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The Dragon Age Twitter Thread


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#7151
Fast Jimmy

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But, I think, seen wholistically, it probably made sense in DA2 to give these things to one class and those things to the other. In the context of stuff like cross class combos and companion choice/party makeup, as well as whether it may have been more expensive or whatever.

I think that if a designer says, "We want classes to play really differently to each other, hence no DW warrior," it's easy to think it's a money/resources issue or whatever. But I wonder if it's as simple as diverting money to, or finding extra money for these things. If it's decided that there's no DW warrior early, for example, I'm guessing that would influence how other things worked around that, mostly in combat but also for companions etc. (Or it should, IMO, or the game would get weird.)


I wanted to add my own two cents here on this.

I'm tempted to take Laidlaw's statements at face value and say that the DW warrior, in and of itself, is a resource hog. Which makes sense - if you have combat animations for all single-weapon warriors, then adding in animations with two weapons in hand (when those two weapons aren't daggers) requires a whole different set of combat animations. It would, essentially, be the same amount of animations for a brand new class just for this one branch of the warrior.

That being said, if we wanted to look at class-specificity, dual wielding was incredibly easy to overpower. If memory serves me correctly, by level 12, you could make a DW warrior with two full swords that could have magical stat boosts. By level 15, both swords could be used with no penalty at all. The same could happen with an Arcane Warrior - you could get the best buff spells for fighting at a relatively low level and have a super-enchanted warrior that could also throw out an occasional attack or healing spell.

In addition, if you have the combat experience of each class blend into each other, then you are forced to give other ways to differentiate them, such as non-combat skills. DA:O saw a rogue's branch of traps, lock picking and sneaking that gave them worth. Sadly these were underutilized in DA:O and subsequently scrapped in DA2. Likely due to the cost of implementing them when they could, instead, just make each class more defined in combat and gain class importance there.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 04 juin 2013 - 11:58 .


#7152
Yrkoon

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Firky wrote...


I was vaguely worrying a few pages back about the game being announced etc. I think it's because, when a designer says, "There's no overhead camera because we wanted you to get closer to the action," I think that's the truth. (I know, I'm a goody-to-shoes to the death.) So, I played DA2 closer in, got used to the camera and did enjoy some of the animations etc. (I'd still prefer the higher view, but gee, the somersaulting was something.)

Ugh.... this is a very sore subject for me.  (and is that the actual reason they cited for removing the overhead camera?   LOL if it is.)

It's called the *tactical* camera for a reason.  And all removing it did was make things like positioning and aiming AOE spells much harder to do.   And for me, that left a really bad taste in my mouth.   I haven't played DA2 in... IDK,  close to two years now,  but  one of the few things I still remember vividly  about that game is  how I   constantly fought with that stupid  camera from the prologue to the credits, as if it was a straight-jacket I was trying to get out of.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 juin 2013 - 12:10 .


#7153
Fast Jimmy

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^

I think if they had the option to deselect any party member at all, which brought you out to a tactical camera overview, then let you get "up close and in the action" if you selected a particular character in a manner outside of giving commands, this could be a good balance.

I'd really doubt they would keep the tactical camera out after all of the flak they received for taking it out in DA2. But who knows?

#7154
Firky

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Yrkoon wrote...
Ugh.... this is a very sore point for me.  (and is that the actual reason they cited for removing the overhead camera?   LOL if it is.)


Well, it was in an interview with a designer I had published and it was said to me, face to face. I haven't looked it up but I think that's pretty much word for word. (I have a freakishly good memory, but I'll go digging if you like, I s'pose. Might take me a while. Print, not online.)

Honestly, in the context of the discussion it made sense to me, and I'm pretty used to talking to PR people who you do sometimes have to take with a grain of salt. In general, talking with designers is different because you get a much more comprehensive picture of the why.

(PS. I'm not previewing/reviewing DA3. I'm just a fan these days. I acquired some conflicts of interest; friendly conversations with people and such, while mucking around with the toolset after DA2.)

Like I said, I 'd prefer the overhead view myself. I played all of Origins entirely scrolled out. I really couldn't care less about looking at things more closely. I like the overhead view, but I did get used to DA2, at the same time.

I think something always gets lost in translation when it simply comes down to design decisions. I wish it more like, this is what we're doing, this is why we're doing it and this is how we're working around it. To me, "we wanted you to get closer to the action," is like, "well, this is what and how and it's more consistent with other aspects of our overall vision, like it or lump it," - it leaves out the why (which maybe not really our business) and it is closer to accurate than something like, "Modern audiences enjoy first person perspective games or close over the shoulder view," which is what I'd expect from general PR. (; not a lot of info to work with)

But who knows? Seems like they're not intending to go down the super-hype route, this time. They might totally surprise us all. That'd be cool.

PS. I really can't see them bringing the overhead camera back. Everything seems to be moving towards the "play one character" thing to me - overtly or otherwise. But, very happy to be proven wrong.

Edit: And I think I probably just proved my own point by only really remembering the guts of the quote during the discussion. There was probably more to the quote, like impact of the animations, or stylistic something or other, reactive combat? I don't know. Within the entire conversation which spanned everything from cool downs to character clothing etc, made sense, is what I'm saying.

Modifié par Firky, 04 juin 2013 - 12:45 .


#7155
ElitePinecone

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New tweet from, of all people, the project lead for the next Mass Effect:

@YanickRRoy:
BioWare's focus is on DA3 at E3 this year. And what the team has to show is really nice!

#7156
Yrkoon

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Firky wrote...

PS. I really can't see them bringing the overhead camera back. Everything seems to be moving towards the "play one character" thing to me - overtly or otherwise. But, very happy to be proven wrong.

Well, in one of the "Cons" last year  (New York Comic con?)    Mike Laidlaw was teasing the "next big thing"  (DA3, Obviously), and   he had a chalk board with him.  And he drew up a football-like  game plan to try and illustrate just how "tactical"  DA3's combat was going to be.     But if we're going to be stuck with some pathetic  over-the shoulder POV camera, then his sales pitch  is nothing more than nonsense.    Can't be done the way he described it.  The camera would be WAY too restrictive. 

But yes, I suppose I understand the  vital need to  make sure   the player can  see  Merril's  nose hairs  and "cute facial expressions" during a pitched battle against  a half dozen  street thugs.  I just don't understand why  they think  you can't  zoom in, at will,  and do precicely that with DA:O's glorious tactical camera.   You certainly CAN.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 juin 2013 - 01:08 .


#7157
andar91

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For the record, I don't find the lack of an overhead camera restrictive for tactical play. You're free to disagree, but not everybody necessarily thinks that way. It would certainly nice to have it for more options, particularly for the people who like it, but I didn't use it myself.

#7158
Fast Jimmy

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ElitePinecone wrote...

New tweet from, of all people, the project lead for the next Mass Effect:

@YanickRRoy:
BioWare's focus is on DA3 at E3 this year. And what the team has to show is really nice!


Hmmmm. I wonder if that will mean we will not see any ME content and E3 will be solely and completely DA3? 

That could be cool. Especially since it was Tweeted there were four videos?

#7159
Firky

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Yrkoon wrote...
But if we're going to be stuck with some pathetic  over-the shoulder POV camera, then his sales pitch  is nothing more than nonsense.    Can't be done the way he described it.  The camera would be WAY too restrictive. 


Well, a drawing of a football pitch sounds positive right? (I don't think I've seen whatever that was.)

I just pictured, not so much a single POV or OS camera, more that combat might be more optimised for one party member at a time. It's a vague impression, mostly based on DA2, more than anything else. Could be totally incorrect.

#7160
ElitePinecone

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

New tweet from, of all people, the project lead for the next Mass Effect:

@YanickRRoy:
BioWare's focus is on DA3 at E3 this year. And what the team has to show is really nice!


Hmmmm. I wonder if that will mean we will not see any ME content and E3 will be solely and completely DA3? 

That could be cool. Especially since it was Tweeted there were four videos?


At least one of those videos was for Command & Conquer, since Chase Boyajian does work for a lot of EA studios, not just Bioware. It's hard to tell whether it's four videos for four different games, or if one game has more than one video, etc. 

#7161
Fast Jimmy

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Firky wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
But if we're going to be stuck with some pathetic  over-the shoulder POV camera, then his sales pitch  is nothing more than nonsense.    Can't be done the way he described it.  The camera would be WAY too restrictive. 


Well, a drawing of a football pitch sounds positive right? (I don't think I've seen whatever that was.)

I just pictured, not so much a single POV or OS camera, more that combat might be more optimised for one party member at a time. It's a vague impression, mostly based on DA2, more than anything else. Could be totally incorrect.


If they went this route, then they just would need to fully embrace the Mass Effect/FPS design and only let us control the protag, period and only giving orders to the rest of the party. Going halfway between the two designs (a party driven RPG combat system that downplays ways for you to manage your party outside of the view of one character) is a bad choice that pleases no one.

That being said, this is the Twitter thread, not the DA3 combat thread. While making comments on dev comments is fine, I think if this is going to become a full discussion, it needs to move to its own thread. 

#7162
Firky

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I miss the pictures of gooses.

(I just have a bee of worriment +2 in my bonnet about how they're going to reveal it.)

(I think, in many ways, DA2's system was halfway in between the two designs - what with the tactics (menu) etc. But sure, when that thread pops up again I'll head there.)

#7163
Guest_BarbarianBarbie_*

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ElitePinecone wrote...

New tweet from, of all people, the project lead for the next Mass Effect:

@YanickRRoy:
BioWare's focus is on DA3 at E3 this year. And what the team has to show is really nice!


Best tweet to date, by far. 

Modifié par discosuperfly, 04 juin 2013 - 06:32 .


#7164
Either.Ardrey

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Yrkoon wrote...

Firky wrote...

PS. I really can't see them bringing the overhead camera back. Everything seems to be moving towards the "play one character" thing to me - overtly or otherwise. But, very happy to be proven wrong.

Well, in one of the "Cons" last year  (New York Comic con?)    Mike Laidlaw was teasing the "next big thing"  (DA3, Obviously), and   he had a chalk board with him.  And he drew up a football-like  game plan to try and illustrate just how "tactical"  DA3's combat was going to be.     But if we're going to be stuck with some pathetic  over-the shoulder POV camera, then his sales pitch  is nothing more than nonsense.    Can't be done the way he described it.  The camera would be WAY too restrictive. 

But yes, I suppose I understand the  vital need to  make sure   the player can  see  Merril's  nose hairs  and "cute facial expressions" during a pitched battle against  a half dozen  street thugs.  I just don't understand why  they think  you can't  zoom in, at will,  and do precicely that with DA:O's glorious tactical camera.   You certainly CAN.

I never understood people's problem with the "no tactical camera." Were they playing a different game, because the tactical view in DA2 worked well enough for me. I could place AoE attacks with no problems. The only difference between 1 and 2 was the extent to which you can zoom out, but both had plenty of space, since DAO gave us way more than we needed. You can zoom in and out, at will, in DA2 just fine. Maybe the DA2 camera could have used a little more in the zoom out portion, but there's no need to make it as crazy as DAO where you can see an enemy a half mile away.

#7165
Lobos1988

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I think what made DA special and for me even superior to some other RPGs is that you could actually BE close to the action without having to endure bad graphics

#7166
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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ElitePinecone wrote...

New tweet from, of all people, the project lead for the next Mass Effect:

@YanickRRoy:
BioWare's focus is on DA3 at E3 this year. And what the team has to show is really nice!


Good...good...

This gives me hope that a CGI trailer isn't all they're going to show.

#7167
Scarlet Rabbi

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ElitePinecone wrote...

New tweet from, of all people, the project lead for the next Mass Effect:

@YanickRRoy:
BioWare's focus is on DA3 at E3 this year. And what the team has to show is really nice!


This is excellent news. Dragon Age has always got the younger brother treatment in comparison to Mass Effect, which has always been disapointing to me as I view Dragon Age as highly superior to Mass Effect in every way, save for graphics.

Though I'd like Mike Laidlaw to be present, I'll take what I can get. I can't wait, but I'll have to.

Modifié par Scarlet Rabbi, 04 juin 2013 - 07:43 .


#7168
Steppenwolf

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Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

This is excellent news. Dragon Age has always got the younger brother treatment in comparison to Mass Effect, which has always been disapointing to me as I view Dragon Age as highly superior to Mass Effect in every way sans graphics.


A man after my own heart.

#7169
ElitePinecone

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Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

New tweet from, of all people, the project lead for the next Mass Effect:

@YanickRRoy:
BioWare's focus is on DA3 at E3 this year. And what the team has to show is really nice!


This is excellent news. Dragon Age has always got the younger brother treatment in comparison to Mass Effect, which has always been disapointing to me as I view Dragon Age as highly superior to Mass Effect in every way sans graphics.

Though I'd like Mike Laidlaw to be present, I'll take what I can get. I can't wait, but I'll have to.


From some dev hinting over the past few months, it looks like they can put the full spotlight on Dragon Age because both the next Mass Effect and Casey Hudson's new IP are still fairly early on in development. 

The project lead (or it might've been the Montreal studio head) for the next Mass Effect said we shouldn't expect to hear much about the game for a year or more (though that was a fair while ago, now), which gives plenty of room for Dragon Age to get a long period of attention - especially with post-release content, etc. 

Unless they do something crazy like reveal the new IP at E3, or something. 

#7170
BioFan (Official)

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WE HAVE ONE WEEK LEFT PEOPLE!!!!


7 days 13 pages

#7171
Little Princess Peach

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Ericander77 wrote...

WE HAVE ONE WEEK LEFT PEOPLE!!!!


7 days 13 pages

wow I can;t wait to see one image of some random generic char just kidding
I'm sure the team have put alot of effort in what ever it is they have planned for next week

#7172
JerHopp

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So, anyone gonna watch the monday livestream? I know I will.

#7173
BioFan (Official)

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Dual-wield Warrior was always an afterthought in Dragon Age: Origins (or, technically, the entire rogue class was) and I didn't mind the fact that Archery and Dual Wield was associated to rogue in the sequel, it gave them more room to expand and create moves with an identity.

Assuming they'd reintroduce dual wield warrior, I wouldn't mind provided it's identity remains far away from the rogue class and both feel very distinct. Something I'm not too afraid of and I'd understand if they don't have the time to implement.



They could always do like a single blade weilding warrior, like a lancer or something. And rouge could have different weapons like thorwing knifes, or something. 

#7174
Little Princess Peach

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I'm gonna hold the hype train until they show us something, if my expectations are low and they show amazing stuff I will even consider pre ordering the blasted game

#7175
BioFan (Official)

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JerHopp wrote...

So, anyone gonna watch the monday livestream? I know I will.



WHAT? WHEN? WHY? HOW? WHERE?  :blink:

Modifié par Ericander77, 04 juin 2013 - 06:47 .