189 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You haven't seen many dalish abominations rampaging around? You didnt see problems with the barbarians?
Well, given that the game doens't evne take you to explore those two AND that they are roaming, clan-based societies with a handfull of mages it doesn't come offas a surprise.

We DID see mages almost ruin TWO dalish clans. You think the loss of two clans is nothing? Mind you that's 100% mage problem among the dalish we've seen.Templars don't allow magic to "evolve" and THAT is endangering people?
What nonsense.
Mages are endagering people.
That is undeniable pattern.
No matter how they are treated (Dalish Keepers). No matter how they are trained (Uldred, Methahari). Mages keep causing trouble and destruction around them. For the safety of everyone they should be locked up. All of them.

Thats people killing other people. magic may have aggravated the situation but magic is not to blame in these cases. Oh btw normal people are just as fond of causing trouble and destruction around them. 1 mundane may not accomplish as much. But their is quality in quanity and many mundanes can cause far more damage then the mages.  But im not suggesting that we should destroy the bulk of the mundanes now am i?

Mundane poeple don't posses the same level of power or danger. For one, the power of a mundane is not "personal". Even a mad king - who you coudl argue is "powerfull" relies on the obedience and service of others. On his own, the king posses no power whatsoever. If the army refuses obedience, he has nothing.

Furthermore, normal people won't kill you AGAINST THEIR WILL and raise your corpse to serve in their private army. Normal people can't mind control. Normal people can bring forth demons into this world.

Comparing a mundane ot a mage is like comparing yourself to a guy with a atom bomb strapped to his back.

And lastly, destroying the bulk of the mundanes is simply not practical or feasable. So as a solution if fails on the very first step.

Oh btw that thedas chantry states do not evolve their magic is actually a rather big thing because neither the tevinter imperium , darkspawn and qunari dont give a **** and are imroving on their abilities. The templars are signing the death warrant of humanity. In the world where genocide can happen your silly concern about a few normal people is hardly relevant. Either you master magic or you will succumb to people who will master it.

There ins't a "few" normal people.
There is a "few mages" however.

And agian, what's with the "no evolving magic" bit?

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
I dont give a damn if someone is dangerous or not. The only thing i care about is why and how they use their abilties.

It's a good thing smarter people do care.

Without mind control you cannot know the "why"  (and if the other side has mind control, you'll know even less) and without strict oversight you cannot control the "how" either.

DPSSOC wrote...

Nice! when templar supporters cannot counter an argument they pull facts out of their ass. And i like you to remember that the more advanced qunari tech could only be defeated by magic.

Wrong.
The Quanri are quite suceptable to being hacked by good old swords.

The darkspawn are a magical opponent that can only be fought through the use of magic. Regardless of the dangers magic research needs to be sped up. If the mages cannot find a permant solution to the darkspawn then all life is in danger.

Kill all archedmons. Only two left bt.w. Simple.

Also, you assme there is some kind of magical solution at all, and ONLY a magical solution.

[DPSSOC]

DKJaigen wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Ok this brings something up I really don't like about these discussions.  Always when faced with how dangerous mages are, the pro-mages point out how a group of people, or single person of influence in control of many people, can be just as dangerous.  Here's the problem, such comparissons aren't fair.

Let's look at it this way, your neighbour keeps 20 sticks of dynamite in his shed, when approached about the fact that just keeping dynamite lying around in a shed is dangerous and that he should get rid of it he responds that 200 thousand butane lighters would be just as dangerous but people aren't bothered about lighters just lying around.

When debating destructive potential and assessing risk you must, absolutely must, deal in equal numbers and circumstances.  You cannot compare an average mage to a group or a noble, it's not equal.  You would need to compare one average mage to one average person.  If you wanted you could argue comparing one mage to a proportionate population of normal people (1 mage is x% of mage population so compare to a group that is x% of normal population), but without accurate numbers on either side that's impossible to determine, and again you couldn't count noble because of the disparate circumstances.

I dont give a damn if someone is dangerous or not. The only thing i care about is why and how they use their abilties.

 
Then argue as such.  If you don't care how dangerous people are don't bring up the "Well x amount of normal people can be just as dangerous," arguments.  Make your case for why we should think the mages won't behave like normal people and succumb to all the vile, wretched qualities that plague every man, woman, and child.  What makes you believe that mages won't be as petty, greedy, and cruel as the rest of the population, and why do you believe they aren't more likely to act on such impulses because they have greater means to do so.

DKJaigen wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
The Qunari have all but abandoned magic favouring advancements in technology, no reason Thedas couldn't do the same if they had to.  Also to say that magic in Thedas hasn't evolved is being disingenuous, magical research and progress still happens it's just heavily controlled because things can go very wrong.

Nice! when templar supporters cannot counter an argument they pull facts out of their ass.

 
Such as?  The Qunari don't rely on magic, they don't trust it, that's why magic was the deciding factor in the war.

DKJaigen wrote...
The darkspawn are a magical opponent that can only be fought through the use of magic.

 
The Dwarves beg to differ.  Hell DA:O begs to differ considering you can defeat the Archdemon with 0 magical assistance.  Wynne can die, Morrigan can leave, the Mages can be killed, and the Elves can become dog food and you still stop the Blight.  Magic is an effective weapon against the darkspawn because they attack in groups, not because it's the only thing that can hurt them.

DKJaigen wrote...
Regardless of the dangers magic research needs to be sped up. If the mages cannot find a permant solution to the darkspawn then all life is in danger.

How and why?  The Blights have been getting shorter that seems to suggest the darkspawn are either becoming weaker or stagnating due to lack of advancement in relation to the nations of Thedas.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 23 septembre 2012 - 02:05 .

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Kill all archedmons. Only two left bt.w. Simple.

Also, you assme there is some kind of magical solution at all, and ONLY a magical solution.

Who the **** says that the darkspawn stay in their hidy holes if all archdemons are killed? it just as well trigger an unending blight. And yeah magic is the only solution because not even with out tech can we stop a OG soul from transporting to a new host now can we?

DSPOCC im once again astounded by your lack knowledge. Grey wardens are a product of magic so your entire claim that you dont need magic is false. Also for the record the army the warden collect will lose if the Archdemon is not killed.And who the **** says that DS are getting weaker? If you havent noticed the DS managed to destroy the newly formed grey wardens in awakening. they alos destroyed a good portion of the legion of the damned. They are getting stronger because they grow intelligent. so what you post is a big pile of ****.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 23 septembre 2012 - 08:39 .

[DPSSOC]

DKJaigen wrote...
DSPOCC im once again astounded by your lack knowledge. Grey wardens are a product of magic so your entire claim that you dont need magic is false.

 
Ah yes forgot about that, my apologies.

DKJaigen wrote...
And who the **** says that DS are getting weaker?

 
History actually.  The 1st Blight lasted centuries, ever since they've gotten shorter.  The Fifth Blight was knocked out in a year.  Either the darkspawn are getting weaker OR they aren't progressing as quickly as the nations of Thedas because we keep beating them faster.  If it takes me 3 hours to beat you in an arm wrestle, then a few years later it takes me 1, then a few years later it takes me 15 minutes either you're getting worse or I'm getting better.

DKJaigen wrote...
If you havent noticed the DS managed to destroy the newly formed grey wardens in awakening. they alos destroyed a good portion of the legion of the damned.

Not denying the darkspawn win skirmishes, or even battles (look at Ostagar), my point is that ultimately the darkspawn lose.  Even with the Architect and his intelligent darkspawn they still lose, and they lose faster each time we face them.  The Fifth Blight lasted a year, the 6th will most likely be months and I wouldn't be surprised if the 7th lasted only days or weeks.  That's the trend, that's the undeniable fact as presented by history, each Blight has been shorter than the one that came before, and there are only two explanations for that.

DKJaigen wrote...
They are getting stronger because they grow intelligent. so what you post is a big pile of ****.

 
They aren't "becoming" intelligent though.  The Architect, until he started mucking around with things, was unique.  We've been given no indication that greater intelligence is an evolutionary trend that we have to worry about, the intelligent one was an abberation and only through him are more being created.  That one intelligent darkspawn has also expressed a desire to end the violence, whether you believe him or not is up to you.

[Xilizhra]

I'd probably help, peacefully brining in fugitives is vastly better than violently brining in fugitives. You seem to forget that Anders has gone out of his way, pretty much his entire life, to make the Templars his problem. He had problems with them in the Circle because he constantly tried to escape, and he had trouble with them in Kirkwall because he actively opposed them. His perspective on the Templars is about as relevant as that of a career gang member on the police, which is to say not at all.

Anders is just brave enough to stand up to them. He hasn't always done it in the most skillful manner possible, but I trust him far more than I'd trust, say, Fenris. Or most actual templars.

[DKJaigen]

DPSSOC wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
DSPOCC im once again astounded by your lack knowledge. Grey wardens are a product of magic so your entire claim that you dont need magic is false.

 
Ah yes forgot about that, my apologies.

DKJaigen wrote...
And who the **** says that DS are getting weaker?

 
History actually.  The 1st Blight lasted centuries, ever since they've gotten shorter.  The Fifth Blight was knocked out in a year.  Either the darkspawn are getting weaker OR they aren't progressing as quickly as the nations of Thedas because we keep beating them faster.  If it takes me 3 hours to beat you in an arm wrestle, then a few years later it takes me 1, then a few years later it takes me 15 minutes either you're getting worse or I'm getting better.

DKJaigen wrote...
If you havent noticed the DS managed to destroy the newly formed grey wardens in awakening. they alos destroyed a good portion of the legion of the damned.

Not denying the darkspawn win skirmishes, or even battles (look at Ostagar), my point is that ultimately the darkspawn lose.  Even with the Architect and his intelligent darkspawn they still lose, and they lose faster each time we face them.  The Fifth Blight lasted a year, the 6th will most likely be months and I wouldn't be surprised if the 7th lasted only days or weeks.  That's the trend, that's the undeniable fact as presented by history, each Blight has been shorter than the one that came before, and there are only two explanations for that.

DKJaigen wrote...
They are getting stronger because they grow intelligent. so what you post is a big pile of ****.

 
They aren't "becoming" intelligent though.  The Architect, until he started mucking around with things, was unique.  We've been given no indication that greater intelligence is an evolutionary trend that we have to worry about, the intelligent one was an abberation and only through him are more being created.  That one intelligent darkspawn has also expressed a desire to end the violence, whether you believe him or not is up to you.

I simply like to assume that you like to play ignorant. The reasons why blights are shorter is because the grey wardens know how to end it. Namely cut of the head of the army: the archdemon. Their is no indication that darkspawn are getting weaker.
Some darkspawn are now intelligent and i dont doubt for that they can create more intelligent darkspawn. And i will once again remind you that the darkspawn are now able to destroy the legion of the death and the grey wardens. Its shows that they are capable of surgical strikes.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
Who the **** says that the darkspawn stay in their hidy holes if all archdemons are killed? it just as well trigger an unending blight. And yeah magic is the only solution because not even with out tech can we stop a OG soul from transporting to a new host now can we?

Given that when there's no archedmon to lead them, there isn't a Blight I'd say that's unlikely.

Also, if you kill all the darkspawn then there is no where for the Archdemons soul to jump to, now is there?

Grey wardens are a product of magic so your entire claim that you dont need magic is false.

Drinking darkspawn blood = magic?

[ediskrad327]

there needs to be a Balance

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Who the **** says that the darkspawn stay in their hidy holes if all archdemons are killed? it just as well trigger an unending blight. And yeah magic is the only solution because not even with out tech can we stop a OG soul from transporting to a new host now can we?

Given that when there's no archedmon to lead them, there isn't a Blight I'd say that's unlikely.

Also, if you kill all the darkspawn then there is no where for the Archdemons soul to jump to, now is there?

Grey wardens are a product of magic so your entire claim that you dont need magic is false.

Drinking darkspawn blood = magic?

Yeah drinking magically prepared darkspawn blood is indeed magic with some hints its even bloodmagic.
And tell me how are the templars going to kill every single darkspawn?  If the Tevinter imperium and the dwarven empire could not beat the darkspawn in a war of attrition then i doubt the current nations are able to defeat the darkspawn in a war of attrition. And awakening already proved that darkspawn no longer need archdemons to be dangerous.

So tell me Lotion how are those silly little templars going to defeat those darkspawn? They dont. Should the templars be succesful in the coming war it could mean the end of thedas. You try to apply morals in a world where entire races can be exterminated. In such a world you do what is needed to survive. What do you need to survive? magic. So the templars are always wrong no matter how wel intentioned they are

[Warden661]

DKJaigen wrote...

So the templars are always wrong no matter how wel intentioned they are

I think that their intentions do matter. The original intention of the Templar Order was to not only protect the outside world from the dangers of magic but to also protect the mages from the outside world that fears them so much because of their magic. Some Templars, such as Thrask, hold true to that intention while others, like Alrik, have deviated from it and just stuck with the protecting the outside world from magic part.

So, in my opinion, I think that intentions do matter. I think that the traditional templar is right while the more extremist veiw is wrong.

In my opinion the Templar Order in and of itself isn't wrong but the people who currently run it are. Same with the mages. Many will claim they deserve freedom but then turn into an abomination because they decided that blood magic was the only way to do it. An act the really does support the arguement made by all Templars, traditional and extreme.

So neither the Templars or the mages are really wrong. It's the extremists on each side that makes them look that way, however.

Modifié par BoBear, 24 septembre 2012 - 10:52 .

[DPSSOC]

DKJaigen wrote...
I simply like to assume that you like to play ignorant. The reasons why blights are shorter is because the grey wardens know how to end it. Namely cut of the head of the army: the archdemon. Their is no indication that darkspawn are getting weaker.

 
Yes there is.  Ok the Grey Wardens have known how to end the Blights since the first one.  However knowing how to end it still requires getting to the Archdemon and killing it.  This requires fighting the horde.  If the darkspawn weren't getting weaker OR, and you seem to like to ignore this part, not progressing at the same rate as the rest of Thedas the Blights would still be taking roughly the same amount of time.  Hell if the darkspawn were actually making forward progress the Blights would be taking longer.  That's not the case though, the Blights are getting shorter by leaps and bounds.  Again either they are getting weaker OR we're outpacing them in terms of advancement.

DKJaigen wrote...
Some darkspawn are now intelligent and i dont doubt for that they can create more intelligent darkspawn. And i will once again remind you that the darkspawn are now able to destroy the legion of the death and the grey wardens. Its shows that they are capable of surgical strikes.

And again those intelligent darkspawn are an abberation, with the exception of the first they've not been able to naturally produce them.  They aren't indicative of the development of the darkspawn as a whole.  Also the darkspawn have been killing the Legion of the Dead and the Grey Wardens for centuries, nobody has ever denied they're a credible threat.  As for the surgical strikes I'll point out that pack predators have been performing them since before we were making stone tools.

[Kileyan]

I honestly don't care, I've already burned out on this mage vs templar thing.

To stay on topic, it kinda sounds like the futuristic testing of babies, where scientists think they have found the genes that define who will likely become a sociopath or criminal. What do you do with that knowledge, do you euthanize or lock up every such child.

In the case of Dragon Ages, what do you do with every kid who shows some affinity to the fade, do you assume everyone of them are demons waiting to attack, how do you know the good and the bad. Especially in a world where the magic can manifest itself in such an insidious way of controlling minds. Not knowing that your thoughts are your own is a scary thing, I can see the kneejerk reaction toward all mages, but still find the locking up and controlling of them as a foul thing.

[Kileyan]

Also I think it was alluded to in DA2, the Templars have become prison guards, high on their power, and likely corrupted by a bit of their own taking of drugs. That old experiment done with college kids, where after a while they started treating their peers like crap because they had power over them. They are starting to see the mages as subhuman, not persons and treating them as playthings in a really creeper way. What was that, turning them into zombies to make them toys for their own use, darn creepy.

[Shadow Fox]

Kileyan wrote...

I honestly don't care, I've already burned out on this mage vs templar thing.

To stay on topic, it kinda sounds like the futuristic testing of babies, where scientists think they have found the genes that define who will likely become a sociopath or criminal. What do you do with that knowledge, do you euthanize or lock up every such child.

In the case of Dragon Ages, what do you do with every kid who shows some affinity to the fade, do you assume everyone of them are demons waiting to attack, how do you know the good and the bad. Especially in a world where the magic can manifest itself in such an insidious way of controlling minds. Not knowing that your thoughts are your own is a scary thing, I can see the kneejerk reaction toward all mages, but still find the locking up and controlling of them as a foul thing.

It's more the mutant thing from Marvel granted the way they went with that was to make the pro reg side as unsympathic as possible

[ImperatorMortis]

Kileyan wrote...

I honestly don't care, I've already burned out on this mage vs templar thing.

To stay on topic, it kinda sounds like the futuristic testing of babies, where scientists think they have found the genes that define who will likely become a sociopath or criminal. What do you do with that knowledge, do you euthanize or lock up every such child.

In the case of Dragon Ages, what do you do with every kid who shows some affinity to the fade, do you assume everyone of them are demons waiting to attack, how do you know the good and the bad. Especially in a world where the magic can manifest itself in such an insidious way of controlling minds. Not knowing that your thoughts are your own is a scary thing, I can see the kneejerk reaction toward all mages, but still find the locking up and controlling of them as a foul thing.

I don't really like that analogy. Sort of puts mages on the level of sociopaths. Also if I may add everyone, and I mean everyone has the potential to become a criminal .

The Templars vs Mages thing is more the X-Men in my views. I wonder if there will be an equivalent of Proffessor Xavior, and Magneto in DA3. 

[Shadow Fox]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

I honestly don't care, I've already burned out on this mage vs templar thing.

To stay on topic, it kinda sounds like the futuristic testing of babies, where scientists think they have found the genes that define who will likely become a sociopath or criminal. What do you do with that knowledge, do you euthanize or lock up every such child.

In the case of Dragon Ages, what do you do with every kid who shows some affinity to the fade, do you assume everyone of them are demons waiting to attack, how do you know the good and the bad. Especially in a world where the magic can manifest itself in such an insidious way of controlling minds. Not knowing that your thoughts are your own is a scary thing, I can see the kneejerk reaction toward all mages, but still find the locking up and controlling of them as a foul thing.

I don't really like that analogy. Sort of puts mages on the level of sociopaths. Also if I may add everyone, and I mean everyone has the potential to become a criminal .

The Templars vs Mages thing is more the X-Men in my views. I wonder if there will be an equivalent of Proffessor Xavior, and Magneto in DA3. 

Wynne and Anders are pretty much these already

[ElijahLa]

I think regular mages are alright. Blood mages though...they need to be put in custody

[LobselVith8]

ElijahLa wrote...

I think regular mages are alright. Blood mages though...they need to be put in custody

Does that include Grey Warden mages who use blood magic to defeat the darkspawn, and apostates like Merrill who use blood magic without harming innocent people?

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ElijahLa wrote...

I think regular mages are alright. Blood mages though...they need to be put in custody

Does that include Grey Warden mages who use blood magic to defeat the darkspawn, and apostates like Merrill who use blood magic without harming innocent people?

Merril hardly uses Blood magic and I doubt she uses it inthe Alienge because the Templars would have found her even so Merrill's actions pretty much destroy her clan.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'd probably help, peacefully brining in fugitives is vastly better than violently brining in fugitives. You seem to forget that Anders has gone out of his way, pretty much his entire life, to make the Templars his problem. He had problems with them in the Circle because he constantly tried to escape, and he had trouble with them in Kirkwall because he actively opposed them. His perspective on the Templars is about as relevant as that of a career gang member on the police, which is to say not at all.

Anders is just brave enough to stand up to them. He hasn't always done it in the most skillful manner possible, but I trust him far more than I'd trust, say, Fenris. Or most actual templars.

There are mages who have stood against the Chantry across the centuries - including Aldenon the Wise, who helped Calenhad establish the nation of Ferelden from warring teyrnirs because the enigmatic mage wanted to create a kingdom where all people would be equals, and violently opposed the Chantry controlled Circles because he condemned them as slavery.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 04 octobre 2012 - 08:01 .

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Merril hardly uses Blood magic and I doubt she uses it inthe Alienge because the Templars would have found her even so Merrill's actions pretty much destroy her clan. 

Merrill uses blood magic in combat, no sane mage would use magic in public in an anti-mage nation, and Marethari is the person responsible for the demise of the clan since they attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood because Marethari became an abomination and was killed as a consequence.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Merril hardly uses Blood magic and I doubt she uses it inthe Alienge because the Templars would have found her even so Merrill's actions pretty much destroy her clan. 

Merrill uses blood magic in combat, no sane mage would use magic in public in an anti-mage nation, and Marethari is the person responsible for the demise of the clan since they attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood because Marethari became an abomination and was killed as a consequence.

Combat is segregated from story in DA2.She became an abomination to save Merril from her idiocy and I wasn't aware that it was considered cold blooded murder to attempt to avenge a beloved leader when the cause of her death is right in front of them.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 04 octobre 2012 - 08:15 .

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill uses blood magic in combat, no sane mage would use magic in public in an anti-mage nation, and Marethari is the person responsible for the demise of the clan since they attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood because Marethari became an abomination and was killed as a consequence.

Combat is segregated from story in DA2.She became an abomination to save Merril from her idiocy and I wasn't aware that it was considered cold blooded murder to attempt to avenge a beloved leader when the cause of her death is right in front of them.

The general mechanics address that Merrill uses blood magic in combat, which is no different than the mechanics showing that Varric uses Bianca as a weapon. If Hawke supports Merrill, there's no reason for her to abandon her blood magic abilities.

Also, Marethari was the one who endangered everyone by becoming an abomination. How is Merrill an idiot when she was the one who refused to release Audacity from the totem, while Marethari released the demon because she thought Audacity would escape through the Eluvian? And how did Marethari even suspect Audacity could do such a thing? Did Audacity tell her this was going to transpire? If that's the case, then Marethari was the one who Audacity probably targeted all along.

And I'm not even going to address the elven hunters trying to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood simply because Hawke didn't coddle them as though they were children.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill uses blood magic in combat, no sane mage would use magic in public in an anti-mage nation, and Marethari is the person responsible for the demise of the clan since they attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood because Marethari became an abomination and was killed as a consequence.

Combat is segregated from story in DA2.She became an abomination to save Merril from her idiocy and I wasn't aware that it was considered cold blooded murder to attempt to avenge a beloved leader when the cause of her death is right in front of them.

The general mechanics address that Merrill uses blood magic in combat, which is no different than the mechanics showing that Varric uses Bianca as a weapon. If Hawke supports Merrill, there's no reason for her to abandon her blood magic abilities.

Also, Marethari was the one who endangered everyone by becoming an abomination. How is Merrill an idiot when she was the one who refused to release Audacity from the totem, while Marethari released the demon because she thought Audacity would escape through the Eluvian? And how did Marethari even suspect Audacity could do such a thing? Did Audacity tell her this was going to transpire? If that's the case, then Marethari was the one who Audacity probably targeted all along.

And I'm not even going to address the elven hunters trying to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood simply because Hawke didn't coddle them as though they were children.

The demon's plan from the start was to posses Merril and considering how easily Merril betrays you in the Fade when the Pride demon makes it offer and how sympathic she is to demons in general I'm not very confident that Merril wouldn't have released it had it asked.


So basicly if someone's actions caused the death of a nation's leader and some smuck refused to let that nation enact justice on that person they would be totally cool with that and should just stand down let bygones be bygones? because that's how  the elves feel.