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[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Do you believe in vengeance demons and magic idols? What about metaphors and figures of speech?

It's a figure of speech I tremendously dislike because it otherizes what is fundamentally a human capacity for great evil. When we call someone a monster, we're really calling ourselves inherently superior, saying that we're higher beings than they are, which is completely false.

Except when it's true.  Not all humans have the capacity for great evil.  Certainly not the same capacity.  Have you ever heard of the Milgram experiment?

If a bi-polar, anarchist, bomb-chucking, abomination is on the right side, I'd hate to see what's on the wrong one!

Even Stalin was on the right side for several years. All that it takes is for the wrong side to be really freakin' wrong, and that's what we have here.

Stalin was never on the right side, he just went through a period where he made common cause with people who were.  Like when Meredith helped Hawke thwart the qunari attack on Kirkwall.

[General User]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Benjamin Franklin: Anyone who chooses of their own will to sacrifice liberty in place of security inevitably loses both.

Lucky for everyone then that mages in Thedas didn't choose "of their own will" but rather the choice was made for them. 

I wonder though, does that work the other way around?  Does anyone who chooses to sacrifice security in place of liberty inevitably lose both as well?

[GodWood]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Benjamin Franklin: Anyone who chooses of their own will to sacrifice liberty in place of security inevitably loses both.

The quote is actually "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Now depending on his definition of 'temporary' this either means those who would willingly enter a temporary quarantine for the safety of themselves and others deserve to have all freedom and security stripped from them (basically they're free to be killed) OR temporary could also extend to the social contract of "don't murder me and I won't murder you", meaning the majority of the world deserve to be stripped of their freedoms and security and as such are free to be killed.

On its own this is a pretty stupid quote.

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

Lucky for everyone then that mages in Thedas didn't choose "of their own will" but rather the choice was made for them. 

I don't think it's lucky for everyone; even the mage protagonist can attest to the Circle of Ferelden as an oppressive place, while pro-mage Hawke calls it slavery. I suppose not everyone shares your enthusiasm for the Chantry controlled Circles.

[Xilizhra]

Except when it's true. Not all humans have the capacity for great evil. Certainly not the same capacity. Have you ever heard of the Milgram experiment?

It just depends on what stimuli are induced. Everyone has their own "one bad day" they might go through; some people just have different thresholds.

Stalin was never on the right side, he just went through a period where he made common cause with people who were. Like when Meredith helped Hawke thwart the qunari attack on Kirkwall.

If you want to think about it like that, fine. Anders' "common cause" period isn't over yet.

Lucky for everyone then that mages in Thedas didn't choose "of their own will" but rather the choice was made for them.

It's true, the templars were the ones who made the choice to kill them all, but it was the mages' choice to leave the Chantry.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think it's lucky for everyone; even the mage protagonist can attest to the Circle of Ferelden as an oppressive place, while pro-mage Hawke calls it slavery. I suppose not everyone shares your enthusiasm for the Chantry controlled Circles.

Enthusiasm for Chantry controlled Circles is so rare, I don't even have it!  I just recognize that the Circles, with or without the Chantry beat the alternative of "mage freedom" or any other such nonsense. 

Xilizhra wrote...

It just depends on what stimuli are induced. Everyone has their own "one bad day" they might go through; some people just have different thresholds.

Different thresholds you say?  Interesting.  So tell then, what would you call someone whose "threshold" is a great deal higher or stricter than another's?  It wouldn't be 'morally superior' or anything like that, would it?

If you want to think about it like that, fine. Anders' "common cause" period isn't over yet.

Given his 'remove all chance of compromise", "revolution is the only way" diatribes, and the little fact of his embracing murder and terrorism, I'm afraid Ander's "common cause period" is very much over.  The question is: has Hawke's begun?  Ander's isn't going to hold back or compromise anymore.  Will you?  What would you compromise to join Anders on his little cursade?

It's true, the templars were the ones who made the choice to kill them all, but it was the mages' choice to leave the Chantry.

Funny, the Templars made a similar choice.

Modifié par General User, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:01 .

[Xilizhra]

Enthusiasm for Chantry controlled Circles is so rare, I don't even have it! I just recognize that the Circles, with or without the Chantry beat the alternative of "mage freedom" or any other such nonsense.

In their current phase, they're nigh-worthless. Luckily, that current phase is over and won't be coming back.

Different thresholds you say? Interesting. So tell then, what would you call someone whose "threshold" is a great deal higher or stricter than another's? It wouldn't be 'morally superior' or anything like that, would it?

What I wouldn't call them is more human, inherently superior, or anything like that. It's due to circumstances alone.

Given his 'remove all chance of compromise", "revolution is the only way" diatribes, and the little fact of his embracing murder and terrorism, I'm afraid Ander's "common cause period" is very much over. The question is: has Hawke's begun? Ander's isn't going to hold back or compromise anymore. Will you? What would you compromise to join Anders on his little cursade?

So far, I've needed to compromise nothing at all, unless you count Sebastian's tepid support. What'll come in the future has yet to be decided, of course.

Funny, the Templars made a similar choice.

So they did. Point being?

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Without the Templars, the entire world of Thedas will end up like the Tevinter Imperium.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

What I wouldn't call them is more human, inherently superior, or anything like that. It's due to circumstances alone.

But it isn't.  Some people simply have a moral fiber to their being that others lack.

So far, I've needed to compromise nothing at all, unless you count Sebastian's tepid support. What'll come in the future has yet to be decided, of course.

If you let Anders live to continue his crusade then I'm afraid you did make a compromise: justice.  You've overlooked and/or excused the deaths of innocent people and let their murderer free to do it again.

So they did. Point being?

That the mage rebellion and the Templar rebellion are two sides of the same coin, each driven by a toxic mixture of fanaticism and desperation.  And that for Thedas to have any realistic hope of this conflict having a positive outcome for anyone, bystanders included, the voices of reason, moderation, compromise, law and order, peace, and reform must be heeded.

Modifié par General User, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:40 .

[Xilizhra]

But it isn't. Some people simply have a moral fiber to their being that others lack.

Moral fiber or not, everyone has the potential to be as evil as the worst human you could name.

If you let Anders live to continue his crusade then I'm afraid you did make a compromise: justice. You've overlooked and/or excused the deaths of innocent people and let their murderer free to do it again.

Actually, since he's not attacking or threatening anyone at the time of decision, my killing him would simply be a vigilante execution. The one with the power to enforce justice is Aveline, so if you want to talk about compromises of justice, ask her about it.

That the mage rebellion and the Templar rebellion are two sides of the same coin, each driven by a toxic mixture of fanaticism and desperation. And that for Thedas to have any realistic hope of this conflict having a positive outcome for anyone, bystanders included, the voices of reason, moderation, compromise, law and order, peace, and reform must be heeded.

The Templar Order is nothing but those; the mage rebellion has some of it, but also plenty of legitimate grievances and the equally legitimate desire for freedom from oppression. Compromise between these two sides is no longer an option; when the Order is ash on the wind, we can begin talking with whatever's left.

[dragonflight288]

GodWood wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Benjamin Franklin: Anyone who chooses of their own will to sacrifice liberty in place of security inevitably loses both.

The quote is actually "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Now depending on his definition of 'temporary' this either means those who would willingly enter a temporary quarantine for the safety of themselves and others deserve to have all freedom and security stripped from them (basically they're free to be killed) OR temporary could also extend to the social contract of "don't murder me and I won't murder you", meaning the majority of the world deserve to be stripped of their freedoms and security and as such are free to be killed.

On its own this is a pretty stupid quote.

Thanks,  I misremembered it.

My way was still true.

But the original quote, on its own, is pretty stupid.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

But it isn't. Some people simply have a moral fiber to their being that others lack.

Moral fiber or not, everyone has the potential to be as evil as the worst human you could name.

No, they don't.  Some people will embrace evil, some can be forced into it, some can't be forced and have to be tricked, and others can evade even those snares and reject it entirely.  Different people have both different potentials and different capacities. 

If you let Anders live to continue his crusade then I'm afraid you did make a compromise: justice. You've overlooked and/or excused the deaths of innocent people and let their murderer free to do it again.

Actually, since he's not attacking or threatening anyone at the time of decision, my killing him would simply be a vigilante execution. The one with the power to enforce justice is Aveline, so if you want to talk about compromises of justice, ask her about it.

Aveline was the captain of the guard, with the power to enforce the law.  But Hawke was the Champion of Kirkwall and a noble of that city.  That's the thing about being a noble, the whole "hey, I'm just a citizen like everyone else" just isn't true.  Nobles have, as Bethany put it, "responsibilities." 

That the mage rebellion and the Templar rebellion are two sides of the same coin, each driven by a toxic mixture of fanaticism and desperation. And that for Thedas to have any realistic hope of this conflict having a positive outcome for anyone, bystanders included, the voices of reason, moderation, compromise, law and order, peace, and reform must be heeded.

The Templar Order is nothing but those; the mage rebellion has some of it, but also plenty of legitimate grievances and the equally legitimate desire for freedom from oppression. Compromise between these two sides is no longer an option; when the Order is ash on the wind, we can begin talking with whatever's left.

Why wait?  The Chantry is here now and willing to talk. 

Best take 'em up on it too, because once the mage rebellion is blood down the drain, the victorious Templar Order won't be looking to compromise with whatever's left... of anyone.

Modifié par General User, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:06 .

[Xilizhra]

No, they don't. Some people will embrace evil, some can be forced into it, others have to be tricked, and others can evade even those snares and reject it entirely. Different potentials and different capacities.

It all depends on circumstances. All you need to do is find the right buttons and push them.

Aveline was the captain of the guard, with the power to enforce the law. But Hawke was the Champion of Kirkwall and a noble of that city. That's the thing about being a noble, the whole "hey, I'm just a citizen like everyone else" just isn't true. Nobles have, as Bethany put it, "responsibilities."

And my responsibility as I deem it so is to defend the mages and stop an act of genocide, with the use of everyone I can manage.

Why wait? The Chantry is here now and willing to talk.

Actually, I think the Big Bad of Inquisitor kills off the Chantry leadership. But even assuming it was there, what good will it do now? The templars have already left and are trying to kill us all now; the Chantry's no longer a significant factor.

Best take 'em up on it too, because once the mage rebellion is blood down the drain, the victorious Templar Order won't be looking to compromise with whatever's left... of anyone.

A quick death now or a slow one later. In any case, I'm confident that we can win.

[Wulfram]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, I think the Big Bad of Inquisitor kills off the Chantry leadership. But even assuming it was there, what good will it do now? The templars have already left and are trying to kill us all now; the Chantry's no longer a significant factor.
.

The Chantry is the moral leadership of most of Thedas.  If they give the mages their support, then securing the friendship and alliance of the people and the governments of the world becomes a hell of a lot easier.  If they give the Templars their support, then they've got a good chance to arrange continent wide exalted marches against you.

[Xilizhra]

Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, I think the Big Bad of Inquisitor kills off the Chantry leadership. But even assuming it was there, what good will it do now? The templars have already left and are trying to kill us all now; the Chantry's no longer a significant factor.
.

The Chantry is the moral leadership of most of Thedas.  If they give the mages their support, then securing the friendship and alliance of the people and the governments of the world becomes a hell of a lot easier.  If they give the Templars their support, then they've got a good chance to arrange continent wide exalted marches against you.

To be frank, I doubt the Chantry will support anything that means it'd lose its power... unless it deemed that the alternative was worse. Showing how bad the war can get, and hopefully luring the templars into performing unpopularly brutal actions, may be a better idea before approaching the Chantry. We need to bargain on our terms.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

It all depends on circumstances. All you need to do is find the right buttons and push them.

If you mean that "with the right lever, one can move the world" there's a great deal of truth to that.  My point was rather that there are those who are "easier to move", shall we say, than others.  And keeping the same analogy, those who are harder to move towards evil are morally superior to those who easier to move.  Much less those who gleefully embrace the Dark.

And my responsibility as I deem it so is to defend the mages and stop an act of genocide, with the use of everyone I can manage.

Unfortunately responsibility in one area doesn't doesn't diminish responsibility in another.  You felt (wrongly as it turned out) that you had to choose between "justice" and "protection." And just like I said, you made a compromise.  Stick with Anders and you'll be making many, many more.

Don't get me wrong.  If there had been a chance to turn Anders over to the Kirkwall Guard, or the Chantry, or even the Templars, that would have been my first choice.  Sadly there wasn't.

Actually, I think the Big Bad of Inquisitor kills off the Chantry leadership. But even assuming it was there, what good will it do now? The templars have already left and are trying to kill us all now; the Chantry's no longer a significant factor.

Try telling that to the millions of devout Thedans and the loyal Kings and Queens.  Precisely how long to you reckon those rebel Templars will last if the Divine where to declare them heretics and call for an Exalted March agaisnt them?  Hmm?

A quick death now or a slow one later. In any case, I'm confident that we can win.

And win we can.  So long as we pick our battles and keep in mind who the real enemy is.

[Xilizhra]

If you mean that "with the right lever, one can move the world" there's a great deal of truth to that. My point was rather that there are those who are "easier to move", shall we say, than others. And keeping the same analogy, those who are harder to move towards evil are morally superior to those who easier to move. Much less those who gleefully embrace the Dark.

Fine, but your variety of moral superiority doesn't make them "monsters," i.e. a different class of being altogether.

Unfortunately responsibility in one area doesn't doesn't diminish responsibility in another. You felt (wrongly as it turned out) that you had to choose between "justice" and "protection." And just like I said, you made a compromise. Stick with Anders and you'll be making many, many more.

I don't consider death to be justice. Justice is making up for your mistakes, doing good to outweigh the evil that was done before. That, I will allow Anders to do.

Try telling that to the millions of devout Thedans and the loyal Kings and Queens. Precisely how long to you reckon those rebel Templars will last if the Divine where to declare them heretics and call for an Exalted March agaisnt them? Hmm?

Probably pretty long, given Justinia's lack of popularity and the probability that the templars can sway a lot of priests to their side. In fact, my vision of DA3 had the templars launch a bloodless coup in the Chantry itself, placing Justinia under house arrest (or rather "protective custody due to the security risks posed by the mage seditionists") and the Lord Seeker becoming de facto head of the Chantry as well as the templars (and Orlais, as Celene is dead and the new emperor is in his pocket).

And win we can. So long as we pick our battles and keep in mind who the real enemy is.

Don't worry, I only plan on killing templars.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fine, but your variety of moral superiority doesn't make them "monsters," i.e. a different class of being altogether.

Yes it does make them monsters, twisted lesser beings, depending on, as you might say... the circumstances.

I don't consider death to be justice. Justice is making up for your mistakes, doing good to outweigh the evil that was done before. That, I will allow Anders to do.

You seem to describing redemption.  Specifically redemption through works or even making amends.  Not justice.

Probably pretty long, given Justinia's lack of popularity and the probability that the templars can sway a lot of priests to their side.

Justinina is quite popular with certain sets of people, namely morally upstanding, everyday Thedans.  And, given how the Mage Rebellion started and the sorts of nutters that are driving it, that's one demographic the Rebellion is sorelylacking.

Don't worry, I only plan on killing templars.

Well... that's a start anyway.

Modifié par General User, 21 septembre 2012 - 05:00 .

[Xilizhra]

You seem to describing redemption. Specifically redemption through works or even making amends. Not justice.

If you define it that way, I consider redemption more important than justice.

Justinina is quite popular with certain sets of people, namely morally
upstanding, everyday Thedans. And, given how the Mage Rebellion started
and the sorts of nutters that are driving it, that's one demographic
the Rebellion is sorely lacking.

I'm fairly sure most of the mages driving the rebellion are rather morally upstanding. Fiona certainly is, as is Rhys. I'd argue for Adrian, though some wouldn't. Anyway, the mages have mostly been brought into this by circumstances, whereas the templars are choosing to commit genocide. Again.

Well... that's a start anyway.

I'll accept surrenders, don't worry.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you define it that way, I consider redemption more important than justice.

It is.  Very much so.  The thing is, you can't truely have redemption until justice has been satisfied.

Anyway, the mages have mostly been brought
into this by circumstances, whereas the templars are choosing to commit
genocide. Again.

All the more reason why the mages need to jump to the Chantry and hold on tight with both hands.  There's a narrow window here where, unlike the Templars, the rebel mages haven't really done anything wrong and the rest of Thedas might just rally to their side provided the fanatics and extremists in the Rebellion are silenced.  But as the war goes on, that window is going to close... fast.

I'll accept surrenders, don't worry.

That's good to hear.  Do me a favor and keep an eye or two on Anders while you're out there.  (He's not so big on the whole "don't kill innocent people" thing.)

[Xilizhra]

It is. Very much so. The thing is, you can't truely have redemption until justice has been satisfied.

And the dead can't have it regardless.

All the more reason why the mages need to jump to the Chantry and hold on tight with both hands. There's a narrow window here where, unlike the Templars, the rebel mages haven't really done anything wrong and the rest of Thedas might just rally to their side provided the fanatics and extremists in the Rebellion are silenced. But as the war goes on, that window is going to close... fast.

And you don't think the Chantry would try to keep controlling the mages in some capacity if the mages formed an alliance?

That's good to hear. Do me a favor and keep an eye or two on Anders while you're out there. (He's not so big on the whole "don't kill innocent people" thing.)

I think he'll have less motivation to break it now, but we shall see.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

It is. Very much so. The thing is, you can't truely have redemption until justice has been satisfied.

And the dead can't have it regardless.

Unfortunately no person can be responsible for anyone else's redemption.  What Hawke is responsible for, and to, are the people of Kirkwall.  And those people have been savagely attacked by an insane abomination who, if let go, will only keep on killing.  Stabbing Anders in the heart may be an imperfect solution, but letting him go is simply unconscionable.

Xilizhra wrote...

All the more reason why the mages need to jump to the Chantry and hold on tight with both hands. There's a narrow window here where, unlike the Templars, the rebel mages haven't really done anything wrong and the rest of Thedas might just rally to their side provided the fanatics and extremists in the Rebellion are silenced. But as the war goes on, that window is going to close... fast.

And you don't think the Chantry would try to keep controlling the mages in some capacity if the mages formed an alliance?

Of course they would.  But since mages need some form of external control, and I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate, I'm open to the idea.

Modifié par General User, 21 septembre 2012 - 05:53 .

[dragonflight288]

In my mind, mercy cannot rob justice. Anders/Justice must face Justice for their actions, but the templars must face justice for their abuse of power and attempts at genocide (those that are guilty at any rate.)

Likewise, any mage who'll commit atrocities themselves must also be punished in a manner appropriate to the severity of the crime.

The Chantry deserves to lose most of its power as over 1000 years, they have proven that they cannot be trusted to handle it responsibly. They didn't hold the templars accountable or do anything to help the mages, so they have lost all right to have the power over either group.

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think it's lucky for everyone; even the mage protagonist can attest to the Circle of Ferelden as an oppressive place, while pro-mage Hawke calls it slavery. I suppose not everyone shares your enthusiasm for the Chantry controlled Circles.

Enthusiasm for Chantry controlled Circles is so rare, I don't even have it!  I just recognize that the Circles, with or without the Chantry beat the alternative of "mage freedom" or any other such nonsense.

Emancipating the Circles of Magi from Chantry control is the point; allowing the Circles to exist and train mages without brutally oppressing them under the heel of an anti-mage religious order.

[SomniariKess1124]

I kind of feel sorry for the mages in the end... with them being killed for someone else's crime. but one thing that just does not make sense is how a lyrium idol sword insantly turns you into a master jedi sith lord...

But if it does i totally want that sword... Me wanna be a jedi!

Modifié par SomniariKess1124, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:18 .