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[scootermcgaffin]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That is definitely something we have no real idea about yet, and the comment doesn't really address.

We'll see, I suppose.

We're definitely experimenting with what it means to have a more open level.  Finding some interesting things such as "give people a road, and they tend to follow it" and stuff like that.  Taking that and iterating on the level.  How can we encourage someone to maybe not follow the road (or at least make it clear they don't have to follow it).  Sometimes the road makes thematic sense, maybe we could do smaller roads but that doesn't always work.  At the same time we also don't want to take away from those that enjoy going off the beaten path.  If we effectively put arrows on the ground that say "there's something cool over there" they won't enjoy it as much.

If you work on your loot system, I think people will be more inclined to explore areas. I eventually stopped looking for things in DA:O because I didn't need more Elfroot or Deep Mushrooms or the occasional weapon that was worse than everything I already had equipped; similarly, in DA2 I stopped exploring because the five copper I'd get from selling those torn trousers or belt with worse stats than the 35 belts I already had in my inventory just didn't seem appealing. Give us a reason to stop following the road, and we will.

[upsettingshorts]

scootermcgaffin wrote...

If you work on your loot system, I think people will be more inclined to explore areas. I eventually stopped looking for things in DA:O because I didn't need more Elfroot or Deep Mushrooms or the occasional weapon that was worse than everything I already had equipped; similarly, in DA2 I stopped exploring because the five copper I'd get from selling those torn trousers or belt with worse stats than the 35 belts I already had in my inventory just didn't seem appealing. Give us a reason to stop following the road, and we will.

DA2 rewarded exploration by unlocking crafting assets.  

A good way to reward exploration would be, in a similar sense, to expand crafting beyond the bare-bones mechanic of DA2 into something more robust.  

That way we're looking for materials we need to make things that aren't gonna be sitting on the road waiting to be picked up.

[Hrungr]

Palipride47 wrote...

Hrungr wrote...

I liked the Deep Roads myself, though I get why some people might feel it's a bit of a slog. I wouldn't mind seeing even more variation in the architecture and landscape though.

The Fade though I do generally skip with a mod, but mostly because there's so much backtracking if you want to get all the upgrades.

I actually like the DA2 Deep Road better. It seemed more like "ancient crumbling, underground highway" (imo) with less "corridors" and "tunnels." It made DA2 Deeps Road way less grating (for me)

Least favorite for me is actually pre-Ostagar Korcari Wilds.

There are things I liked about the Deep Roads from both games. I liked the yawning caverns and grand structures in Origins, DA2 didn't really have that sense of openness. I did like the shiny new lyrium in DA2 and some of the designs in the ancient thaig. But they really, really need a better lighting engine (which they should get from Frostbite).

[rapscallioness]

I literally got stuck in the Fade the first time I played. It was a nightmare for me. I have a lousy sense of direction anyway. I'm constantly map mashing.

A lil panic rose up in me irl as hours later...I was still stuck in the Fade! *shivers* But considering the whole point was that the Warden was stuck in the Fade against their will--I found it to be quite effective in making me the player feel that way, too.

That said, I have no desire to go thru that again. Lol.

The Deep Roads I loved. The whole Orzammar and Deep Roads I loved. I had Oghren and Wynne w/ me one time, and they were bringing up the rear...while getting snookered.

I was shuffling along when I heard Wynne, "tee hee. can i get another glass of that ale?" and Oghren, "sure thing--haha. you're my kinda girl, Wynne." Or something like that.

I turned around like , what the...wha...you're getting snookered now? really? okay..well, i hope you're good and liquored up cuz there's a horde of darkspawn right around the corner waiting to rip our entrails out.

good times.

Modifié par rapscallioness, 20 octobre 2012 - 07:59 .

[Blackrising]

I don't really care for playing an elf or a dwarf, although I am disappointed I won't be able to play a big, strong, sexay lady Kossith. But I'm elated that there will be at least different backgrounds! I really liked the way ME 1 did it (although a bit more reaction from the NPCs would have been nice), even more than I liked DA:O's method, because it gave me the option of making up my own headcanon.

For example, my headcanon for my Earthborn FemShep is that she suffered more than one severe trauma and has abandonment issues due to her childhood on the streets of Earth. Which makes ME 2 and especially ME 3 so much more dramatic.

In Origins, my Warden's backstory was surely not set in stone, but family relationships were pretty rigid and it didn't give me very much room to play with as I please.

Long story short, I am beyong excited at these news.

[JellyBean28]

Palipride47 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That is definitely something we have no real idea about yet, and the comment doesn't really address.

We'll see, I suppose.

We're definitely experimenting with what it means to have a more open level.  Finding some interesting things such as "give people a road, and they tend to follow it" and stuff like that.  Taking that and iterating on the level.  How can we encourage someone to maybe not follow the road (or at least make it clear they don't have to follow it).  Sometimes the road makes thematic sense, maybe we could do smaller roads but that doesn't always work.  At the same time we also don't want to take away from those that enjoy going off the beaten path.  If we effectively put arrows on the ground that say "there's something cool over there" they won't enjoy it as much.

Less "linear" even if not fully "open world"? (if I am understanding correctly?)

Like. 

If that is what Mr. Schumacher is saying (and It sounds like it is), then I am incredibly happy about that.
I'm the type of player that likes to explore and doesn't want one linear path, but neither do I want an open world. I've never been a fan of them.
So hearing this makes me a happy gal . Keep experimenting away! I'm sure it will turn out well.

[Quicksilver26]

ok so i think this are anything like this hasn't talked about it here yet so here is a tweet from Cameron Lee on the imports...
(oh and just so we have all the Cameron Lee tweets on the expo in one place i'm putting them here)

{Cameron Lee @BioWare ‏@Cameron__Lee "how will you handle save game import?" Mark: we will bring choices across, we're investigating some ways without save imports}

{Cameron Lee @BioWare[/b] ‏@[/s]Cameron__Lee[/b]Forgot this one! 2nd question: will Flemeth be in DA3? Mike: it feels wrong to not have a "little" Flemeth in your game *grin*}

{Cameron Lee @BioWare[/b] ‏@[/s]Cameron__Lee[/b]Question: will we see all DA2 followers? Answer: you may see what happened to some

{Cameron Lee @BioWare[/b] ‏@[/s]Cameron__Lee[/b]David answering "backgrounds will be in DA3 even though you will be human, it's not playable but it does significant impact on the story"}

{Cameron Lee @BioWare[/b] ‏@[/s]Cameron__Lee[/b]Question: how much control will you have over your character... Mike "you will be human" #[/s]DA3[/b]}

Modifié par Quicksilver26, 20 octobre 2012 - 08:17 .

[Palipride47]

Hrungr wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Hrungr wrote...

I liked the Deep Roads myself, though I get why some people might feel it's a bit of a slog. I wouldn't mind seeing even more variation in the architecture and landscape though.

The Fade though I do generally skip with a mod, but mostly because there's so much backtracking if you want to get all the upgrades.

I actually like the DA2 Deep Road better. It seemed more like "ancient crumbling, underground highway" (imo) with less "corridors" and "tunnels." It made DA2 Deeps Road way less grating (for me)

Least favorite for me is actually pre-Ostagar Korcari Wilds.

There are things I liked about the Deep Roads from both games. I liked the yawning caverns and grand structures in Origins, DA2 didn't really have that sense of openness. I did like the shiny new lyrium in DA2 and some of the designs in the ancient thaig. But they really, really need a better lighting engine (which they should get from Frostbite).

Though it did seem that DA2 could have been much grander, with limitations. None of it felt grand. Sunermount especially seemed small and forgetful, kind of completly forgot I'm climbing a MOUNTAIN every three years, and its always to visit some demons <_< instead of a fun trip. 

[Palipride47]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...


We're definitely experimenting with what it means to have a more open level.  Finding some interesting things such as "give people a road, and they tend to follow it" and stuff like that.  Taking that and iterating on the level.  How can we encourage someone to maybe not follow the road (or at least make it clear they don't have to follow it).  Sometimes the road makes thematic sense, maybe we could do smaller roads but that doesn't always work.  At the same time we also don't want to take away from those that enjoy going off the beaten path.  If we effectively put arrows on the ground that say "there's something cool over there" they won't enjoy it as much.

More open level you mean having a more open area to explore?

For me that's not clear in your reply.

DA2 consisted only of roads on the map with the occasional open space. An open space like the Korian Wilds in DAO (although that was a road to but fellt more open) is what I hope you mean by this reply.




The fact that you had to walk the whole map to make it visible is what added for me to the exploration feel. As main quests will probably be marked, the ones who do not want to explore can go straight for the 'explanationpoint' and the ones who do want that can roam around the map to their liking.



The map for the wounded coast became really tedious for me, even in the first playthrough as it were really roads that could be walked. There was no real exploration that was not quest related. Caves were blocked if the quest was not activated, which is fine if they are specifically needed for them. But there were no caves/houses or areas that were accessible that were just there to be explored for the fun of it.

I made my DAO plot points always visible, and it STILL felt more open than DA2. 

[upsettingshorts]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...


We're definitely experimenting with what it means to have a more open level.  Finding some interesting things such as "give people a road, and they tend to follow it" and stuff like that.  Taking that and iterating on the level.  How can we encourage someone to maybe not follow the road (or at least make it clear they don't have to follow it).  Sometimes the road makes thematic sense, maybe we could do smaller roads but that doesn't always work.  At the same time we also don't want to take away from those that enjoy going off the beaten path.  If we effectively put arrows on the ground that say "there's something cool over there" they won't enjoy it as much.

More open level you mean having a more open area to explore?

For me that's not clear in your reply.

It shouldn't be assumed he's talking about either DAO or DA2's specific approach here, only the concept of level design in a broad sense.

[Hrungr]

Palipride47 wrote...

Hrungr wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Hrungr wrote...

I liked the Deep Roads myself, though I get why some people might feel it's a bit of a slog. I wouldn't mind seeing even more variation in the architecture and landscape though.

The Fade though I do generally skip with a mod, but mostly because there's so much backtracking if you want to get all the upgrades.

I actually like the DA2 Deep Road better. It seemed more like "ancient crumbling, underground highway" (imo) with less "corridors" and "tunnels." It made DA2 Deeps Road way less grating (for me)

Least favorite for me is actually pre-Ostagar Korcari Wilds.

There are things I liked about the Deep Roads from both games. I liked the yawning caverns and grand structures in Origins, DA2 didn't really have that sense of openness. I did like the shiny new lyrium in DA2 and some of the designs in the ancient thaig. But they really, really need a better lighting engine (which they should get from Frostbite).

Though it did seem that DA2 could have been much grander, with limitations. None of it felt grand. Sunermount especially seemed small and forgetful, kind of completly forgot I'm climbing a MOUNTAIN every three years, and its always to visit some demons <_< instead of a fun trip.

There were two things I liked about Sundermount. 1 - Green(ery). Maybe even just "color".  2 - The fact you could look down at the Dalish Camp, which is... pretty sad I agree, but at least gave some some tiny sense of distance on the "mountain".

Modifié par Hrungr, 20 octobre 2012 - 08:31 .

[upsettingshorts]

The implication of his statement does not convey a DA2-style approach. In DA2 you literally figuratively only had roads.

In his logic problem, he is talking about a hypothetical map that has roads but also has parts of the map that are not roads. In such situations, he says players still tend to follow roads anyway, so the challenge is to convince players to leave those roads (again implying that you can do this, unlike DA2) without being so obvious as to have huge metaphorical arrows pointing away from the road.

The issue is two fold: How to reward exploration, and also how to convey the idea that exploration will be rewarded to players who don't know this yet.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 octobre 2012 - 08:37 .

[rapscallioness]

Hey Allan btw uh, you know don't overthink it. Just make it what you guys feel is a good and righteous balance between linear and open world. Then throw the players in...we'll be fine. We'll figure it out.

If there's a road we take that we didn't need to take, we'll figure that out. Although, it wouldn't hurt to throw in a bit of choice loot for those that did walk all the way down to what may turn into a dead end.

As far as Sundermount and mountain climbing, there was this bit in dragons dogma--(not trying to throw around other games-but) where the PC was climbing this mountain and the wind was ferocious!

If stood still, my character would go sliding back, or even dangerously close to the edge. You had to trudge against that wind which only got worse the higher you went.

It was a very nice touch. And really made me feel like I was indeed climbing a mountain.

[upsettingshorts]

rapscallioness wrote...

Hey Allan btw uh, you know don't overthink it. Just make it what you guys feel is a good and righteous balance between linear and open world. Then throw the players in...we'll be fine. We'll figure it out.

If there's a road we take that we didn't need to take, we'll figure that out. Although, it wouldn't hurt to throw in a bit of choice loot for those that did walk all the way down to what may turn into a dead end.

I don't think that's true.

I think game designers, and level designers specifically, do a lot of thinking about how to make their levels enjoyable.  When we as gamers think a level is well done and engrossing it isn't just some happy accident.  

If we intuitively enjoy something, there's a fairly good chance someone somewhere made the conscious decision to make the map that way because he or she imagined the player on the other end.  Of course "what they feel is good and righteous" is how those calls are made, but thinking about the end user is very likely part of that call.  

[rapscallioness]

Awesome to hear about how the customization will be bigger than DAO...

[rapscallioness]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

Hey Allan btw uh, you know don't overthink it. Just make it what you guys feel is a good and righteous balance between linear and open world. Then throw the players in...we'll be fine. We'll figure it out.

If there's a road we take that we didn't need to take, we'll figure that out. Although, it wouldn't hurt to throw in a bit of choice loot for those that did walk all the way down to what may turn into a dead end.

I don't think that's true.

I think game designers, and level designers specifically, do a lot of thinking about how to make their levels enjoyable.  When we as gamers think a level is well done and engrossing it isn't just some happy accident.  

If we intuitively enjoy something, there's a fairly good chance someone somewhere made the conscious decision to make the map that way because he or she imagined the player on the other end.  Of course "what they feel is good and righteous" is how those calls are made, but thinking about the end user is very likely part of that call.  

I realize it's far from a happy accident. What I'm getting at is that they don't need to hold the players hand as much as they think. Allan said something about how to let the player know that there's a road, but they don't have to take it if they don't want to.

I feel like just put the road there, or cave or whatever it is and let the player choose whether or not they want to go that way.

Modifié par rapscallioness, 20 octobre 2012 - 08:55 .

[GloriousDame]

Hrungr wrote...

David answering "backgrounds will be in DA3 even though you will be human, it's not playable but it does significant impact on the story"

Previous protagonists might appear as NPCs.

I appreciate the time and effort being put in this game... I'm just beginning to doubt it'll be worth it.

The lack of choice in whether we can play as elf, dwarf, human, etc. is a HUGE blow to me.
I understand that there are resources that would used to make all these races available to us,
but BW/DA choosing the likes of MULTIPLAYER over THIS? That is wrong.

And to say that we will have background, but it won't be playable? Hah. That's dangerously close to ME;
the chosen background had very, very little effect on the story (need I remind you that BW told us our Shepard's background would have a big impact in the series but failed to deliver?). Not only this, but it also made me feel less connected to my Shepard's history than did my Cousalnd or my Mahariel's. Shifting toward idea like ME's is not a good choice- shifting BACK to Origins is where it's at, but this obviously isn't your plan.

So, in a way, we'll get Hawke #2, but on a greater scale. Great.

Modifié par ArinTheirinCousland, 20 octobre 2012 - 08:56 .

[upsettingshorts]

ArinTheirinCousland wrote...

I understand that there are resources that are used to make all these races available to us, 
but BW/DA choose the likes of MULTIPLAYER over THIS? That is wrong.

Not all zots are the same.  I can almost guarantee you there was never any point at which BioWare had to choose between a fixed race protagonist and multiplayer.

Fixed race vs. racial choice has a different set of pros and cons available to consider.  In the sense that, for example, if you want to have your protagonist's family matter in the way it did in DA2, that choice has consequences in terms of resources.  If you fix your race, you only need one family.  If you allow racial choice, you need as many families as you have racial options, or you can't do family as a big part of the story.  That's the kind of tradeoff they have to choose between, not "fixed protagonist or multiplayer?"

I should (edit) point out the differences in DAO.  In DAO you had racial chocie as well as origins.  This had consequences in terms of resources as well.  Each origin and race's impact on the narrative had to be minimized otherwise you'd start multiplying the amount of variation you'd need for any given situation by the number of possible combinations of options for each one.  That's why the impact of your race and origin during and after Ostagar was limited.  Hence Fergus disappears for pretty much the entire game, just to point out one example.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 octobre 2012 - 09:03 .

[Hrungr]

rapscallioness wrote...

Awesome to hear about how the customization will be bigger than DAO...

Good to hear, definitely.

Though being on a PC, customization has never really been a big issue. Within a week you're gonna have 100 face, hair, makeup, bust-size and eyelash mods regardless of what DA3 offers.

[rapscallioness]

If there are players that don't realize they Can go off road, one way to let them know is to have some enemies that spawn off road that you have to follow and fight for a bit.

Then maybe you discover something off road that leads to something else.