1685 réponses à ce sujet

[kaymarierose]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Isabela wasn't bisexual?

Right. Some people are *sure* that the companions in DA II were bisexual. Some people are *sure* that they were playersexual. It's nice that you have a personal preference but your opinion is not fact and you shouldn't declare it to be.

At no point was I declaring anything I said as fact. If it was seen as such, then I apologize.

I specifically stated that "unless otherwise specified". Twice, in-fact. Perhaps you missed that?

Maybe the wording is better understood written as "implicitly determined" by means of player?

I consider my sexuality an identifying trait. It's fine if you don't feel the same about your sexuality, but perhaps you shouldn't demand that of others.

I was not demanding anything of anyone. If you wish to be identified by your sexuality, then that is your perogative, you may believe however you choose, I'm not going to challenge you. It is in my opinion that identifyablility by sexuality should not be a thing in a video game, it's a personal preference. Referring back to the bolded portion of my post. There is a very important distinction between the two. A more direct example being "that gay character" vs "that character with the brown hair and blue eyes". One does not identify someone by being "that straight person", they are just a person. Would it not be the same for a person who is not straight? That they are not simply a person, they are a homosexual person? Do you understand my meaning? 

To conclude, my post being my opinion was implied. My intention is not to tell people what to do or what to believe, I'm only explaining how I see it, to help better understand why I said something. My wording may have been misconstrude as such a demand, but that is not the case. I hope I've better clarified myself.

Lets continue with the regularly scheduled F/F romance thread discussion, shall we?

Modifié par kaymarierose, 14 septembre 2013 - 03:59 .

[Sir George Parr]

easygame88 wrote...

kaymarierose wrote...

I've already got my Inquisitor all planned out and I'd be really sad if Cassandra isn't available for F/F romance. She's the next Bioware Woman, in my opinion. She appeared to show interest in FemHawke over M!Hawke in DA2, when she said "romantic" instead of "heroic" during the interrogation with Varric (I don't know, maybe I'm interpreting it wrong... eh.), and... and, yeah, Cassandra F/F romance.

That, or player-sexual is the way to go. DA2 did it well.

I believe she says that if you defeat the Arishok in one on one combat regardless of Hawke's gender. At least she used the word "romantic" in that scene for all my male hawke playthroughs. But yes, I hope she is available to both genders, assuming she will be a LI.

  Its another conversation she has with varric about Hawke building herself up from nothing. That leaves me with the impression that she is more than a little besotted with Female Hawke.

[XHorrorShowX]

XM-417 wrote...

easygame88 wrote...

kaymarierose wrote...

I've already got my Inquisitor all planned out and I'd be really sad if Cassandra isn't available for F/F romance. She's the next Bioware Woman, in my opinion. She appeared to show interest in FemHawke over M!Hawke in DA2, when she said "romantic" instead of "heroic" during the interrogation with Varric (I don't know, maybe I'm interpreting it wrong... eh.), and... and, yeah, Cassandra F/F romance.

That, or player-sexual is the way to go. DA2 did it well.

I believe she says that if you defeat the Arishok in one on one combat regardless of Hawke's gender. At least she used the word "romantic" in that scene for all my male hawke playthroughs. But yes, I hope she is available to both genders, assuming she will be a LI.

  Its another conversation she has with varric about Hawke building herself up from nothing. That leaves me with the impression that she is more than a little besotted with Female Hawke.

Not to dash any hopes or headcanons, but I played this part last night with Fem Hawke and have played before as Male Hawke. Varric teases her about having a crush on male Hawke while having a case of "hero worship" for female Hawke, which triggers Cassandra's "Why? Because I have respect for a woman who built herself up from nothing?". I don't get the impression that Cassandra is interested in Female Hawke romantically, but the same could be said for Male Hawke. Nor am I saying that that is the nail in the coffin and Cass definitely won't be a S/S LI in Inquisition, I just felt like pointing that out.  I don't think Cass is into Hawke, male or female. Whether she'll be into the Inquisitor at all either remains to be seen!

[Former_Fiend]

Deventh wrote...

Isabela and Morrigan. These 2 are my all time favourite characters in the Dragon Age universe so far. I am really hoping we get to romance them as a female character

I think that if there is one sad truth in the Dragon Age universe, it is that Morrigan is undoubtedly straight.

[Ailith Tycane]

It doesn't seem to make sense that they would have all romance options available to all characters in the previous game and then suddenly take that option away. If they did I would be extremely disappointed.

[Dermain]

Qyla wrote...

Myrkale wrote...

Qyla wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

I think the way ME3 did it, where specific characters were gay, straight or bisexual, instead of the whole cast being bisexual or ambiguous, is the way to go.

There should be one or two characters that are of the lesbian persuasion. As for who they should be.... who knows? I'll leave that open.

This. saying I want x race chara to be a LI (in any case) just sound odd to me, we should be waiting for charas personality, story and involvment in the DA world and with our chara, not acting like we are choosing our plastic doll to play with.

If characters were romancable regardless of the PC's gender it would be preferable if you had to inquire about it first, instead of going the Anders route where he just comes out and starts hitting on you. Make it subtle so that people can head canon it out of their precious playthroughs. Granted, they will still metagame and complain, but it would be an improvement.

i didnt' get your point 

Let's see if I can phrase it without as much condescension, and ideally a bit simpler.

Say there are four romancable characters in the game, and each can be romanced regardless of the player's character. The ideal way to do this would be to make the player actively pursue interest in one of the romance options. None of the romance characters would show an obvious interest in the player until the player has taken an action, unless such an action would fit their established character. For some fluff, each of the romancable characters could mention their previous love life, and could even show some hesitancy towards a romance depending on the previous history. 

I believe some of the outrage over the Anders romance in DA2 was over the fact that he overtly hit on male characters after dealing with Karl, and also how he admited that he had fallen in love with Karl which only occured with male Hawkes. This makes it hard for people to "head canon" Anders being gay/bisexual out of their games as he openly admits it as long as Hawke is male.

Merril's romance is handled a bit better mostly because she doesn't have any history in previous games showing what gender she is attracted to. She also has lines that reference the gender of Hawke in how she feels about their relationship. I forget if she hits on Hawke prior to Hawke's initiaiton of the romance, but it is easier to discount what her orientation actually is.

Back on topic, if Cassandra/Vivienne/Female elf happen to be romancable regardless of the Inquisitors gender it would be best if the player had to start the romance before the character started flirting. If the companion has to flirt with the inqusitor first, it would be best if there were conversation options that would not cause the companion to lose *insert relevant aproval rating name here* with the player.

kaymarierose wrote...
Also, the term "bisexual" is very often misused throughout the forums. The characters of Dragon Age 2 were not bisexual, they were player-sexual. They developed a known sexuality as the romance was pursued.

Very true, sadly poor implementation allows people to complain about X companion being bisexual etc.

Modifié par Myrkale, 14 septembre 2013 - 11:18 .

[Ailith Tycane]

Myrkale wrote...

Qyla wrote...

Myrkale wrote...

Qyla wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

I think the way ME3 did it, where specific characters were gay, straight or bisexual, instead of the whole cast being bisexual or ambiguous, is the way to go.

There should be one or two characters that are of the lesbian persuasion. As for who they should be.... who knows? I'll leave that open.

This. saying I want x race chara to be a LI (in any case) just sound odd to me, we should be waiting for charas personality, story and involvment in the DA world and with our chara, not acting like we are choosing our plastic doll to play with.

If characters were romancable regardless of the PC's gender it would be preferable if you had to inquire about it first, instead of going the Anders route where he just comes out and starts hitting on you. Make it subtle so that people can head canon it out of their precious playthroughs. Granted, they will still metagame and complain, but it would be an improvement.

i didnt' get your point 

Let's see if I can phrase it without as much condescension, and ideally a bit simpler.

Say there are four romancable characters in the game, and each can be romanced regardless of the player's character. The ideal way to do this would be to make the player actively pursue interest in one of the romance options. None of the romance characters would show an obvious interest in the player until the player has taken an action, unless such an action would fit their established character. For some fluff, each of the romancable characters could mention their previous love life, and could even show some hesitancy towards a romance depending on the previous history. 

I believe some of the outrage over the Anders romance in DA2 was over the fact that he overtly hit on male characters after dealing with Karl, and also how he admited that he had fallen in love with Karl which only occured with male Hawkes. This makes it hard for people to "head canon" Anders being gay/bisexual out of their games as he openly admits it as long as Hawke is male.

Merril's romance is handled a bit better mostly because she doesn't have any history in previous games showing what gender she is attracted to. She also has lines that reference the gender of Hawke in how she feels about their relationship. I forget if she hits on Hawke prior to Hawke's initiaiton of the romance, but it is easier to discount what her orientation actually is.

Back on topic, if Cassandra/Vivienne/Female elf happen to be romancable regardless of the Inquisitors gender it would be best if the player had to start the romance before the character started flirting. If the companion has to flirt with the inqusitor first, it would be best if there were conversation options that would not cause the companion to lose *insert relevant aproval rating name here* with the player.

kaymarierose wrote...
Also, the term "bisexual" is very often misused throughout the forums. The characters of Dragon Age 2 were not bisexual, they were player-sexual. They developed a known sexuality as the romance was pursued.

Very true, sadly poor implementation allows people to complain about X companion being bisexual etc.

What if Anders actually was bisexual though and it actually was in his character to flirt with dudes? I know the whole "playersexual" thing has been described over and over and beaten to death, but I was always under the impression that Isabella and Anders actually were, unabshed bisexuals. 

[Dermain]

Ailith430 wrote...
What if Anders actually was bisexual though and it actually was in his character to flirt with dudes? I know the whole "playersexual" thing has been described over and over and beaten to death, but I was always under the impression that Isabella and Anders actually were, unabshed bisexuals. 

If Anders is bisexual then that's great. My main complaint is that he mentions his relationship with Karl to a male Hawke, but he never mentions it to a female Hawke. For a female Hawke you have too metagame that relationship into the game. Anders also did not show any interest in women if Hawke was a male, while he did when Hawke was female which is mainly due to bad implementation.

Zeveran was always open about what he was interested in regardless of the player's gender. Leliana was also open, but she seemed to have more of a preferance for female Wardens which is also fine. If *Female companion name* was "player sexual" they could go with the Zeveran/Leliana route.

[Sir George Parr]

XHorrorShowX wrote...


Not to dash any hopes or headcanons, but I played this part last night with Fem Hawke and have played before as Male Hawke. Varric teases her about having a crush on male Hawke while having a case of "hero worship" for female Hawke, which triggers Cassandra's "Why? Because I have respect for a woman who built herself up from nothing?". I don't get the impression that Cassandra is interested in Female Hawke romantically, but the same could be said for Male Hawke. Nor am I saying that that is the nail in the coffin and Cass definitely won't be a S/S LI in Inquisition, I just felt like pointing that out.  I don't think Cass is into Hawke, male or female. Whether she'll be into the Inquisitor at all either remains to be seen!

If you didn't get that impression that's fair enough. But you have to also be open to the idea that others out there have that impression about Cassandra and will have extrapolated from the data supplied by the developers.

[WildOrchid]

kaymarierose wrote...


I'll be satisfied if I can romance Cassandra as a female Inquisitor.

All of this... but don't bother, everyone has explained the term playersexuality but nodoby seems to understand.

Also, a plea: Can I use your Cassandra sig as well?

[WildOrchid]

XHorrorShowX wrote...


Not to dash any hopes or headcanons, but I played this part last night with Fem Hawke and have played before as Male Hawke. Varric teases her about having a crush on male Hawke while having a case of "hero worship" for female Hawke, which triggers Cassandra's "Why? Because I have respect for a woman who built herself up from nothing?". I don't get the impression that Cassandra is interested in Female Hawke romantically, but the same could be said for Male Hawke. Nor am I saying that that is the nail in the coffin and Cass definitely won't be a S/S LI in Inquisition, I just felt like pointing that out.  I don't think Cass is into Hawke, male or female. Whether she'll be into the Inquisitor at all either remains to be seen!

That of course, doesn't state Cassandra's sexuality. Even a lesbian can admire a man without being sexually attracted to him. Strange, huh?

(My post is not directed to you only but to people who keep bringing up the Varric scene, as if there's any proof of Cass's sexuality there.)

[Qyla]

[quote]  Xilizhra wrote...

If you have to say it...

[/quote]

please tell me how stating that I'm not homophobic when I'm most likely going to be called one is wrong

[quote] kaymarierose wrote...

Player-sexual is a video game term, not a real-life application term.

[/quote]

a videogame is a videogame but in this dev tries to make another world and believably telling us a story about this world.

[quote] kaymarierose wrote...

Unless otherwise stated, the characters open for romance are player-sexual, they lack a "known" sexuality.

Only because you don't know something it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. For example until Merril talks to Hawke and explains that's due to the whole Eluvian thing that she started to use blood magic you didn't know why and how Merril learned it, but that doesn't mean that i she didn't tell you that it didn't happened. Character don't just appear. In their world they have lived a whole life before meeting your chara, you just don't know about that.

[quote] kaymarierose wrote...
Also, the term "bisexual" is very often misused throughout the forums. The characters of Dragon Age 2 were not bisexual, they were player-sexual. They developed a known sexuality as the romance was pursued.

[quote]

has ever any writer said this? A word form them would mark the end of this endless discussion, but otherwise you can't affirm this as it is the one and only truth.

[quote] kaymarierose wrote...

Although your character trait point has some merit, the romances within the games are entirely optional, and I see no reason to restrict a potential romance option simply because you play as one gender over the other. 

[quote]

I see the reason instead: as I saidI think that a chara sexuality is a part of that chara and cut it because the player wants to romance that chara no matter what it's just sad imo. When I first played DA2 I wanted to romance Merril but I thought she wasn't avaible for a f/f romance. While being a little sad for it I was totally ok with it, so I just thought "So my Hawke will be in a unrequitted love"

[quote] kaymarierose wrote...

In addition, sexualities that differ from heterosexual are rarely portrayed as a normalcy, even unintentionally.

[/quote]

I have never seen even a hint of homophobia in DA and it's most unlikely to be ever shown just to avoid the whole "Bioware is homophobic" thing.

[quote] kaymarierose wrote...

The distinction between a homosexual character and a character who happens to be homosexual is immense, and has shown to be difficult to differentiate between the two.

[/quote]

People can't "happen to be homosexual" someone can have those preferences or not. The fact that those tendency are shown or not doesn't matter: their are there, just like...I dunno...the "red hair" genetic trait. Maybe it isn't shown, but it's there.

Example from DA2: Anders tells only to male Hawke that he was in love with Karl but that doesn't mean that if Hawke is female tha didn't happened. I had the feeling that he was in a relationship with Karl since I saw his reaction to Tranquil Karl. Maybe it's just that he doesn't feel like to share that thing.

Example from real life: I have a boyfriend and I'm a  female. So you would say "she's straight" so...am I straight? Nope. I am bisexual but my preferences don't change because i bonded with a male and the fact that I didn't tell him that I'm bisexual it doesn't mean that I'm not, I just didn't tell him. (Oh yes, I'm soooo homophobic! )
[quote] kaymarierose wrote...

Sexuality should not be used as an identifying trait. 

[/quote]

Why? Is a part of who they are. I've seen movie and episode of tv shows centred on a chara sexuality and they where able to build up a really interesting story.

[caradoc2000]

Isabela was trisexual: men, women, dwarves in drag.

[Bionuts]

Would be angry if my female elf can't romance Cassy.

[XHorrorShowX]

WildOrchid wrote...

XHorrorShowX wrote...


Not to dash any hopes or headcanons, but I played this part last night with Fem Hawke and have played before as Male Hawke. Varric teases her about having a crush on male Hawke while having a case of "hero worship" for female Hawke, which triggers Cassandra's "Why? Because I have respect for a woman who built herself up from nothing?". I don't get the impression that Cassandra is interested in Female Hawke romantically, but the same could be said for Male Hawke. Nor am I saying that that is the nail in the coffin and Cass definitely won't be a S/S LI in Inquisition, I just felt like pointing that out.  I don't think Cass is into Hawke, male or female. Whether she'll be into the Inquisitor at all either remains to be seen!

That of course, doesn't state Cassandra's sexuality. Even a lesbian can admire a man without being sexually attracted to him. Strange, huh?

(My post is not directed to you only but to people who keep bringing up the Varric scene, as if there's any proof of Cass's sexuality there.)

*sigh* yes, I am aware that a lesbian can admire a man without it being a sexual interest. Don't patronize me, please. 

I think you're missing the point of my post. I never said "Oh yeah well Varric said this about male Hawke and not female therefore it's 100% confirmed Cass is straight soz guys." All I was saying was that I didn't get the impression from Cass that she was "besotted" with Female Hawke for simply stating she admired her for rising in power, but I didn't get the impression that she was into Male Hawke either.

But it's all well and good if you did get that impression and that's fair enough, I hope she's a S/S LI for everyone who wants her  I was just stating my opinion of the subject re: Cassandra's sexuality using the scene with Varric as evidence (or lack thereof); I don't believe it's a valid source of evidence because I don't believe Cassandra is into Hawke regardless of gender, so she very well could be a lesbian, or she could be straight., or maybe she's into both men and women. The ball is in Bioware's park with this one. 

Modifié par XHorrorShowX, 14 septembre 2013 - 02:44 .

[WildOrchid]

^ I didn't patronize you () and I definitely understood your post so don't worry, it wasn't an attack.



I quoted it for others to see, the people who bring the Varric-Cass scene all the time when they're trying to prove that there's something with Cass and dudeHawke, just because Cass said the 'romantic' word and Varric assuses her of having a crush on dudeHawke, like any typical dudebro would think if a woman happens to admire a man for his actions.

[kaymarierose]

Qyla wrote...
a videogame is a videogame but in this dev tries to make another world and believably telling us a story about this world. Only because you don't know something it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. For example until Merril talks to Hawke and explains that's due to the whole Eluvian thing that she started to use blood magic you didn't know why and how Merril learned it, but that doesn't mean that i she didn't tell you that it didn't happened. Character don't just appear. In their world they have lived a whole life before meeting your chara, you just don't know about that. 

Regardless, it will always be a video game world, and not everything will be realistic, no matter what it is. Unless it's stated or implied that someone is one thing over the other, the characters effectively lack a sexuality. They're pixels on a screen. It literally does not exist. Lore of a character is not the same thing as a single character trait. Life of a character before they met you is known but not seen, a specified character trait is non-existent until shown otherwise.

has ever any writer said this? A word form them would mark the end of this endless discussion, but otherwise you can't affirm this as it is the one and only truth. 

If you understood the difference between the two terms, it is truth, unless stated or implied otherwise (do you see why this concept is being repeated over and over?). Sexuality, in much of the game, is used as a game mechanic, not a defining trait of the character. There are more fleshed out character personal lives that qualify to the exception. Isabela being a previously used example. Due to her described personal life it is implied that she bisexual (notice that I said implied, this not mean that she IS bisexual). In contrast, a character like Merrill, her past romantic related pursuants or interests are unspecified, therefore, her known sexuality shows when a player pursues the romance, regardless of gender. It is otherwise non-existent. Hence being player-sexual.

I have never seen even a hint of homophobia in DA and it's most unlikely to be ever shown just to avoid the whole "Bioware is homophobic" thing.

No no no no, homophobia is so not what I meant. I have always been proud of how supportive Bioware is of romances other than hetero. You interpreted that in the complete OPPOSITE direction. This has absolutely nothing to do with "homophobia". That will forever be something you brought into the conversation, not I.

People can't "happen to be homosexual" someone can have those preferences or not. The fact that those tendency are shown or not doesn't matter: their are there, just like...I dunno...the "red hair" genetic trait. Maybe it isn't shown, but it's there.

Example from DA2: Anders tells only to male Hawke that he was in love with Karl but that doesn't mean that if Hawke is female tha didn't happened. I had the feeling that he was in a relationship with Karl since I saw his reaction to Tranquil Karl. Maybe it's just that he doesn't feel like to share that thing.

Example from real life: I have a boyfriend and I'm a  female. So you would say "she's straight" so...am I straight? Nope. I am bisexual but my preferences don't change because i bonded with a male and the fact that I didn't tell him that I'm bisexual it doesn't mean that I'm not, I just didn't tell him. (Oh yes, I'm soooo homophobic! )

My meaning on the topic is going completely over your head. You don't understand the difference between identifying someone as "that gay person" vs. "the person with blue eyes who just so happens to be gay". Notice that being gay is not the defining factor. You do not identify someone as that "straight person", they are just a person. Just as a "gay person" is just a person, there is no reason to throw "gay" in there as if it is not a normal occurrence.

As for your RL example. No. As I wrote up above, A F/F or M/M romance does not mean a person is homosexual, just as a F/M romance does not mean someone is heterosexual. You really should read more carefully.

I can't explain the difference between the concepts any simpler than I already have. I'm sorry if you still don't understand. It's time to move on.

[Bionuts]

Isabela is bisexual. Origins shows this pretty clearly.

[kaymarierose]

WildOrchid wrote...
All of this... but don't bother, everyone has explained the term playersexuality but nodoby seems to understand.

Also, a plea: Can I use your Cassandra sig as well?

Oh yes, I am quite done with that now.

And, of course.

[Alexius]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Deventh wrote...

Isabela and Morrigan. These 2 are my all time favourite characters in the Dragon Age universe so far. I am really hoping we get to romance them as a female character

I think that if there is one sad truth in the Dragon Age universe, it is that Morrigan is undoubtedly straight.

That made me laugh...

And then it didn't.

[daveliam]

I tend to agree with the people who see Isabela as bisexual but Merrill as "playersexual". I have never romanced Merrill since I only played FemHawke once and went with Isabela, but I don't remember Merrill expressing any interest in females in a MaleHawke playthrough. In fact, since she's more of a wide eyed innocent character, she doesn't really strike me as having a defined sexuality from what we've seen. I'm not saying she doesn't have one because everyone does (even asexuality is a form of sexuality), but I just don't think we have evidence to indicate either way that she has a preference outside of "playersexual". I certainly wouldn't say that she is definitely bisexual since to have evidence supporting that statement, we would need to see her express interest in both males and females, which I haven't seen.

[Bionuts]

daveliam wrote...

I tend to agree with the people who see Isabela as bisexual but Merrill as "playersexual". I have never romanced Merrill since I only played FemHawke once and went with Isabela, but I don't remember Merrill expressing any interest in females in a MaleHawke playthrough. In fact, since she's more of a wide eyed innocent character, she doesn't really strike me as having a defined sexuality from what we've seen. I'm not saying she doesn't have one because everyone does (even asexuality is a form of sexuality), but I just don't think we have evidence to indicate either way that she has a preference outside of "playersexual". I certainly wouldn't say that she is definitely bisexual since to have evidence supporting that statement, we would need to see her express interest in both males and females, which I haven't seen.

It's "herosexual".

Let's be honest here.... there are some straight men/women who would definitely drop their clothes for their lifetime hero...

U know is true

[syllogi]

I'm going to ask again, please, everyone, when someone comes into this thread to debate the bi and/or playersexuality issue, could we all bring it back on topic? This was a thread created to talk about what kind of f/f romances players want. This thread *will* be locked if people indulge the rude, selfish people who ignore the intended topic to whine about a subject that has been beaten to death.

To come into this thread just to complain about the sexuality of DA characters is either deliberately trying to get the thread locked, in which case you're a jerk, or you genuinely don't care about the wishes of players who actually want their female player characters to have the ability to romance female non-player characters, in which case you're being selfish, rude, or at the very least, thoughtless.

[Ianamus]

I have really mixed feelings about "playersexuality" at the moment. I love the fact that it gave everyone the same number of choices, but it is also limiting the games in a way. One of the next big steps representation-wise in my opinion would be to have an explicitly homosexual companion, but we are never going to have that using the "playersexual" approach unless they are non-romanceable.

I'd like to see female companions exclusively available to female protagonists, like Traynor (but as a companion rather than an NPC), and the same for a male companion. It's just a shame this can't realistically happen without more romances as a whole or less options. 

Modifié par EJ107, 14 septembre 2013 - 07:18 .

[WildOrchid]

kaymarierose wrote...

And, of course.

Thanks. <3