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[Blackrising]

SgtElias wrote...

bluebeam wrote...

Anyway, trying to stay on topic (since this topic valiantly resisted over 50 pages without derailing to the point of being locked)... nobody else thinks Vivienne would be interesting as LI? No? Just me?

From the, like, two lines she had in the PAX demo, she sounds like she's (possibly?) voiced by Natasha Little (Sith Warrior in SW:TOR), and if so, I'd be up for romancing her for that reason alone. I love that woman's voice!

That said, I'm sort of hopeful about Sera (or blond elf shown in some of the concept art). She looks . . . fun!

Glad this thread made a reappearance.

I very much doubt Vivienne is gonna be a LI.
I wouldn't mind, but I doubt it.

I'm also really interested in Sera. She seems incredibly fun and could be perfect for the stoic character I will inevitably play at one point.
Plus, so far, the female LIs have always been on very opposite ends of the spectrum. We had Morrigan, who was very sarcastic, pragmatic and didn't think very much of love, and Leliana, who was rather gentle, optimistic and romantic.
Then we had Isabela with her 'screw everything and everyone' attitude and self-confidence and Merrill, the adorably naive and innocent little elf.

I don't think that would change in DA:I.
I'm personally sure that Cassandra is gonna be a LI. She seems like a very pragmatic and serious person. So it seems like it would make sense for Sera, apparently fun-loving and a bit childish, to be the other LI.
Judging by the tavern concept art, Sera and Cassandra are gonna have wonderful spats.

[Blackrising]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why do you think Femhawke got the short end with Merrill?

A bit of a short end.
It's really only because 'my family would disapprove because we're gonna have human kids' seems a bit more serious and dramatic than 'you're so perfect senpai'. And I like drama.
As I said, it's pretty subjective.
*shrug*

[Xilizhra]

Blackrising wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why do you think Femhawke got the short end with Merrill?

A bit of a short end.
It's really only because 'my family would disapprove because we're gonna have human kids' seems a bit more serious and dramatic than 'you're so perfect senpai'. And I like drama.
As I said, it's pretty subjective.
*shrug*

Should it have been "my family would disapprove because we'd have no kids at all?"

[Blackrising]

Xilizhra wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why do you think Femhawke got the short end with Merrill?

A bit of a short end.
It's really only because 'my family would disapprove because we're gonna have human kids' seems a bit more serious and dramatic than 'you're so perfect senpai'. And I like drama.
As I said, it's pretty subjective.
*shrug*

Should it have been "my family would disapprove because we'd have no kids at all?"

I would have found that more interesting, yes.

[Xilizhra]

Blackrising wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why do you think Femhawke got the short end with Merrill?

A bit of a short end.
It's really only because 'my family would disapprove because we're gonna have human kids' seems a bit more serious and dramatic than 'you're so perfect senpai'. And I like drama.
As I said, it's pretty subjective.
*shrug*

Should it have been "my family would disapprove because we'd have no kids at all?"

I would have found that more interesting, yes.

Well, I wouldn't have found it any worse, so I suppose that works.

As for Cassandra vs. Sera, if those are the only two choices... I'd probably lean toward Sera in the end, but Cassandra might be interesting for philosophical questions... hmmm.

[Aschenglorie]

Xilizhra wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why do you think Femhawke got the short end with Merrill?

A bit of a short end.
It's really only because 'my family would disapprove because we're gonna have human kids' seems a bit more serious and dramatic than 'you're so perfect senpai'. And I like drama.
As I said, it's pretty subjective.
*shrug*

Should it have been "my family would disapprove because we'd have no kids at all?"

I would have found that more interesting, yes.

Well, I wouldn't have found it any worse, so I suppose that works.

As for Cassandra vs. Sera, if those are the only two choices... I'd probably lean toward Sera in the end, but Cassandra might be interesting for philosophical questions... hmmm.

The conversation you both have been having here has helped me nail down what made me most uneasy about Merrill's relationshipe with Marian Hawke.  When Merril romances a male Hawke she comes off as both a little defiant and strong.  She rambles and all, sure, but in mentioning Clan disapproval she acknowledges it and shrugs it off before instigating the romance/kissing Hawke.  She behaves as a person who knows what she wants and will go for it, which is in line with her character.  (If anything, it takes a gutsy person to leave behind the only life she knew to pursue an ideal.)  With a female Hawke, she does instigate the romance by kissing Hawke, but only after telling her that she feels "lesser" than Hawke (in so many words) and then tosses out the word "worship".  It felt really awkward to then begin a relationship with someone who just confessed they feel inferior to me.

Anyway, I too would not have found the "no kids" dialogue any worse, and at least it wouldn't make me feel like I was taking advantage of a person I was entering a relationship with--but maybe that was the point of the dialogue?

And regarding possible romances, I can kind of imagine romance possibilities with Cassandra and the speculated--anticipated Sera, and I like the idea behind both characters, but I wonder what a Vivienne relationship would look like.  Madame de Fer sounds like quite a gal.

Finally, I humbly speculate that at the beginning of the game we find that Cassandra and Varric are already in a committed relationship with one another and the veil tear is actually fan rage.  

Edit for clarity, hope it worked  

Modifié par Aschenglorie, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:15 .

[Bionuts]

I don't think these fantasy relationships should be nitpicked. They're there to show a side of the character. Not mimic real life.

Merril is a good romance for FemHawke, because even if it was very awkward, it showed a side of Merril you wouldn't have seen, otherwise.

[Angrywolves]

Viv will probably be a choice as well.
shrugs.

[Xilizhra]

The conversation you both have been having here has helped me nail down what made me most uneasy about Merrill's relationshipe with Marian Hawke. When Merril romances a male Hawke she comes off as both a little defiant and strong. She rambles and all, sure, but in mentioning Clan disapproval she acknowledges it and shrugs it off before instigating the romance/kissing Hawke. She behaves as a person who knows what she wants and will go for it, which is in line with her character. (If anything, it takes a gutsy person to leave behind the only life she knew to pursue an ideal.) With a female Hawke, she does instigate the romance by kissing Hawke, but only after telling her that she feels "lesser" than Hawke (in so many words) and then tosses out the word "worship". It felt really awkward to then begin a relationship with someone who just confessed they feel inferior to me.

I actually think it made Merrill feel a bit more open to a female Hawke, as she could confess that rather than deflecting it with worries about the clan. I think she feels the same regardless... and the point is to show Merrill that she's not inferior.

[Aschenglorie]

Xilizhra wrote...

The conversation you both have been having here has helped me nail down what made me most uneasy about Merrill's relationshipe with Marian Hawke. When Merril romances a male Hawke she comes off as both a little defiant and strong. She rambles and all, sure, but in mentioning Clan disapproval she acknowledges it and shrugs it off before instigating the romance/kissing Hawke. She behaves as a person who knows what she wants and will go for it, which is in line with her character. (If anything, it takes a gutsy person to leave behind the only life she knew to pursue an ideal.) With a female Hawke, she does instigate the romance by kissing Hawke, but only after telling her that she feels "lesser" than Hawke (in so many words) and then tosses out the word "worship". It felt really awkward to then begin a relationship with someone who just confessed they feel inferior to me.

I actually think it made Merrill feel a bit more open to a female Hawke, as she could confess that rather than deflecting it with worries about the clan. I think she feels the same regardless... and the point is to show Merrill that she's not inferior.

Good point, re: deflecting.  I just watched the MHawke romance on YouTube again and there certainly is an element of that "worship" there.  Just in different form.  

[Bionuts]

One could only imagine how Merril would have been around the Warden.

[Xilizhra]

Bionuts wrote...

One could only imagine how Merril would have been around the Warden.

Mahariel? Probably more open, actually, to another Dalish.

[LobselVith8]

Bionuts wrote...

I don't think these fantasy relationships should be nitpicked. They're there to show a side of the character. Not mimic real life.

Merril is a good romance for FemHawke, because even if it was very awkward, it showed a side of Merril you wouldn't have seen, otherwise. 

I don't think it's a nitpick; their views have been really interesting. I think the analysis of the characters and romances through different eyes can show facets of the characters that we might not have considered before, especially if we never romanced the same sex or a specific character.

[Bionuts]

Xilizhra wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

One could only imagine how Merril would have been around the Warden.

Mahariel? Probably more open, actually, to another Dalish.

Merril was bichy in Origins.

But I could see them growing very close if Merril had accompied her. Makes sense since Merril felt very uncomfortable in Kirkwall.

So, yeah, I agree.

[Bionuts]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

I don't think these fantasy relationships should be nitpicked. They're there to show a side of the character. Not mimic real life.

Merril is a good romance for FemHawke, because even if it was very awkward, it showed a side of Merril you wouldn't have seen, otherwise. 

I don't think it's a nitpick; their views have been really interesting. I think the analysis of the characters and romances through different eyes can show facets of the characters that we might not have considered before, especially if we never romanced the same sex or a specific character.

I guess.

Rivalmance with Merril is my favorite in the series.

I cry so much during the FemHawke/Merril romance

[Ianamus]

Blackrising wrote...

I'd generally approve of a bit of difference between romancing a character with a female and romancing that same character with a male, but DA2 already did that, didn't it?

I can't really speak for Anders and Fenris, as I haven't done their romance more than once while I romanced Isabela twice and Merrill...in every other playthrough.
For Merrill, we had the whole 'my clan would disapprove because our children would be human' vs. 'i could never compete with you' thing.
For Isabela, there was the 'excuse you, elf, Hawke likes Rivaini Rogues so back off you tramp' vs. 'meh' in MotA.
Granted, one of those was exclusive to the DLC, but it did happen.

My only problem with differences is that one romance dialouge might seem worse than the other. That might be a pretty subjective thing, but looking at these examples, it seems to me that FemHawke got a bit of a short end with Merrill, while ManHawke didn't get to enjoy seeing Isabela jealous.
It's not that big of a problem for me though, as long as it doesn't get too bad.

Bigger differences than what we had in DA2 might, in my opinion, be too much. We don't get enough romance scenes to really work out the subtle differences.

tl;dr
DA2 had enough of differences for me. I'm incredibly satisfied with how they handled it.

I thought about this a lot myself when I saw the suggestion that not having the romances differ much based on gender was a 'cheap' way of handling it, and I found that I pretty much agree entirely with what you have said. 

I started thinking about exactly what large differences could arise from gender differences, and the ones that came to mind were 'Unable to have children' 'Potential negative reactions from family or other people' or 'can't marry or have any official partnership' 

To be increadibly honest they are all rather negative things in my mind that I do not want to see explored in a Bioware romance. Treating the romances equally also helps to solidify the fact that there is nothing inherently different between the love of two people of the same gender and two people of different genders.

It's an important message that isn't really explored in most media, where stories involving a homosexual couple almost always revolve around the difficulties they face due to their orientation, while straight romance stories just focus on the romance itself. I actually quite like that Bioware leave gender out of it for the most part, and that the conflicts arise from the relationship itself and do not generally differ between genders. You don't see that much. 

Modifié par EJ107, 15 septembre 2013 - 12:48 .

[LobselVith8]

Aschenglorie wrote...

Good point, re: deflecting.  I just watched the MHawke romance on YouTube again and there certainly is an element of that "worship" there.  Just in different form.

Yeah, I can see that, re: Merrill did say Hawke as a Dalish elf would likely have brought about a new elven kingdom.

[Xilizhra]

Bionuts wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

I don't think these fantasy relationships should be nitpicked. They're there to show a side of the character. Not mimic real life.

Merril is a good romance for FemHawke, because even if it was very awkward, it showed a side of Merril you wouldn't have seen, otherwise. 

I don't think it's a nitpick; their views have been really interesting. I think the analysis of the characters and romances through different eyes can show facets of the characters that we might not have considered before, especially if we never romanced the same sex or a specific character.

I guess.

Rivalmance with Merril is my favorite in the series.

I cry so much during the FemHawke/Merril romance

<_<

[Bionuts]

Xilizhra wrote...

<_<

I once spent an hour re-watching their first romance scene.

I like the romance Merril because her desperation to restore the Eluvian is a reflection of the Dalish and their desire to find their past.

And I love elves.

[Xilizhra]

Bionuts wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

<_<

I once spent an hour re-watching their first romance scene.

I like the romance Merril because her desperation to restore the Eluvian is a reflection of the Dalish and their desire to find their past.

And I love elves.

That's fine. I was glaring at you for the rivalry part.

[LobselVith8]

Bionuts wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

<_<

I once spent an hour re-watching their first romance scene.

I like the romance Merril because her desperation to restore the Eluvian is a reflection of the Dalish and their desire to find their past.

And I love elves.  

I prefer the Friendship Romance with Merrill. Supporting her endeavor, trusting her research, respecting her intellect. Rivalry with Merrill is... off-putting. That said, I wonder if variations of the Friendship/Rivalry romance will be avaliable in Inquisition.

[Bionuts]

Xilizhra wrote...


That's fine. I was glaring at you for the rivalry part.

Rivalmance with Merril is good, because she lets her guard down, and eases up her pride. She admits that she knows she's putting her friends in danger, and that she's on a dangerous path.

[Xilizhra]

Bionuts wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


That's fine. I was glaring at you for the rivalry part.

Rivalmance with Merril is good, because she lets her guard down, and eases up her pride. She admits that she knows she's putting her friends in danger, and that she's on a dangerous path.

Keep in mind that I glared because it was shorter than saying "may the maw of Hell consume your emotionally abusive piece of crap Hawke."

[Bionuts]

Xilizhra wrote...


Keep in mind that I glared because it was shorter than saying "may the maw of Hell consume your emotionally abusive piece of crap Hawke."

My Hawke wasn't abusive. Merril simply disagreed on how she handled things.

[Xilizhra]

Bionuts wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


Keep in mind that I glared because it was shorter than saying "may the maw of Hell consume your emotionally abusive piece of crap Hawke."

My Hawke wasn't abusive. Merril simply disagreed on how she handled things.

I firmly believe the rivalmance is exactly that.