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[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The general mechanics address that Merrill uses blood magic in combat, which is no different than the mechanics showing that Varric uses Bianca as a weapon. If Hawke supports Merrill, there's no reason for her to abandon her blood magic abilities.

Also, Marethari was the one who endangered everyone by becoming an abomination. How is Merrill an idiot when she was the one who refused to release Audacity from the totem, while Marethari released the demon because she thought Audacity would escape through the Eluvian? And how did Marethari even suspect Audacity could do such a thing? Did Audacity tell her this was going to transpire? If that's the case, then Marethari was the one who Audacity probably targeted all along.

And I'm not even going to address the elven hunters trying to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood simply because Hawke didn't coddle them as though they were children. 

The demon's plan from the start was to posses Merril and considering how easily Merril betrays you in the Fade when the Pride demon makes it offer and how sympathic she is to demons in general I'm not very confident that Merril wouldn't have released it had it asked.

Because a quest where Hawke's companions betray him in a matter of seconds because a demon made them an offer makes total sense.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

So basicly if someone's actions caused the death of a nation's leader and some smuck refused to let that nation enact justice on that person they would be totally cool with that and should just stand down let bygones be bygones? because that's how  the elves feel.

Since Marethari caused her own death by becoming an abomination, it wasn't Merrill's fault. Simply because Marethari came up with a possibility from her own imagination, or was manipulated by Audacity, doesn't make it Merrill's fault. You're arguing that it's Merrill's fault that Marethari endangered her clan and let a demon loose, based on absolutely no concrete evidence to support the possibility she pulled from the aether. I simply don't buy that.

[FaWa]

Yea that quest is definitely not a valid point. Everyone takes that offer basically

[Warden661]

It wasn't Merrill's fault the demon possessed Merathari, everyones' actions are their own. That being said I do think that Merrill would have eventually been possessed by the demon. She is simpathetic towards demons, she even says that demons are just like normal people, they can't help it that they are who they are (or something like that) during the mission where you take Flemeth's amulet to Sundermount. I personally beleive that she is consumed by the Eluvian and would do anything to fix it, including acepting any deal that the demon would make her. Sure she was careful at first, but eventually she would just get too desperate. I think Marethari knew this and in order to protect Merrill, she let the demon possess her instead. The demon of course doesn't care who let him possess them, as long as he'd be free. But like i said, it's not Merrill's fault the keeper did that. Marethari chose her fate.

[DKJaigen]

The demon's plan from the start was to posses Merril and considering how easily Merril betrays you in the
Fade when the Pride demon makes it offer and how sympathic she is to demons in general I'm not very confident that Merril wouldn't have released it had it asked.

You can assume all you want. she did not release it. And to be honest eveyone falls for it. the only one that got me pissed of is Fenris. Because he betrays you for personal power. 

[LobselVith8]

BoBear wrote...

It wasn't Merrill's fault the demon possessed Merathari, everyones' actions are their own. That being said I do think that Merrill would have eventually been possessed by the demon. She is simpathetic towards demons, she even says that demons are just like normal people, they can't help it that they are who they are (or something like that) during the mission where you take Flemeth's amulet to Sundermount.

Merrill makes her stance on the denizens of the Fade very clear to Anders, with none of her dry sarcasm:

"Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

She isn't sympathetic, she's aware that all of the denizens of the Fade are potentially dangerous.

BoBear wrote...

I personally beleive that she is consumed by the Eluvian and would do anything to fix it, including acepting any deal that the demon would make her. Sure she was careful at first, but eventually she would just get too desperate. I think Marethari knew this and in order to protect Merrill, she let the demon possess her instead. The demon of course doesn't care who let him possess them, as long as he'd be free. But like i said, it's not Merrill's fault the keeper did that. Marethari chose her fate.

Merrill actually tells an aggressive Hawke that she has no plans on releasing Audacity.

[Warden661]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill actually tells an aggressive Hawke that she has no plans on releasing Audacity.

I don't think it matters whether or not she planned on letting audacity free, plans change. Like I said, if she got desperate enough who knows what she would have done. She may not have intentionally released the demon but it could have tricked her in some way. We'll never know of course so any points either of us make are mute.

I still think she is simpathetic towards demons, not completely, but certainly more than most, less than some. There are those who love them for the power they have, those who don't hate them but understand the danger they pose, and those who hate them for the danger they pose. I think she's in the middle somewhere, maybe a little farther towards loving them for their power.

Edit: More of a respect thing.

Modifié par BoBear, 11 octobre 2012 - 11:33 .

[LobselVith8]

BoBear wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill actually tells an aggressive Hawke that she has no plans on releasing Audacity.

I don't think it matters whether or not she planned on letting audacity free, plans change. Like I said, if she got desperate enough who knows what she would have done. She may not have intentionally released the demon but it could have tricked her in some way. We'll never know of course so any points either of us make are mute.

Why would Merrill let Audacity free now, when she has refused to do so for nearly a decade?

BoBear wrote...

I still think she is simpathetic towards demons, not completely, but certainly more than most, less than some.

Merrill isn't sympathetic to spirits. She openly chastises Anders for thinking there is such a thing as a good spirit. Merrill explicitly says all spirits are dangerous.

BoBear wrote...

There are those who love them for the power they have, those who don't hate them but understand the danger they pose, and those who hate them for the danger they pose. I think she's in the middle somewhere, maybe a little farther towards loving them for their power.

I think you're confusing Merrill not sharing Anders' Andrastian views on Spirits and Demons with Merrill seeing all the denizens of the Fade as spirits.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 11 octobre 2012 - 08:44 .

[Warden661]

LobselVith8 wrote...

 Why would Merrill let Audacity free now, when she has refused to do so for nearly a decade?

Why not? The Eluvian still isn't fixed and nothing else seems like it's going to work. She getting desperate to reclaim some of her peoples' history by fixing the mirror. The key word being DESPERATE. She tells Anders that if she had any other choice but to use the demon she would take it. She also tells Anders after you kill the keeper that it was "her risk to take". My point is that she is so consumed with fixing the Eluvian that eventually she would have done anything the demon said was neccessary. She even asks Hawke to come with her to ask the demon for help again just in case the demon got free and she was somehow possessed.

LobselVith8 wrote...

 Merrill isn't sympathetic to spirits. She openly chastises Anders for thinking there is such a thing as a good spirit. Merrill explicitly says all spirits are dangerous.

I know that she understands that all demons and spirits are dangerous, whether they embody human virtues or sins, she knows that anything with that type of power is dangerous. As I said before, perhaps sympathy isn't the right word, respect would be better suited.

She also explicitly tells Anders that she needed the demons help and that he was quite nice about it. She also explicitly tells Anders that demons differ from each other just like people differ from each other. Comparing demons to people is pretty respectful.

LobselVith8 wrote...


I think you're confusing Merrill not sharing Anders' Andrastian views on Spirits and Demons with Merrill seeing all the denizens of the Fade as spirits.

I'm not confused. I know that Merrill doesn't beleive in the Chantry's explanation of how spirits and demons originated and what their religious significance is. A spirit or demon is powerful and dangerous in any culture and it's how Merrill feels towards this power and danger which I was getting at. She knows their danger but respects their power. I feel that she respects their power a bit more then she cares about the danger because she goes to the demon for help. She wants the power, despite the danger.

Modifié par BoBear, 11 octobre 2012 - 11:41 .

[LobselVith8]

BoBear wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why would Merrill let Audacity free now, when she has refused to do so for nearly a decade? 

Why not? The Eluvian still isn't fixed and nothing else seems like it's going to work. She getting desperate to reclaim some of her peoples' history by fixing the mirror. The key word being DESPERATE. She tells Anders that if she had any other choice but to use the demon she would take it.

Merrill addresses that she went to Audacity to learn blood magic, because she lacked the sufficient amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic. She is sarcastic most of the time with Anders (such as her joke about Ser Pounce-A-Lot), but when she is serious with him, she addresses that there is no such thing as a good spirit, because all spirits are dangerous.

Furthermore, she explains that she will not let Audacity loose from its totem.

BoBear wrote...

She also tells Anders after you kill the keeper that it was "her risk to take". My point is that she is so consumed with fixing the Eluvian that eventually she would have done anything the demon said was neccessary. She even asks Hawke to come with her to ask the demon for help again just in case the demon got free and she was somehow possessed.

Of course it was her risk to take; dealing with Audacity was the risk she was taking, and she noted in Act III that it seemed as though Audacity was gone prior to heading to Sundermount, which is why she asks Hawke to accompany her (just in case). She acts more mature than the Keeper in asking Hawke to kill her if Audacity was free and she was possessed, showing her concern is for others. 

BoBear wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill isn't sympathetic to spirits. She openly chastises Anders for thinking there is such a thing as a good spirit. Merrill explicitly says all spirits are dangerous.

I know that she understands that all demons and spirits are dangerous, whether they embody human virtues or sins, she knows that anything with that type of power is dangerous. As I said before, perhaps sympathy isn't the right word, respect would be better suited.

Spirits and Demons are Andrastian concepts tied to their religion, since Andrastians believe Spirits are the First Children of the Maker, and Demons are Spirits who turned their back on Him in jealousy over humanity. Merrill, as a Dalish elf, doesn't hold these values, so she simply sees the denizens of the Fade as spirits. The Dalish even call the realm of spirits the Beyond.

BoBear wrote...

She also explicitly tells Anders that she needed the demons help and that he was quite nice about it. She also explicitly tells Anders that demons differ from each other just like people differ from each other. Comparing demons to people is pretty respectful.

You realize she was being sarcastic with Anders when she says Audacity was nice, right? Next you're going to tell me that she really thinks the Alienage is sunshine and rainbows.

BoBear wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think you're confusing Merrill not sharing Anders' Andrastian views on Spirits and Demons with Merrill seeing all the denizens of the Fade as spirits.

I'm not confused. I know that Merrill doesn't beleive in the Chantry's explanation of how spirits and demons originated and what their religious significance is. A spirit or demon is powerful and dangerous in any culture and it's how Merrill feels towards this power and danger which I was getting at. She knows their danger but respects their power. I feel that she respects their power a bit more then she cares about the danger because she goes to the demon for help. She wants the power, despite the danger.

Merrill knows the danger of dealing with spirits, but she believes the risk is worth it because it can potentially benefit the People. She goes to Audacity for assistance with blood magic, a denizen of the Fade who is trapped in a totem and sundered from the Fade. It's no different than Hawke risking his life to go into the Deep Roads for the opportunity to change the life of his family, despite the danger of the darkspawn.

[Jarlaxlecq]

you might as well be asking whos in the right, Palestinians or Jews. They have both done wrong and have been wronged.

[Madeline McQueen]

Yes they should have their freedom. Only the evil ones should be held by templers yes.

[TyphoonChef]

I don't know, look at theTtevinter Imperium.....holding any innocent person against their will is wrong...but in Ferelden, mages seem to quick to use blood magic.

[LobselVith8]

TyphoonChef wrote...

I don't know, look at theTtevinter Imperium.....holding any innocent person against their will is wrong...but in Ferelden, mages seem to quick to use blood magic.

The Tevinter Imperium enslaves mages and non-mages alike.

I think you're addressing Uldred's rebellion, where he convinced the people allied with him to use blood magic, which was likely because templars can nullify the abilities of a mage using ordinary magic. However, blood magic isn't evil; Grey Warden mages have used blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn.

[Wompoo]

Templars are just drug addicts and murderous zealots now firmly under the control of the Chantry. Are mages dangerous? I think poor old Thedas has more problems then mages to deal with: The Chantry, a bogus god >>> the Maker (great god there, wanted a bit of sexy time with another man's wife). As the spirits say, there are no gods (in the Fade any way, think the Elves are correct there). In both games I've seen more death and destruction committed by non mages then mages. Thedas, one hell of a dysfunctional world.

[Shadow Quickpaw]

Personally, I'm with Varric: "I'm getting heartily sick of Mages and Templars"
and Snarky Hawke: "Someday I'd like to go one week without meeting an insane mage; just ONE WEEK."

Part of it is that I think bioware could have done a better job in portraying both sides of the conflict.

But in any case I think we can agree that most of the damage to Thedas has been done by the battles between these two groups against each other. As in their arguemenst cause more destruction than either group could do on their own. My beef is with BOTH groups, because they're organized in such a way that it is INCREDIBLY difficult to find common ground and form a system that keeps everyone safe and happy. And NO, Thrask's group doesn't count because half of them were just using him to get to Hawke and Meredith.

If you ask me, neither the Chantry nor the Imperium can properly handle this issue because of the ONE THING they both have in common: They treat Mages differently than they treat "regular" people. The Imperium puts them on God-like pedestals, while the Chantry (for better or worse) treats them like dirt. "Magic is a sign of the Maker's disfavor," as they are SO OFTEN fond of putting it.

Cullen had a saying: "Mages CANNOT be treated like the rest of us." Really? HOW DO YOU KNOW?! We don't. We have no idea what would happen if Mages are treated like regular people. In the ideal situation, (hypothetically if mages were treated no different than someone with an abnormally large sword they are skilled with) the only mages who would turn to blood magic-and-or demons would be the corrupt few, the small number who seek power above all else.

What do we have with the current Andrastian system? Well, those... PLUS the ones driven by fear, Templar zealotry, Imperium political B.S. (being a Mage in the Imperium is like being a Sith: you either use every means at your disposal to gain power, or you die), and desparation. What does this tell you? THE CHANTRY DOESN'T DO WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO. It doesn't work. Half the mage-problems in DA2 Kirkwall would have been solved quikly and cleanly if Meredith hadn't gone bat-booger crazy with that stupid idol and squeezing every last drop out of the Circle. I do stress HALF, however, as every time I happened across YET ANOTHER ABOMINATION I facepalm and go "Not AGAIN." (partly a story design flaw in DA2, but I digress).

In summation, things HAVE to change. Now don't get me wrong, IN NO WAY do I support Anders' blowing up of the Kirkwall Chantry (the whole time I was thinking compromise was what we needed to see real improvement, then he goes and does THAT... seriously? How is THAT supposed to help?!), but I do attribute the amount of ill-winded magic to the proximity to the original "Black City intrusion" ritual that preceeded the first Blight. The Circle itself isn't a BAD idea, it was just poorly implimented. It SHOULD be a school that teaches a mage how to control his powers so he doesn't accidentally hurt someone, and how to resist the lure of Demons and shoddy magic. It SHOULDN'T be a place that imprisons them and expects them to be something they'll never be and them punishing them at every turn.

So: FIND THE COMMON GROUND, for Maker's sake. I'm sick of the "Us vs. Them" mentality on BOTH sides of a war that NO ONE NEEDS.