for them in those mage towers, it's a practical solution as long as the Templars keep order. The Templars have my vote. Damn mages always turn to blood magic eventually.

[ObserverStatus]

ImperatorMortis wrote...
Are you refering to me? Because I'm a "mage apologist", and I generally hate/dislike Blood Magic.
If Mages do get independence I would still want it to be outlawed/controlled. Also you do know Templars use Blood Magic right? And Blood Magic does have some good uses. For example sealing something powerful, and awful(Legacy DLC), making Grey Wardens, etc.
Lastly, generalizations like this are pointless. All they do is make you look like an idiot.

First of all, if you really are against blood magic, you will support the templar. You may say that you support mage independence but oppose blood magic, but if the mages are independent any regulation of blood magic will be impossible to control.  As for blood magic having good uses, people often make the mistake of labeling any magic involving blood to be blood magic.  The only kind of blood magic opposed by the maker is the use of blood as a substitute for lyrium, and the spells that can only be powered by this method.  The Warden initiation ritual is neither of these.  Thirdly, non-mages do not use blood magic, or any type of magic, period.  The templar can be trained to resist magic, but if you truly believe that they can use blood magic, I would highly recommend that you re-read the codex.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Mages aren't controlled among the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the witches and seers are free in the Kingdom of Rivain, yet mages aren't enslaving the people in those societies. I don't think your assessment is correct. In fact, some Grey Warden mages use blood magic because it gives them an edge against the darkspawn, so not every blood mage is the same.

I am not saying that any mage who uses blood magic will automatically try to take over the world, but I am saying that if blood magic were allowed it would give unprecedented power to those who would.  As for the societies that are supposedly better off without strict control of mages, we haven't seen much of the Avvar, Chasind, or kingdom of Rivain, but we have seen more than enough of the Dalish to confirm what I have said.  The keeper of the Dalish from Origins grossly misused magic when he turned his enemies into monsters, and inadvertently unleashed them on his own people. while in DA II, the Dalish courted disaster by refusing to crack the whip when Merrill's mad experiments got out of hand, instead they just dumped her on Hawke, and let him suffer for their stupid refusal to rein in or dispose of dangerous mages. 

[Blitzkrieg0811]

Both sides have their problems. The mages are sometimes careless renegades, and the Templars are sometimes ignorant fanatics.

It's like the civil war in Skyrim: the Stormcloaks rightfully demand independence, but at the same time, most of the Nords are racist cavemen.

[Arch1eviathan]

The Mages. You can't judge them all based on the atrocities commited by only a hand full of mages.

The Templars were way out of line in the end.

[ObserverStatus]

Arch1eviathan wrote...
The Mages. You can't judge them all based on the atrocities commited by only a hand full of mages.
The Templars were way out of line in the end.

What attrocities do you refer to?

[Arch1eviathan]

bobobo878 wrote...

Arch1eviathan wrote...
The Mages. You can't judge them all based on the atrocities commited by only a hand full of mages.
The Templars were way out of line in the end.

What attrocities do you refer to?

Anders blowing up the chantry, all of the power hungry blood mages. the mage that turned your mother into a zombie. I can go on.

EDIT: Or were you just pointing out my typo? You jerk! ;.;

Modifié par Arch1eviathan, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:17 .

[ObserverStatus]

Arch1eviathan wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Arch1eviathan wrote...
The Mages. You can't judge them all based on the atrocities commited by only a hand full of mages.
The Templars were way out of line in the end.

What attrocities do you refer to?

Anders blowing up the chantry, all of the power hungry blood mages. the mage that turned your mother into a zombie. I can go on.

Yes I can judge all the mages based on those events.  The maker sent Anders to blow up the chantry and burn the heretical appeaser Justine to show the world that he was angry with the Templar's utter faiure to control the mages of Kirkwall.  As for the blood mages, other mages are responsible for them because they enabled them to continue their evils by undermining the Templar's authority, and failing to report people who they suspected of performing blood magic to the templar.  Too many mages at the end of DA II were performing blood magic for the rest of them to have know nothing about it.  And finally, if the mages had not wasted so much of the Templar's time with their ignoble quest for "liberty" they would have had more resources to devote to hunting apostates like the one who turned Hawke's mother into a zombie.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It also doesn't mean they have the wrong solution either.

Becasue if an entire dalish clan is lost to a mage, than that isn't a solution at all.

And that mage's name is Hawke.

No it's Merril if Hawke hadn't been there chances are the abomination would have killed Merril and went on a rampage.

Hawke saved the clan.

[Arch1eviathan]

I didn't like the way they protrayed the majority of the mages in kirkwall as irresponsible children, completely oblivious of the danger they  could possably pose to themselves and others, or power hungry torrents .

They weren't like that in Origins. Yeah, you had your blood mage and psycho lunatic who wanted to destroy the circle of magi here and there but a lot of the mages in that game seemed grounded and they knew what they were capable of. Characters like Wynn, Morrigan, and Ivering. There was more to them than the scared, oppressed heathens portrayed in DA2.

Modifié par Arch1eviathan, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:56 .

[CrazyRah]

Arch1eviathan wrote...

I didn't like the way they protrayed the majority of the mages in kirkwall as irresponsible children, completely oblivious of the danger they posed to themselves and others, or power hungry torrents .

They weren't like that in Origins. Yeah, you had your blood mage and psycho lunatic who wanted to destroy the circle of magi here and there but a lot of the mages in that game seemed grounded and they knew what they were capable of. Characters like Wynn, Morrigan, and Ivering. There was more to them than the scared, oppressed heathens portrayed in DA2.

I so agree on this. It got boring and it was quite annoying that the average mage was at best midly insane and wanted to drink my blood. It felt like entering a kindergarten at times. Like stated above, in Origins we had sensible mages that knew what they were capable of and were cautious about going too far

[ObserverStatus]

Arch1eviathan wrote...

I didn't like the way they protrayed the majority of the mages in kirkwall as irresponsible children, completely oblivious of the danger they  could possably pose to themselves and others, or power hungry torrents .

They weren't like that in Origins. Yeah, you had your blood mage and psycho lunatic who wanted to destroy the circle of magi here and there but a lot of the mages in that game seemed grounded and they knew what they were capable of. Characters like Wynn, Morrigan, and Ivering. There was more to them than the scared, oppressed heathens portrayed in DA2.

Ah c'mon, this discussion isn't going to go anywhere if you don't respect the fourth wall.

[LobselVith8]

bobobo878 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages aren't controlled among the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the witches and seers are free in the Kingdom of Rivain, yet mages aren't enslaving the people in those societies. I don't think your assessment is correct. In fact, some Grey Warden mages use blood magic because it gives them an edge against the darkspawn, so not every blood mage is the same.

I am not saying that any mage who uses blood magic will automatically try to take over the world, but I am saying that if  blood magic were allowed it would give unprecedented power to those who would.

It's interesting to note that fear of mages allowed a templar to take political power and abuse her authority.

bobobo878 wrote...

As for the societies that are supposedly better off without strict control of mages, we haven't seen much of the Avvar, Chasind, or kingdom of  Rivain, but we have seen more than enough of the Dalish to confirm what I have said.

Actually, we haven't seen any of the Keepers of the clans abuse their authority. Zathrian is an example of a man who made a terrible mistake after humans committed unspeakable crimes against his children, not someone who misused his position as Keeper.

bobobo878 wrote...

The keeper of the Dalish from Origins grossly misused magic when he turned his enemies into monsters, and inadvertently unleashed them on his own people. while in DA II, the Dalish courted disaster by refusing to crack
the whip when Merrill's mad experiments got out of hand, instead they just dumped her on Hawke, and let him suffer for their stupid refusal to rein in or dispose of dangerous mages.

Merrill's investigation of the Eluvian didn't directly harm anyone; in fact, Merrill isn't responsible for the death of anyone. Merrill extrapolated information from the shard and studied the lore on the Eluvian; she did the research, she was careful, and she was only willing to risk her own life for technology that could benefit the People across Thedas.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

No it's Merril if Hawke hadn't been there chances are the abomination would have killed Merril and went on a rampage.

Hawke saved the clan.

Merrill didn't force anyone to become an abomination; that particular person became an abomination through their own free will, and based on absolutely no evidence to support why they let the demon loose. The clan can commit suicide by Hawke because they attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill if he tells them the truth.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 septembre 2012 - 09:24 .

[frostajulie]

Any power, government, political faction, or nation that by force of might imprisons a portion of its population for no crime other than a circumstance of birth is in the wrong. Period.

The mages have the right of it and Anders did too. There is no middle ground in this Freedom should be a right not a privilege for the few.

[GodWood]

frostajulie wrote...
Any power, government, political faction, or nation that by force of might imprisons a portion of its population for no crime other than a circumstance of birth is in the wrong. Period.

Hypothetical:

Less than 1% of the population is born with an uncurable spreading virus which infects and kills anyone who is not a carrier.

You'd rather have billions die rather then sacrifice some of the freedoms of a tiny portion of the world's population by putting them in a quarantine?

Modifié par GodWood, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:20 .

[General User]

frostajulie wrote...

Any power, government, political faction, or nation that by force of might imprisons a portion of its population for no crime other than a circumstance of birth is in the wrong. Period.

The mages have the right of it and Anders did too. There is no middle ground in this Freedom should be a right not a privilege for the few.

Freedom is a noble ideal.  Follow any ideal, be it ever so noble, to extremes and you become a monster.  Literally in both Anders' and Meredith's cases.

[Xilizhra]

Neither of them was a monster; personally, I don't believe in monsters. Meredith was insane, though upholding a sane and hideously evil system; Anders is a fairly common extremist, though still malleable and on the right side.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Neither of them was a monster; personally, I don't believe in monsters.

Do you believe in vengeance demons and magic idols?  What about metaphors and figures of speech?

Meredith was insane, though upholding a sane and hideously evil system; Anders is a fairly common extremist, though still malleable and on the right side.

If a bi-polar, anarchist, bomb-chucking, abomination is on the right side, I'd hate to see what's on the wrong one!

Modifié par General User, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:20 .

[Xilizhra]

Do you believe in vengeance demons and magic idols? What about metaphors and figures of speech?

It's a figure of speech I tremendously dislike because it otherizes what is fundamentally a human capacity for great evil. When we call someone a monster, we're really calling ourselves inherently superior, saying that we're higher beings than they are, which is completely false.

If a bi-polar, anarchist, bomb-chucking, abomination is on the right side, I'd hate to see what's on the wrong one!

Even Stalin was on the right side for several years. All that it takes is for the wrong side to be really freakin' wrong, and that's what we have here.

[dragonflight288]

Benjamin Franklin: Anyone who chooses of their own will to sacrifice liberty in place of security inevitably loses both.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

When playing DA2, it felt like BioWare really wanted me to join the mages in their revolt. I think they're biased.