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[Aremce]

I'm sorry ... I just can't help but add this to the "pretty", "white" and whatnot mods topic ...

 

[Steppenwolf]

Maybe I'm missing something.
I can understand that this is a sensitive subject because it deals with race, but at the same time people change characters' sex (gender-bender fan art), sexuality (mods to make Alistair homosexual) and overall appearance (mods to make Aveline 'sexy') and people barely bat an eye.

The difference is intent. Those alternate gender things are done for fun. Making a character bisexual so as to romance them shows that you like that character a great deal. Changing a few design aspects like part of an outfit is just artistic expression. Changing a character's race and saying that you fixed BioWare's mistake is a very different thing. The rationale is racism. The intent was to make Vivienne white because being black isn't as good to this "artist."

[upsettingshorts]

Don´t get me wrong, this annoys me as much as it annoys you, but would your reaction be the same if it was a white character (Anders for example) who would be made black by some fanartist/modder?

 

No it wouldn't.  Let me give you one of my favorite historical examples:  Cleopatra.

 

There's a lot of effort, on a lot of fronts, from a lot of interests, to reclaim Cleopatra as a black woman.  For her association with the continent of Africa, for being a woman with power and agency, and a variety of other reasons.  Trouble is she was Greek, a descendant of the Ptolemaic dynasty that ruled Egypt following the death of Alexander the Great.  Her entire family tree is well documented. 

 

Should I be annoyed, or even offended, by images or narratives of black Cleopatra?  Historically speaking I could object for reasons stated above, but what would I accomplish by doing so?  I'd be asserting the primacy of the historical record over the desire for people of all colors to see themselves in characters, to see themselves in history (especially as something other than slaves), to be inspired by stories of people that look like them the same way I very easily can be.  The facts about Cleopatra, or what Anders looks like in the vanilla game (in your example) will have not changed and will always be there.  But in media, especially fantasy media like Dragon Age, that is notoriously lacking in people of color (among other appalling failures in diversity) it would be wrong, and in some ways, cruel, of me to insist that the ephemeral "integrity" of a work is worth more than representation.  Or worth more than fixing a lack of it.

 

What makes this different than changing a black character into a white one, or a gay character into a straight one, is history.  Past is prologue.  It's what makes the comparison described above a false equivalence.  Because it implicitly asks me to believe that all things are equal, and they are yet to be even close to equal.

[XMissWooX]

I don't really see how they're not equivalent: they each are changing a fundamental aspect of the character (changing their intended portrayal) to make them more appealing to user.
Yes, making a black character white is disrespectful, but making a man become a woman, or making a woman walk around in a chain mail bikini is also disrespectful. Especially since they deal with sexism, sexuality and gender-identification, which are also real-life issues, just as racism is.

[Steppenwolf]

CONTEXT exists, Miss Woo, and it is important.

[XMissWooX]

CONTEXT exists, Miss Woo, and it is important.

My point exactly.
People have been oppressed and discriminated against for many years based on their race, age, gender, sexuality, class, religion, disability, political alignment, etc. Shouldn't we be fighting all of those biases?

[upsettingshorts]

My point exactly.
People have been oppressed and discriminated against for many years based on their race, age, gender, sexuality, class, religion, disability, political alignment, etc. Shouldn't we be fighting all of those biases?

 

We are.  But the subject at hand is Vivienne being whitewashed.

[agonis]

No it wouldn't.  Let me give you one of my favorite historical examples:  Cleopatra.

 

There's a lot of effort, on a lot of fronts, from a lot of interests, to "reclaim" Cleopatra as a black woman.  For her association with the continent of Africa, for being a woman with power and agency, and a variety of other reasons.  Trouble is she was Greek, a descendant of the Ptolemaic dynasty that ruled Egypt following the death of Alexander the Great.  Her entire family tree is well documented. 

 

Should I be annoyed, or even offended, by images or narratives of black Cleopatra?  Historically speaking I could object for reasons stated above, but what would I accomplish by doing so?  I'd be asserting the primacy of the historical record over the desire for people of all colors to see themselves in characters, to see themselves in history (especially as something other than slaves), to be inspired by stories of people that look like them the same way I very easily can be.  The facts about Cleopatra, or what Anders looks like in the vanilla game (in your example) will have not changed and will always be there.  But in media, especially fantasy media like Dragon Age, that is notoriously lacking in people of color (among other appalling failures in diversity) it would be wrong, and in some ways, cruel, of me to insist that the ephemeral "integrity" of a work is worth more than representation.  Or worth more than fixing a lack of it.

 

What makes this different than changing a black character into a white one, or a gay character into a straight one, is history.  Past is prologue.  It's what makes the comparison described above a false equivalence.  Because it implicitly asks me to believe that all things are equal, and they are yet to be even close to equal.

 

Truth is less important than history?

 

There is a nice book of Terry Pratchett where one policeman tries to solve a murder but exludes everyone from a diplomatic fraction as a suspect because they are foreigners and there is racism... till one of them foreigners tells him his method is bull+++ because there are good and evil people everywhere and one could be a homicidal ******* and a foreigner.

 

I´m against racism, don´t get me wrong, but I´m also against entitelment for no reason than history. I can see that craving for something grater but what is it worth if it´s not real? What kind of argument would that be in a discussion? "Cleopatra be black because I feel better that way."?

 

And I would like some diversity in games. I enjoyed playing AC4 where there are people of every colour (well no asians) in every town, english and spanish is spoken without translation (I play German) but still... you get to be captain because your black mate doesn´t believe the crew will accept him because of their racism. Otherwise he would take that ship and Edward could go to hell.

[KR96]

We are.  But the subject at hand is Vivienne being whitewashed.

 

Which I think deserves no more attention as it is repulsive and should not even have the honour of being part of a discussion held by a passionate community who understand that such things are under no circumstance acceptable.  

[upsettingshorts]

I´m against racism, don´t get me wrong, but I´m also against entitelment for no reason than history. I can see that craving for something grater but what is it worth if it´s not real?

 

What it's worth is not for me to decide. 

 

Clearly, it's worth something.

 

The objections to white Vivienne are not merely hypothetical, people wondering aloud whether such a thing is bad, but real complaints from real people of color, and their friends who echo their objections.

 

Furthermore, I find it impossible to accept that anyone who could state, "I´m against racism, don´t get me wrong, but I´m also against entitelment for no reason than history" understands either history or entitlement.

[Kallimachus]

Here's a difference for you: Without turning someone gay in Baldur's Gate 2 (just as an example), THERE ARE NO GAYS IN BG2.

 

Seriously, do you also wonder why there is no Straight Pride Day, or White History Month, or International Men Day?

[XMissWooX]

We are.  But the subject at hand is Vivienne being whitewashed.

And that's fine. But my point was that I didn't understand why other forms of bias aren't so vehemently opposed.
I realise that it was actually very off-topic but I was just curious about this and it seemed like a good time to ask.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

This thread is drifting away from "DAI Twitter thead" folks.  The mods will notice before long.  Just saying...

[upsettingshorts]

This thread is drifting away from "DAI Twitter thead" folks.  The mods will notice before long.  Just saying...

 

Would it not be on-topic to discuss the latest quotes from Twitter at the very least until new ones are posted?  I'm new to this version of the Twitter thread.

 

 

And that's fine. But my point was that I didn't understand why other forms of bias aren't so vehemently opposed.
I realise that it was actually very off-topic but I was just curious about this and it seemed like a good time to ask.

 

Those issues often are.  Though not always from the same people, or at the same time.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Would it not be on-topic to discuss the latest quotes from Twitter at the very least until new ones are posted?  I'm new to this version of the Twitter thread.

 

 

Feels more like a race thread to me at this point, but YMMV.

[thats1evildude]

This is the one I saw.

Ironically, if the artist had said this was a fanart of Empress Celene, it would be quite good. But that this is supposed to be Vivienne ... WTF, dude?

[agonis]

Here's a difference for you: Without turning someone gay in Baldur's Gate 2 (just as an example), THERE ARE NO GAYS IN BG2.

 

Seriously, do you also wonder why there is no Straight Pride Day, or White History Month, or International Men Day?

It would be great if there where days like that.

 

Yesterday was the International womans day. I´m a woman, i did´t celabrate it. Why? Because there is not International Men Day, which either means there is no nead for a Men Day for some reason or... some ugly part of me thinks... every other day is an International Men Day...

 

The Moment there will be an International Men Day I will start celebrating the Women Day. Same goes for the other two days you mentioned.

 

(But that´s just me. In a heated conversation I tend to take the part of the more unloved side just to show there is some truth in some arguments. Must be kind of masochistic, I believe.)

[upsettingshorts]

Yeah, the problem is that every day is international men's day, and every month is white history month.  Notice how I didn't put the word "other" before either of those.  This is one of those things that a deeper appreciation of history doesn't erase, but considerably reinforces.  It's easier to assume that the lack of a thing like white history month represents an injustice, when the sheer weight of evidence demonstrating the total redundancy of such a concept is not on one's mind.  In future, I would be careful to so easily take the opposite side as a matter of habit.  Like the original Devil's Advocate - employed at the behest of the Vatican - it is best often done by invitation only.
 
But RinpocheSchnozberry is correct that we are potentially veering off-topic.  As a consequence this'll be the last word I have on the subject in this thread for some time.

[agonis]

Yeah, you are right. would be a shame not tho hit the 2000 pages mark. This thread has entertained me since... August? September?...

[Corday]

And that's fine. But my point was that I didn't understand why other forms of bias aren't so vehemently opposed.
I realise that it was actually very off-topic but I was just curious about this and it seemed like a good time to ask.

 

You mentioned sexism in your list, and I just have to point out that it isn't mutually exclusive from racism. For example, black women face issues of sexism that are specific towards black women. Problems of sexism, as you mentioned, are intersectional. 

[Kallimachus]

It would be great if there where days like that.

 

Yesterday was the International womans day. I´m a woman, i did´t celabrate it. Why? Because there is not International Men Day, which either means there is no nead for a Men Day for some reason or... some ugly part of me thinks... every other day is an International Men Day...

 

The Moment there will be an International Men Day I will start celebrating the Women Day. Same goes for the other two days you mentioned.

 

(But that´s just me. In a heated conversation I tend to take the part of the more unloved side just to show there is some truth in some arguments. Must be kind of masochistic, I believe.)

 

For a second there, when I read this post I thought I was transported to a parallel universe....

 

 

Every day IS Straight/White/Men day. If you think that is an ugly thought, then you live in an ugly world. To say that Straight White Men are the "unloved side" is to live in a place so far removed from reality (at least THIS reality) as to boggle the mind....

[Lady Sif]

Aidan Scanlan@aidanscanlan: Sorry little Nug, that was an accident. #DAI