279 réponses à ce sujet

[rpgfan321]

With Frostbite powering the game, ... I'm going to need a beefier graphics card. In fact I need to build another gaming computer! X(

... won't be a launch day buy for sure..

[ElitePinecone]

John Epler wrote...
As much as I've argued for it, you will likely never fight a dragon from the cockpit of an F-35.

Very excited by the new engine possibilities though, the lighting in particular looks like it has a lot more shiny opportunities to do shiny things like shine. 

I'm wondering if the textures and general graphical look of the game will get an update along with the physics/lighting engines, since someone said you might be importing a lot of assets from DA2?

[twincast]

tmp7704 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Realistic aesthetics tend to look dated as time passes. 

Stylized art holds up much better.

I'd argue the particular screenshots included there don't quite make this point -- instead, they demonstrate that 2d graphics can look much better than early 3d, and that a 3d game can look better than another published two years earlier, or more.

Current 3d graphics reach the point where fidelity is high enough the games aren't likely too look very outdated couple years down the road (the examples you post are over 10 years old) ... and even if they did, that's minor concern for games which get bulk of their sales in first few months after the release. It's not a MMO that has to be built with intention to last for long years, because that's how long it's supposed to be bringing in revenue.

This. <3+10

I have nothing against stylized graphics in a variety of games, frankly love them most of the time, but I'm really tired of that faulty argument.

[King Cousland]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

King Cousland wrote...

If I could ask, why is that you guys are resistant to having "realistic" aesthtics (form what I've inferred you're sticking with DA II's art style)?

Realistic aesthetics tend to look dated as time passes.

[img]http://src.sencha.io/http://www.thunderboltgames.com/s/reviews/n64/goldeneye_4.jpg[/img]

Stylized art holds up much better.

[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LHmPZAIPzXI/UBNns9-hsrI/AAAAAAAAAkQ/ZZkyJ4SDkjw/s1600/diablo2_diablo.jpg[/img]
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8yvl28sNY_E/T4BPtgALSoI/AAAAAAAANI0/n2FrRJ_NacQ/s1600/using+mirror+shield+reflect+majora%27s+mask+beam.jpg[/img]

As for DA2's art style... it isn't really that stylized either. I kind of wish it was.

While I wouldn't question your knowledge of game mechanics, I agree with what tmp7704 touched on. Can we really compare visuals from over a decade ago with how games like BF3 look? I certainly wouldn't have played the above games even when first released and remarked on how realistic they looked. I would do that with BF3 however, and it's unlikely that - in a decade's time - I'll view those aesthetics as outdated and unrealistic, since we've (IMO) reached a point where no matter what graphical advancements are made, today's top of the range visuals will always be seen as pretty realistic. 

[LolaLei]

Whatever art style they go with, I think it'll look pretty.

[jkflipflopDAO]

This is really cool.

Will you be targetting the PS4/xbox720 tech level with this? You can do some really amazing things when you're not constrained to 6 year old technology. Tesselate the LOD engine. Eliminate loading screens. Make the executable 64-bit only and actually use some RAM!

If you're still running a 32 bit operating system, your rig is obsolete. It's time for an upgrade.

Modifié par jkflipflopDAO, 19 septembre 2012 - 09:24 .

[hoorayforicecream]

King Cousland wrote...

While I wouldn't question your knowledge of game mechanics, I agree with what tmp7704 touched on. Can we really compare visuals from over a decade ago with how games like BF3 look? I certainly wouldn't have played the above games even when first released and remarked on how realistic they looked. I would do that with BF3 however, and it's unlikely that - in a decade's time - I'll view those aesthetics as outdated and unrealistic, since we've (IMO) reached a point where no matter what graphical advancements are made, today's top of the range visuals will always be seen as pretty realistic. 

I disagree. Every generation, people have said that the cutting edge is super duper realistic, and that they'll never look outdated.

10 years ago, real-time cloth physics was beyond us. Today, we've got cloth that's a lot better, but still has a long way to go. Similarly, hair has a long way to go. Skin still tends to look waxy. We've only just begun to scratch the surface of HDR lighting, shadowing, and reflections. Even with today's technology we have a hard time modeling fluid dynamics in real time, getting true realistic water, getting realistic motion, etc. There's still plenty of clipping problems, animation problems, and weather effects that don't really behave the way weather should. We accept them because we accept that these are current limitations of technology. 

The stuff that we see right now that looks super duper realistic right now will look dated in ten years. I guarantee it.

[Solmanian]

I'd love to see BF3 graphic qaulity and fidelity in rpg (frankly, skyrim didn't realy use the engine to it's fullest).

[Allan Schumacher]

I disagree. Every generation, people have said that the cutting edge is super duper realistic, and that they'll never look outdated.

It used to be an annual thing for me to say "Graphics can't get any better than this" as I was continuously blown away.

[bleetman]

tmp7704 wrote...

That's what i'd expect too, as it was handy approach. On the other hand since they're supposedly looking into Skyrim and such, they just might go for that 'realtime' approach to daycycle, now that their new game engine allows it.

(edit to add quote, thread moves fast)

...

IT'S YOU.

YOU'RE ALIVE.

/parade

[axl99]

People are doing new things to engines while others are making new ones as we speak. There are tech demos every year that show just how far we've progressed. Technically it's a few years ahead of us because it's not optimized for general/practical use.

[Xewaka]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I disagree. Every generation, people have said that the cutting edge is super duper realistic, and that they'll never look outdated.

It used to be an annual thing for me to say "Graphics can't get any better than this" as I was continuously blown away.

Whereas Monkey Island still looks as good as it did. This isn't even nostalgia, I replayed it a year ago and it still looked good.

[hoorayforicecream]

Xewaka wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I disagree. Every generation, people have said that the cutting edge is super duper realistic, and that they'll never look outdated.

It used to be an annual thing for me to say "Graphics can't get any better than this" as I was continuously blown away.

Whereas Monkey Island still looks as good as it did. This isn't even nostalgia, I replayed it a year ago and it still looked good.

Stylized vs realistic.

[Wynne]

John Epler wrote...

Engines don't really have a lot to do with the kind of game that's being made. Engines handle a lot of things behind the scenes - the example of visuals was already used, but it's more than that. Engines can handle how animations are handled, how data is stored and accessed, how assets are treated. Certainly, Frostbite 2 has, thus far, been primarily used for FPSes, but there's a lot of stuff it does that is simply going to give us the ability to do a lot more than we have previously - not just graphically.

That is good to hear. I must admit, I was rather perplexed about the choice to use Frostbite 2 at first, but what you said set me at ease. Thank you. 

[Xewaka]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I disagree. Every generation, people have said that the cutting edge is super duper realistic, and that they'll never look outdated.

It used to be an annual thing for me to say "Graphics can't get any better than this" as I was continuously blown away.

Whereas Monkey Island still looks as good as it did. This isn't even nostalgia, I replayed it a year ago and it still looked good.

Stylized vs realistic.

Indeed.

[tmp7704]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I disagree. Every generation, people have said that the cutting edge is super duper realistic, and that they'll never look outdated.

That is a slightly different argument from the one i was making -- i was speaking in quite shorter term of 2-3 years, because that's what makes financial sense to take into account.

When we take into account this sort of timeframe, then current advancements don't appear quick/large enough to result in some drastical fidelity difference -- to bring some perspective, games like Heavy Rain, Yakuza 3 or Mafia II are by now two years old. I'd argue their graphics still hold up well.

Will this stuff look dated ten years from now? No doubt, but no one reasonable is making their games with serious intention of making big buck from sales ten years down the road. So whether the stuff is going to look very outdated or just 'somewhat outdated' (stylization may help, but it won't prevent the game from looking old entirely; that Zelda screenshot still looks awful, e.g. compared to today's "stylized" games) ... is very much "and that matters how?" kind of issue, which shouldn't imo drive the design of game visuals in the manner it's suggested it does.

edit: regarding specifically Monkey Island, this is actually example that even stylized games don't fully stand the test of time. Otherwise why would the makers bother to completely redo the graphics for the Special Edition relaunch?

Modifié par tmp7704, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:39 .

[Galactus_the_Devourer]

Scared about my computer. Other than that....

[hoorayforicecream]

tmp7704 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I disagree. Every generation, people have said that the cutting edge is super duper realistic, and that they'll never look outdated.

That is a slightly different argument from the one i was making -- i was speaking in quite shorter term of 2-3 years, because that's what makes financial sense to take into account.

Not everything is financially motivated. Somebody asked why someone would choose stylized over realistic; I merely gave one reason why an art director might make that decision and provided some evidence. There are some other stylized games from the same year (2000) that still look fantastic to me... I probably should have used a shot from Jet Set Radio instead.



In any case, I wasn't responding to you because I wasn't quoting you. If I was to respond to your comments, especially about why they chose to switch engines, I'd hazard to guess that the engineers probably looked over the list of big technical features that they were aiming to get into DA3, did estimates on how long it would take to make them work on the old Eclipse engine, and compared it to estimates on how much work it would take to switch along with the low-hanging fruit Frostbite provides practically out of the box, factored in estimates for support from DICE, and looked over the systems in place. I guess that they weighed the two, and chose frostbite.

Given that neither you nor I know what the feature list is, what sort of assumptions the eclipse engine makes, or what the inner workings of frostbite are... I'd say "let them do their thing and not question it." Maybe I'm wrong and their programmers really didn't bother to think about the effect of switching animation systems, but I seriously doubt it. From what I know of Bioware's engineers, they're pretty sharp.

edit: regarding specifically Monkey Island, this is actually example that even stylized games don't fully stand the test of time. Otherwise why would the makers bother to completely redo the graphics for the Special Edition relaunch?

I never said that stylized art was inviolate, I just said it stood up better. Yar's Revenge and Missile Command were great games, but I don't think that a remake of either would stick to the same blocky pixelated graphics just for nostalgia's sake.

They did the same thing with Street Fighter 2: HD Remix, but the reception was pretty mixed. Casual fans enjoyed the new graphics, but many of the hardcore fighting game players still prefer the old sprites. Tournaments are still played with old sprites.

http://t3.gstatic.co...PSyQYxPkf2Ducmg

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 19 septembre 2012 - 11:02 .

[tmp7704]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Given that neither you nor I know what the feature list is, what sort of assumptions the eclipse engine makes, or what the inner workings of frostbite are... I'd say "let them do their thing and not question it." Maybe I'm wrong and their programmers really didn't bother to think about the effect of switching animation systems, but I seriously doubt it. From what I know of Bioware's engineers, they're pretty sharp.

Certainly, i don't think anyone is really questioning what BioWare is doing. Even if just because we have absolutely no idea yet what it is they are actually doing

It will be interesting to see the first screenshots, when they get revealed. One possibility (suggested by earlier comment) would be simple import of existing DA2 models into new engine. I'm curious how that look would mix with Frostbite lighting system. On the other hand they might decide to do some changes while at it , and they have lot of room for how far these could go... but well, really, probably no point in speculating.

[snfonseka]

Frostbite 2 - Yea!

[ThisIsZad]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...

FORSTBITE2 EVERYTHING!

Frostbite 2 all the games!

FORSTBITE2 BiG

[nightcobra]

a question for john epler if i may:

for both DA:O and DA2 the animations for conversations were a bit limited from what i can tell as after a while one could see the repeating motions making the characters seem more like puppets rather than active participants in the conversation with few exceptions (such as riordan's explanation of the blights and grey wardens as walks around the room and looks into the inside of a cage).
For DA3 with the frostbite engine, are any of the conversation animations being ported to the new engine or are you tackling those in a different way? such as mo-cap acting like in "the last of us" or "uncharted" for important characters and scenes? or would that approach be too costly or rather make the quality between the animations of major and minor npcs too disparate from each other breaking the suspension of disbelief?

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:39 .

[Direwolf0294]

I don't think, "it will eventually look outdated" is a good excuse for a game not using realistic graphics and instead using stylized. Who cares if it eventually looks dated? When it first comes out, it's awesome, and just because it won't look great in 10 years compared to games coming out then, doesn't mean you can't go back and play it and still enjoy it. Also, stylized games eventually look dated too. Just look at some of WoW's older models, or games like JSRF.